Audioholics is currently compiling a list for the ultimate subwoofer shootout. There are no limitations in price or size. Both sealed and ported designs will be in the testing and compared against one another. In the initial list the EP800 is slated. This is all subject to change.
_______________________________________________________________________

Here is Genes Starting List:

• SVS PB13-Ultra
http://svsound.com/products-sub-box-pb13ultra.cfm

• EMPtek SE-1818
41 x 30 x 18 (huge box, dual 18s)

• RBH Sound 1010-SEP
http://www.rbhsound.com/product_deta...?id=1010-SEP/R

• Elemental Designs A7-900
http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_...roducts_id=606

• Axiom Audio EP800
http://www.axiomaudio.com/ep800.html

• JL Audio F212
http://home.jlaudio.com/products_subs.php?prod_id=375

• Epik Empire
http://epiksubwoofers.com/empire.html

• Paradigm Signature Sub 2
http://www.paradigm.com/products/par...e-series/sub-2

• Earthquake MKVI-15
http://www.earthquakesound.com/mkvi.htm

• Revel Ultima2
http://www.revelspeakers.com/Product....aspx?prdid=35

• Klipsch P-312W
http://www.klipsch.com/na-en/product...pecifications/

Genes Testing Plan (in development):

MAX SPL vs Frequency per CEA2010 method or equivalent (using meter ground plane)
Distortion vs SPL
Group Delay
Transient Response
Mechanical Noise test
Subjective sound quality

Reference: http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67724

This is certainly exciting for Axiomites!

Doc,

This is Gene's list, but looks like an "invitation". He states first 5-6 companies to submit their product will be tested. Hopefully we will see entries from those listed.

Its just a starting list as I pointed out and subject to change. Subwoofers that are not on the list can be added as well. It seems Axiom will be getting an initial invitation to participate if they want. Either way, there are going to be some elite products being tested here. The results will be interesting in a shootout like this and should be fun following it, whatever ends up being tested. There is not much informaton on the EP800 since its a new product, so for the EP800 owners out there and individuals looking for new subs, it would be really special.

I would love to see the EP800 in the ring, and it would be great to see all of those others represented as well.

Me too. There is a lot potential in the initial list. What I am the most interested in if there will be correlation to the objective measurements and subjective listening evaluations. Hopefully, the subjective listening is done blind.

About 4 of the links are broken.

One sub that they should add might be hard to beat is the Martin Logan Descent i!
After all, how can you compete with this . . .

I've had my eye on the Epik subs for a while. I'm curious how they do.

Yeah, but they stopped making their top of the line sub, the Conquest.

I love that, max volume 11, ala Spinal Tap

The Epik Empire looks very interesting at $799.

I agree - the Epik does look good. I've always liked Revel and especially their B15 sub. Dual Empires Vs. the single B15; that would be interesting.

http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/revel_b15.htm

For this testing they will not be comparing dual subwoofers to a single subwoofer.

The Audioholics thread says that Axiom declined to participate. I was looking forward to the EP800 getting some attention and a chance for comparison with other subs in its class. What gives?

-Dave

I was hoping too that the EP800 would be involved and the fact it is a new product with little exposure. Gene knows his stuff as well as anybody else in this industry and with "shootouts" such as these I know he would not subscribe to subjective comments such as "night and day" and "blowing out of the water", which scare a lot of manufactures away for tests such as these. In fairness, Axiom is not the only company that declined.

If most decline, it opens the possibility for smaller, relatively unknown companies getting started in the market. After all, it is free publicity and tests such as these bring lots of additional traffic to their website.

I was hoping, too. Dang.

You'll just have to console yourself by listening to its awesomeness by yourself.

Which is better than a review by anyone else.

I'm glad to see the 5 names on that list are not your usual suspects! I know ID can often provide the best best bang for your buck but for us Canuck's it's not always the case.

Just my 2 cents...

PS:I know where my money is going !

Just as reference, here is the list of manufacturers that will be taking part (most current).

The 5 brands will be:

* RBH Sound
* Rythmik
* PSB
* Klipsch
* Funkywaves

Nothing against Audioholics, but it's not exactly shaping up to be the "Ultimate Subwoofer Shootout" without representation from Hsu, SVS, Velodyn, Paradigm, Epik, Axiom and Outlaw.

Not exactly the household names or the usual recommended companies, but that is not to say their products are inferior or the testing is pointless because of it. In fact most likely they will be not. Most of the companies you mentioned (the big names) it seems where on the initial asking list and they declined for whatever reason.

Like I said, nothing against Audioholics if many are choosing not to participate.... though I think I would have nailed down the participants before announcing the "Ultimate Subwoofer Shootout" to ensure that it would actually be so.

Or a reasonable facsimile!

It isn't exactly the initial list but there are some interesting companies notably Funky Waves and a few new subwoofers that have yet to be released will be tested. Should be interesting.

Agreed Billy. It is interesting that the established brands are not interested.

The inclusion of Funky Waves is really cool because he uses excellent drivers from the DIY world.

Looks like the typical article in the Audio magazines that I've pre-viewed recently. A bunch of nothing about stuff I'm not in the slightest interested in. So I didn't spend my money on any of them.

Not only excellent drivers, some of the best quality subwoofer drivers in the world. The driver itself can cost more than some commercial subs.

Well, I've owned an SVS...albeit it was only a pb10 but my custom sub built by Funkywaves is head and shoulders above it or the pb12 for that matter. It was designed using the AE av12x because I was looking for a ported sub with on board amp for easy plug and play...but for his higher end subs he only uses the best materials available (ie: LMS-drivers) & baltic birch ply for his enclosures because its ligher but stronger than MDF and in the long run it cost less to ship. Let's not forget being Canadian....Outlaw, Hsu and Epik just to name a few aren't that easy an option for us.

Regards, Bill....

Lets see a picture of this bad boy!

If I may ask, is the custom sub you have similar in price to the SVS models; either the pb10 or pb12.

I only wonder about the resonance of Baltic Birch over MDF, but with the way he braces everything it most likely isn't a factor.

It's in my sig over at AH under the same user name . As for a cost comparison the pb12 costs 779.00 cdn before taxes, factor that in...it cost me maginally more which included shipping from BC to Onatrio..but I was lucky due to a surplus in material and some other contributing factors so <1000.00.

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k146/parsal106/IMG_0013.jpg[/IMG]

Yeah. Funkywaves was mentioned here recently (a few days ago actually) and I noticed it and linked to your sig here. I was hoping for a bigger picture like the one above.

http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=318698#Post318698

Very nice design! Love the look of that grill too. So unique.

Heh..I didn't even know about that thread when I referenced my sig in that eariler post . It's real walnut venner finished with expresso stain in a satin finish. In due time, I hope to transition over to the M22 custom in walls and hope Axiom will be ble to colour match the sub.

Thanks again, Bill

Axiom does do custom finishes. If you can get a sample of the finish from Funkywaves (or if you have one available) there should not be a problem with getting a good match between your speakers and the sub I think.

I've already done some colour matching using the available walnut, but I will likely provde them(Axiom) with my sample.

Sorry for the thread derail....back to our regular programming!

Sincerely, Bill

Gene is claiming it to be an ultimate-shootout of subwoofers. That is, the testing methodology is going to be some of the most rigorous, even if the subjects are not so ultimate.

Aaaahhhh...

I agree with Mark that calling it and “Ultimate Subwoofer Shootout” is a bit of a misnomer with many leading brands missing. However, I understand those brands not wanting to participate since there is really no upside for them. Many of them are Audioholics advertisers so if they do good in the shootout people will claim that’s why. If they do poorly it’s even worse. If up against a new less well known brand there is nothing for the established brands to gain.

OTOH if the first round had been kept secret until several established brands were recruited to fill all the slots there may have been a better chance of seeing an Axiom, HSU, Epic, ED, face-off. I don’t see SVS entering after their falling out with Audioholics.

A more civilized language (something you could feed into a compiler) would use parentheses or postfix notation to make it clear whether we were talking about "a Shootout between Ultimate Subwoofers" or an "Ultimate Shootout between Subwoofers".

While the event may not fully live up to the former, it still seems on track for the latter.

Even for "a Shootout between Ultimate Subwoofers", one has to ask how many of the subwoofers would have to be "Ultimate-ish" in order to justify the name. All of them ? One ? Two ? I would argue that if at least two of the subwoofers fell into the "potentially ultimate" category that would be enough to invoke the "no whining" clause.

(Sorry, I've spending a lot of time reviewing legal agreements recently. It follows me home sometimes ;))

I agree with the title Ultimate being misleading but I for one am happy to see that Rythmik and Funkywaves in attendance. They each bring something a little different into this, one deveops and build drivers and DIY kits and the other build excellent custom products. What other critiera do you need. As for some of the aformentioned subs ...Axiom's turning down the invite really suprised me, but for the the others like Epik(who don't even ship to Canada), ED(we know of their CS problems) and we're all aware of svs pb-13 ultra.

I agree that it’s nice to see a list of less well known names among the contenders. I like more competition.



Are you allowed to say that. I thought they were a sacred cow here or am I mixing up my forums.

Are you allowed to say that. I thought they were a sacred cow here or am I mixing up my forums.
[/quote]

Well this is the Axiom forum...I just figured not many of those fanboys here...lol.

I was just throwing a rock at someone who jumped my butt for mentioning the CS problems a while ago though it very likely could have been another forum. It was just a little “reconnaissance by fire” (where you shoot up something hoping to get someone to fire back thus giving up their position) on my part.

Looks like changes are pending. Sounds like Gene is trying to keep the footprint of all the subs involved on the same playing field and Klipsch might not meet that requirement...we shall wait and see. Oh and BTW...Svs had a response in regards to why they took a pass which I found interesting...fwiw.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=744172&postcount=123

Regards, Bill

Thanks for the link to the response. Don’t know if you were around a couple years ago but Audioholics and SVS had a falling out over what Audioholics deemed to be marketing by SVS “people” (not sure if employees were used) in forum posts. They even went so far as to sever their advertising relationship. Maybe they getting along better now.

Regardless I thing SVS’s suggestion is a good one. It makes no sense to me to compare grossly mismatched products.

Seems like a very reasonable response, and a good idea.

I was there and kinda have a feel for what happened...its nice to see they still have a mutual & business respect for one another. Sounds like all the the said subs will have to conform to a ported or PR's in their designs...just to level the playing field.

I would really like to see SVS there for a number of reasons, one I have one but its their bottom of the line NSD sub. Two I believe I will be upgrading to another in the next six months or so. (its like having a fast car, even though yours is fast, you want to go faster). I really want to see the EP500 vs the PB 12 Plus (even though they would use the Ultra and Axiom the 600 or 800).

As far as I know only a couple people on this forum has owned an eD sub. I currently have a A5-350 on order. I must admit I am getting a tad bit impatient with the waiting game. If they don't have them shipping very soon I'm going to cancel my order and go with another vendor, which hasn't been picked yet.

I'm certainly no fan boy, that's for sure. They need to get their act together before it's to late.

Hey Rick, maybe you should go with HSU. I know you have always been fond of them.

I've been looking Randy. Right now if the deal falls through with eD I'm looking at an SVS cylinder sub, most likely the PC12-NSD. It's right around the same cost and should be similar in performance to what the A3-300 was.

Has anyone tried a Rhythmik sub? haven't seen much in the way of reviews on them.

I want one!
I wonder what Axiom's R&D dept is hiding in their skunkworks!

It shouldn't be too hard for someone to build a sub that could obliterate all its rivials in a contest like this. But that just isn't a practical course of action and what commercial retailers vie for which explains why some opted out. Since Gene established some fixed parameters and limits they're coming back into the fold...so to speak. I, for one, am very excited for the results because the fw12.x is sorta like my sub only on Roids...jk.

Regards, Bill

SPL is one of the easiest things to design into a sub system. Being able to accurately reproduce those same SPL levels with quality, accuracy and consistency is the challenging part of engineering. I hope that is a major part of the shootout otherwise I wouldn't have an interest.

With Audioholics, I'm sure it will be.

I was reading the Audioholics forum and I saw the EP800 will not be in the shootout...
Why?

Now I don't know if will order the one pair of it...

From earlier in the thread:

If you are going to drop up to 4 grand on subs, it was stated that the products are on track to be tested in October and the results published sometime in Nov/Dec if you want 3rd party information on these products. There are also a few recent entries from SVS and Salk Sound.

On a separate note there is an individual that owns the PB-13 and is going to buy an EP800 and would like to compare the two.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=752222&postcount=205

I don't believe that to be the case as the RBH 1010-SEN uses dual 10"...I could be wrong and even if that were the case, I'm sure Gene would have welcomed Axiom ep600. IMO it still begs the question why!

Axiom declined to participate. That's the long and the short of it.

(As did, evidently, many other of the major players in the field)

I would like to see SVS's new DSP controlled amp equipped subs tested. Not even SVS has data for these units on their site. A friend of mine has their PC-12NSD and it is far more accurate and sensitive than my Outlaw LFM-1 Plus.

Any new subs to the market would be awesome to see. SVS is entering the vaunted PB12-Plus. As for new commercial subwoofers to the market, Rythmik Audio is entering a brand spanking new servo sub, the FV15HP which looks like a interesting product with some neat technology behind it.

That is definitely some interesting tech but I wonder if the voice coils run a bit warm or even hot since they are controlled more tightly.

There's an update on Audioholics about this shootout, and some insanity surrounding it.

http://www.audioholics.com/news/editorials/subwoofer-shootout

In the attached discussion it has been surmised that it was Axiom who was opposed to the groundplane measurements, and pulled advertising from the site.

Well Axiom advertising does seem to be missing from the site now. And come to think of it they haven’t shown up in the “Featured Review” section for awhile.

Wonder if it was, what all went into the decision to pull the advertising. Like they have some hard marketing numbers to indicate that the adds their just weren’t paying off. I for one first discovered Axiom through one of Audioholics recommended systems.

Hard to judge w/o all the facts but it does seem like Axiom has been creating a lot of PR problems for itself in the last year.

No subtle hint there with the tower mentioned, wouldn't be too hard to figure out.

I never put much stock in this stuff anyway since everyone has their favorites and no matter how many people are doing the judging, speaker comparisons are always very subjective. Over the years Audioholics always spoke highly of Axiom products and even visited their plant so I am somewhat surprised at the "falling out" although, I guess every company, from time to time, will change directions in their marketing.

As far as questionable PR is concerned, that doesn't bother me as much as when a company starts to cease communications with its customers about late or non-committed delivery dates on a product which has already been paid for. The forums are starting to fill up with comments like this about "ED", a company that might be "on the brink" located in a town "on the brink"(Newton, Iowa, featured on "Sixty Minutes" two Sundays ago).

That is when I would start to worry.

Kind of reminds me of the shootouts you see when they compare automobiles in magazines. You have a group of people who are interested in track times, another who is interested in bang-for-buck, others who's main focus is reliability or ride quality or economy....It always irks me when you read comments like "The xxxx blew everyone away on the track, so it should have won..."

In a subwoofer shootout, the reviewer imo would need to make it very clear what things they are judging/looking for...outright spl, accuracy, value, quality/reliability....otherwise you will get someone sending a Bugatti Veyron to a family sedan shootout.

AAMOF...I read an email from another member regarding why Axiom declined their participation in this shootout. It was from Alan Loft and he express concern in which Gene outlined in his retort and I'll leave it at that!

Absolutely, other than maybe learning about a new product, I have, in recent years, pretty well ignored these comparisons. The problem always is who is setting the parameters and what will they be to make it fair and accurate to all the participants and do the parameters really mean anything? I learned the folly of this back two or three years ago when one of the major publications was doing a so-called "shoot-out" with about half a dozen newly introduced television monitors viewed by four "experts" all gathered in the same room at the same time and when they summed up all their findings at the end, what was a perceived flaw in one particular model by one "expert" was pleasing to another! So what was the point?

Same old story, in the end you make your own decisions and just do what is right for you.

I trust you guys more than I trust Audioholics or any similarly situated entity.

Unfortunately far too many people use these types of comparisons to proclaim this one is the best and berate the lower rated ones. It still comes down to how each one sounds to each prospective buyers ears, but with poor, unfavorable reviews via a comparison like this, can kill a sub instantly.

And this is very much true. However, if such a shootout produces a result where all the reviewers agreed on a negative issue (e.g. a particular tv had a green tint, a particular sub had reverberations, etc.), information can be gained with reasonable confidence from the results.
The tough part is having a large enough number of samples (i.e. participants) to cover statistical confidence and reduce the chance of personal preference vs. non-perceived characterstics.

I don’t really see the problem with using ground-plane measurement if all the subwoofers are being measured the same way. Coincidentally my subwoofer is sitting on my floor and not on a 90 foot tower in my living room (now that would be one heck of a vaulted ceiling).

Though I do agree with the general sentiment that these types of “shootouts” where products are ranked tend to be problimatic.

I am planing on buying a sub next year. Even though the final choice is up to the customer's ears, I am interested in the results. As previously mentioned, if all the reviewers agree, it can give you an idea if a particular sub would be worth your while to look at or not. Not everybody has a possibility to listen to several subs in the same room in order to make their decision. So if this shootout helps narrowing to a few choices, I think it's good. If one sub that you were looking at is featured in this shootout, you can have an idea to how it performs, same as any other review.
Even though they could return the speakers, a lot of people bought Axiom speakers without ever hearing them before, just bases on the reviews that they have, and are extremely happy with them. So I don't think it's a bad thing IMHO.

When it comes to sub evaluations, the reason why I have always been a little skeptical to the approach is that despite the good intentions of determining and comparing performance, given their specific purpose and limited frequency range, it always seems in the end, reviewers tend to lean toward those subs that have the capability of achieving the highest SPL levels at the lowest frequency ranges with the least distortion. Tell me something that I don't already know.

Based on comparative sub reviews I have seen in the past it is almost always the largest and most expensive model of any manufacturer that sits at or near the top of the reviewers list. Despite Axiom's decision not to take part, I would suspect that the EP800 would have fared quite well.

But how many reviews have you read about that used a proper double blind listening test?

Because all other reviews (which covers virtually every review i've read in any mag or ezine or forum) would naturally rank the subs as you say based on any number of biases from product marketing, to size impressions and simply overdone bass.

The thing that people don't already know seems to be how each company's top model compares to every other one, thus the comparison. Individual sub evaluations I can see the pointlessness of for consumers. So the sub reviews well. But why would a consumer go for this particular model over what all of the competition is offering? The problem is that all of this gear is expensive, so it's not like a lot of people are going to have meaningful input like you can get with customer reviews of more affordable products. We're stuck with the very occasional comparisons which never covers near enough of the offerings. It's always going to be a bit of a shot in the dark in this hobby. Still, I'm not against Audioholics or any other outlet doing what they can to assist consumers. There SHOULD be a reason to choose one product over another.

I would say, regardless of anyone's philosophy on the subject and how we make our choices before hard earned money is spent, I guess, in the final analysis, we should be thankful for the great number of choices available to choose from and for the most part, the vast majority of them are quite good.

I appreciate that you are all focusing on the substance of reviewing subwoofer performance, here. But I think there is a bigger story.

The reason why this is news is because Gene DellaSala chose to make it news by publishing what I think is a pretty nasty, whining editorial. The focus of his diatribe is that "shootouts are a pain, and here's why". Oh, my, the kitchen is hot! I shall wallow in it! DellaSala and his crew are presumably getting paid to opine about their hobby, and nobody but their staff decides on their methodology or messaging. Deciding to do a shootout and then complaining about the dynamics is tiresome, and helps no one. I hope it was cathartic for DellaSala, or something.

Audio is a business for Axiom and for the other represented manufacturers. It is how all the people employed by those companies put food on the table for their families. There is a LOT of risk involved in a subwoofer shootout, because even savvy consumers (unlike Robert Pirsig) believe that you can quantify quality. There is very little upside for any established company. Before participating, any prudent manufacturer would have to trust both the methodology and the editorial biases of the reviewer. And I believe that DellaSala's editorial proves there is a breakdown in trust, if not worse.

Where DellaSala lost it for me is his obvious commingling of the advertising and editorial sides of the Audioholics business. Tsk tsk. Whatever journalistic integrity they may have had is now squandered for me. The entire "Groundplane" section of his editorial is - to me - very clearly "payback" for Axiom pulling its advertising. Which certainly begs the question - if you are going to "payback" former advertisers, why shouldn't I think you are "paying off" current advertisers?

I don't care how Axiom or any other manufacturer spends their advertising dollars - again, it is their business. I do object to being told how rigorous and objective your methods are while you are openly bitter about lost advertising revenue. I thought that Paul Apollonio's last paragraph was particularly McCarthian - "if you don't want to be interrogated, you must have something to hide!"

Puhleeze. Combined with recent assertions about lack of impartiality due to the product lines carried in the Audioholics store, this episode makes me want to boycott anything and everything on that site.

+1 Tom!

+5 Tom!

+2 Tom ... I very rarely go to their site anymore.

Well said, Tom.

+46...or is THE number 42?....I can never remember.

Axiom's EP 600 costs more than $1,800, the EP 800, more than $2,300. Have we not seen a non-trivial number of posts regarding owner problems with Axiom subs on this website?

How would a manufacturer like to see its $2,000+ subwoofer compared unfavorably to an $800 effort from an outfit like Epik? I think I understand why Gene expressed his frustration about manufacturer reactions to an honest shootout - they don't want to participate in an honest shoot out. What they want is glowing reviews in the form of ADVERTORIALS, which are nothing more than advertisements dressed up as an objective review.

Now, as for me, I came to Axiom through some very favorable reviews of the M3 by Ian Masters and others.

There have been shootouts of book shelf speakers in which Axiom's M3s have done very well. I heard nothing about any reluctance from Axiom about a head to head comparison between the M3s and the competition. That's because Axiom's M3s and M22s are Giant Killers.

Of course, Axiom made its reputation on low priced speakers with high end sound quality, in other words, Giant Killers.

Axiom's subs are not low priced. No, they're GIANT PRICED. Better to be a Giant Killer than a humiliated giant. Now, I don't know how Axiom's subs compare to subs from other manufacturers, but it seems like Axiom doesn't want a head to head comparison. That says a lot to me.

Now, I like Axiom products, and every book shelf and floor stander I've bought for the past 10 years (except for a pair of Thiels and Dahlquists) have been made by Axiom. But I'm not here to make excuses for Axiom, or to line up with the faithful when it appears Axiom may not have the confidence in its subs to put them up against the competition unless they're all standing on 90' poles.

There has been an age old 'grumble' about Axiom subs. They cost a ton more compared to SVS and Hsu, and the reviews on the latter brands have always been raving. If SVS and Hsu had more than the plain black options 8 years ago when i was researching, it is likely i would own a Hsu or SVS today over an Axiom sub.

The Axiom subs just didn't seem to find that same good price point like their other speakers have, sadly.

Very fair points, Phil.

I guess my question would be - did any other manufacturers decline to participate in the Audioholics shootout, and were they also publicly disparaged (albeit with a thin veil) in an editorial?

You could be right, 2x6, or it could be that Axiom has a genuine issue about the methodology of the shootout.

And, Tom, well-said as usual.

I want to be clear about something, since I know that Audioholics users are monitoring content here.

I think there are four separate issues here.

1. Axiom refused to participate in the shootout. Noted. In the context of what you know about Axiom, about Audioholics, about the hobby and about hobbyists, feel free to draw your own conclusions. No problem there.

2. Axiom pulled advertising from Audioholics. This is their prerogative based on their relationship and their perceived value.

3. Audioholics is having a subwoofer shootout which they purport to have objectivity, rigorous testing and quantifiable results.

4. Gene DellaSala CHOSE TO COMBINE all of these factors into one editorial. He is the one who implied a correlation between these things.

I mourn the death of Journalism. There is a reason why Editors don't sell advertising and Advertising Reps don't write editorials.

I might give Phil's argument a bit more credence, but Axiom has bent over backwards to make the EP800 users (at the very least) whole.

Well said Tom, very well thought out with some excellent common sense points. This will be my last word on this, however, the more I ponder this I also think there is an irony here in that, within the last two or three years Gene has made FOUR trips to Axiom's manufacturing facility in Dwight so he has seen exactly how the R&D is carried out within the company and obviously also became very familiar with the design philosophy behind the testing and eventual product introduction. He probably has never visited most speaker companies facilities even once let alone four times.

One would would have thought, given the more than casual knowledge about Axiom and its operations, he would have had some sort of discussion with Ian about this and what they planned on doing with this sub "shoot-out" and the parameters so it would be fair and agreeable to all, yet we now have a sarcastic article and a complete severing of what was a pretty long term close relationship.

Very strange, obviously something additional happened here which we will probably never learn about.

Look friends, I don't know Gene and I don't know Ian. I enjoy Axiom speakers. Personally, I've stayed away from their subs.

Nevertheless, the facts seem to suggest that Axiom retaliated against Audioholics' efforts to include Axiom in a shootout. Perhaps Audioholics made the announcement that they would include Axiom subs in their shoot out before Axiom had agreed, or after Axiom changed its mind.

It is clear ... Axiom pulled its sub out of the comparison, and pulled its advertising. You can connect the dots as you will. For me, I don't think it reflects well on Axiom or on the EP subs.

As to whether KC gives "credence"

x's2....

That's one of my favorite books.

I have no comments regarding the remainder of this drama. YAWN...

Does this mean that Gene won't be making his visit to Dwight next spring?

Okay, I've quickly gone over this and what jumps out at me is that instead of simply declining to participate(as several other manufacturers did)Axiom apparently made some type of specific objection on technological grounds. If this wasn't well-founded, it made Axiom vulnerable to being the clearly identifiable target of the editorial which otherwise might have been characterized as whining over the loss of an advertiser. The ground plane subwoofer measurement technique, correctly implemented, is to my knowledge widely recognized as being very close in accuracy to results measured in free space. The cited article in Audioholics about three years ago by Sanfilipo demonstrates this, and other material in the literature which I've studied, including papers in my AES Journal, is to a similar effect.

Thanks for clarifying things about the ground-plane measurement John. I was to busy and not energetic enough to look it up.

My sentiments exactly.

I thought that Axiom initially was a participant and then did an about face when the testing criteria was going to expose some weaknesses in a $2300 sub?

On you perceived value point AH isn't the first to analyze and discuss Axiom subs. Ilkka at HTS did two rounds of testing on the EP600 years ago and it wasn't flattering to something that cost North of $1600. Did Axiom have a spat with HTS and Ilkka or did they release revision?

Jinjunku has a hate on.

kind of an impossible senario...

review sites, with one noticable expection, have to rely on the advertising income of the folks they critique.

I'm, sorry, but I don't like what appears to be a retaliatory response from axiom. If you didn't like the testing method, bow out - but why take your toys and go home entirely?

If it wasn't for audioholics - I would have never even have heard of axiom, or obviously have a whole bunch of your stuff.

You guys have one side of the story. That's all. You don't know what really happened, I don't know what really happened, and frankly, it should have stayed between Axiom and Audioholics.

You must be one of the regulars at Club Polk.

What do you want me to make of a company pulling it's flagship product from a multi-product comparison and then even pull advertising?

AH isn't the bad guy here, neither was Ilkaa, neither was HomeTheaterShack. Some here are acting like AH is the bad actor here in their desire to test and compare. Really?

As mentioned it should have stayed between Axiom and AH. I don't see the hundreds of other subwoofer co's that 'could' have sent their products to this comparison getting slagged in public by AH moderators(with the exception of MikeC). There's obviously a disagreement here between the two operations which will benefit neither....should have been resolved between THEM, not through public forums.

I would have to disagree. Manufacturers were all beneficiaries of the testing methodology before signing on. I believe as a courtesy they were given the results of their sub before publication so they could comment or make suggestions. Not ask for their product back or threaten to get attorneys involved.

There is a piece of critical information that shouldn't be overlooked: If a manufacturer doesn't have faith in their product, why should I?

You're making assumptions.

What would you like me to make of it? Cookies?

I only have a few pieces of information to work with here:

1. All manufacturers knew the testing methodology going in
2. Manufacturers would be given a pre-publication report on their sub
3. Some manufacturers after the fact pulled their product and in one case pulled all adverts, and another threatened legal action
4. There are still a list of very notable names that didn't take this approach.

Based on that what conclusion should a person come to?

Axiom never submitted a sub. They declined after being informed of the testing methodology.

It is also an assumption that advertising was pulled as a direct reaction to this test. The two may be completely unrelated.

Ok, it was sounding like they did indeed submit a sub and then backed out...

Izzy, you don't know what happened.

I don't know what happened, either.

Point is, NONE of us knows what happened. And really, it's none of our business.

What I'm taking from all of this is that Gene posted about something that should have been private, and people like you show up, having never been here before, to tell us how Axiom is bad.

To me, that spells troll and that means I won't be feeding you.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=743229&postcount=94

On the contrary AH get lots of publicity out of something like this, I imagine their hit count goes up substantially when these sorts of dust ups happen on their site.

I do quite enjoy their reviews since they are one of the few sites who do measurements I just wish they would keep matters private unless “the other guy” throws the first stone publicly. It would make them look more professional.

Thx.

Unfortunately, this is common and a societal ill. People may not agree with the choices made by either party, but these choices don't affect me/us directly, they only affect the parties at hand.

Think for a second - are we really getting anywhere suggesting or saying this or that happened, or he/she's more or solely at fault?

This is like a f'in "reality" show for christ sake. People should mind their own business IMO.

Hit the nail on the head with that one Cam.

just wondering how do we know Audioholics is referring to Axiom in that article. I didn't see their name mentioned at all but they do talk about Earthquake trying to sue them for publishing a review. I assume Axiom isn't the only brand testing subs on a pole in free space and Audioholics has many advertisers.

I know Audiohilics lead to Axiom and I don't stand alone in saying that. All those reviews, endorsements and accolades are what lead me to buy Axiom speakers. Now all of a sudden they have cold feet when it comes to submitting a product? Hey....I don't think Axiom problem per se is with Gene, but rather the reviewer I believe, let's just say its a feeling I get having read that email. Yeah...sure I followed this forum and I decided to become a member when I bought my Q's and I'm not trying to stir the pot or cuase crap. I'd like to comtinue to post here and at audioholics, I use no alias only my name.

Best regards, Bill...

I think it's a Cams fault, damn commie .

I haven't read all of this post but I did read the one on Audioholics. I heard of Axiom by Audioholic and I don't think Gene has ever bashed Axiom but has only said good things about them. If Axiom doesn't want to be apart of a shootout then so be it, there is some good subs in there and I can't wait to read about it.

I also discovered Axiom thru Audioholic.

Axiom is the only one with a tower AFIK. Again we assumed they are talking about Axiom due to this point. Maybe we are wrong and Axiom isn't the only one with a tower, so those comments are not directed at Axiom.

I find it hard to believe that article was about Axiom.

Just look at their coverage on Audioholics:

EP 500 Review:
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/axiom-ep500

Epic 80-60 Review:
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/floorstanding/axiom-audio-epic-80-600

I bought this system b/c of this review!

It puzzles me that Axiom would think their sub wouldn't get a fair review from them.

I also did an internet search and couldn't find a single EP800 review with quantifiable measurements. All of the reviews I read so far have been powder puff at best. What is the deal with that?

It's very plausible that manufacturers either don't want to make the investment in a 90+ft tower or are unable to because of their location which requires no outside noise, wind ect. Obviously the companies that are located in any urbanized area would have to do their testing elsewhere. Maybe this is why they came up with other testing procedures....a 90ft cubed anechoic chambre could get a little expensive.

I presonally don't care too much what any of the subs sound like from a 90 foot tower!

It's for testing purposes. Do you sit in an anechoic chambre when you listen to your speakers?

*gets out of anechoic chamber*

What was that, Adrian?

Lol!


:::cough, cough...:::

errr, whatcha been smoki' in there Sean?

Um, pancakes?

I love pancakes.

Rick and I were in the anechoic chamber listening to Pink Floyd.

And eating pancakes.

That was you? I couldn't tell with all that smoke

Good thing we didn't put a smoke alarm in the anechoic chamber.

Nice derail

Here's my biggest beef prior to the pancakes part:

Method vs. "Methodology"
http://www.answers.com/topic/methodology

Methodology can properly refer to the theoretical analysis of the methods appropriate to a field of study or to the body of methods and principles particular to a branch of knowledge (i.e. methodology is the study of methods). In this sense, one may speak of objections to the methodology of a geographic survey (that is, objections dealing with the appropriateness of the methods used) or of the methodology of modern cognitive psychology (that is, the principles and practices that underlie research in the field).
In recent years, however, methodology has been increasingly used as a pretentious substitute for method in scientific and technical contexts, as in The oil company has not yet decided on a methodology for restoring the beaches. People may have taken to this practice by influence of the adjective methodological to mean "pertaining to methods." Methodological may have acquired this meaning because people had already been using the more ordinary adjective methodical to mean "orderly, systematic." But the misuse of methodology obscures an important conceptual distinction between the tools of scientific investigation (properly methods) and the principles that determine how such tools are deployed and interpreted.

I approve of your methodology for correcting this oversight.

:runs away snickering:

I saw Gene’s comments about the ground plane versus 90 foot pole also. I was not going to comment on it but I really do believe that peoples’ questions here on our forum deserve a proper response. I was very disheartened to see this article from Gene but it does reinforce to me that we did make the right decision in distancing ourselves from Audioholics.

I did supply Gene with two reasons why we did not want to participate in the Audioholics sub-woofer shootout. In that e-mail I specifically said that ground plane measurements would not be a reason for us to decline participation; and were in fact a very acceptable measurement method for us. To quote directly from the e-mail I sent to Gene: “For clarity I also believe a ground plane is the best alternative to a true 4 pi environment. It is why it was selected by the CEA as the most reasonable compromise to 4pi. We were on the board at CEA that developed this subwoofer measuring standard and one of the goals in the development of the standard was to make reasonable compromises to accommodate manufactures that did not have a full compliment of proper test gear. The equipment and methods being used for the testing is in fact the least of our concerns and would not constitute a show stopper for our participation.”

The two main reasons were something I felt Gene would rather be kept private and their omission from his recent article seems to support that.

There is also of course the possibility that another manufacturer with a 90 foot measurement tower who pulled out of advertising on Audioholics in September was being referred to here. I will continue to hope that this is the case.

Ian, thanks for clarifying the point relative to the ground plane measurements. As my previous reply indicated, I was disappointed that, from Gene's discussion, Axiom had apparently taken a technically dubious position. Your comment here shows that this wasn't in fact the situation and now my disappointment is entirely with Gene in writing what was at best an ambiguous comment on the point.

Thanks for chiming in on this, Ian. While there seems to be much more under the surface of this story, it's no one's business other than those directly involved (which does not include 99% of the people on any of the forums). I've just received my EP600 today and will (hopefully) enjoy it no matter what anyone on any forum has to say - it arrived as I started an 19 shift at work... literally and metaphorically the longest workday of my life. Those showing loyalty (blind or otherwise) do so for a reason. Those who joined in the nay-saying, well... that's another story. People are too easily swayed and that can be very damaging. Apparently, so can Purolator (but that's that's yet another story and my battle - my wife called to tell me that she could touch the speaker without taking what's left of the box off of it). Happy surfing all and watch out for those trolls!

Thanks, Chess, for making me aware of the usage of "method" vs. "methodology." I'm not being sarcastic.

Charles, I used "technique" rather than either of them, thank God.

Ian - It's been quite some time since I posted here. After reading your copy/paste of what you ACTUALLY SAID to the folks at Audioholics, I was shocked.

The case was made quite clearly that you refused to participate in a GP test over a 4 pi test.

It's pretty clear that you did NOT say this. Once again, you are shown to be one of the white hats in this industry/hobby.

The irony of all this: The best place to do an ultimate subwoofer shootout would be using your test gear, including the 90 foot crane.

Your clarification of this issue is not only appreciated, it is needed.

Thanks for the clarification Ian.

Thank you, Ian.

I'd also like to thank Chess, Craig, JohnK, Jason, CV, Mark, members of the academy, my family...

Nice one Tom!

Thanks Ian for the response and further clarification. With all this, unfortunately, for a few, the assumption is automatically made that because a company refuses to take part in such a process, the results could make the product look inferior to others.

Obviously, nothing could be further from the truth, otherwise Axiom wouldn't be celebrating their 30th anniversary this year.

That was some funny shit.

So you noticed the quote in their about methodology of psychology?
That wasn't just coincidence you know.

You do make me giggle Tom, like a schoolgirl!!

Maybe i should have asked to be put up on that 90' pole during the tour to see what my free to air sound measurements would be...

Dude, weren't you high enough?

Seems like Gene has proof (post #361)that contradicts Ian's response but decided not to post it to instigate flame wars between the two sites.

IMHO it would make a lot more sense for both parties to resolve their differences away from public forums. They both seem to have a long history of comradeship which is senselessly being thrown away.

I re-iterate, I would have never discovered Axiom speakers had it not been for all the positive Audioholics coverage. I love my Axiom system so in a sense I am equally fond of both organizations.

I hope they can continue working together.. I'd love to read about new Axiom products via reviews on the Audioholics website. Peace!

It looks to me like Audioholics has taken alot of "creative license" with this ground plane vs. 4pi issue. I've had the privilege of testing several subwoofers at Axioms facility over the years. Both groundplane and 4pi testing were used, the 90 foot pole only on clear windless days. Both methods are fine and Ian has said that consistently many times. Groundplane is by far the more practical method and a standard. However it is a proxy for the more technically precise 4pi measurement. I highly doubt Axiom would have said anything much different. Which again makes me wonder where Audioholics is coming from.

This latest imbroglio in addition to the slanted comparison between the M60 and EMP E55Ti has me convinced that the people who run Audioholics need a primer in how to deal with their conflicts of interest. Audioholics needs to seriously rethink how they manage their business relationships in light of their zeal to expand and market new products.

Well said!

I think it's sad that all this had to come out, but I've liked reading it. It's almost like a daytime soap that I've never watched. I would like to read reviews that was to the point to many times I've went into stores after reading a review that was outstanding. To walk away thinking WTF how much did the reviewer get paid to say that. The reads of the Bigwires or who ever that person is better the energy is way more fun than the daytime soap. To all have a good day I can't wait to read the review on the subs.

you might want to read Gene's rebuttal to your post at their thread. Post #373.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=766448#post766448

Honestly I can't help to read this stuff. I feel like a boy crazed school girl getting the latest gossip on who's hot..... but, I think it would be better for both parties to shut down these threads before things get so bad that the damage is irreversible.

Axiom never shuts down threads. It's not how these forums work.

I just still don't think DellaSala "gets it".

He chose to go public with all this - "My editorial was needed to be written for my own sanity" - and continues to speak out.

My point - and I think John's, too - is not the substance of the disagreement between Axiom and AH about testing methods and methodology, but about DellaSala's decision to editorialize about their relationship. He claims to want reconciliation, while at the same time publicly calling out Alan over technical disagreements. To me, his behaviour has not been politically astute, and it certainly does not enhance his integrity or trustworthiness. If I were a manufacturer or potential site advertiser, this episode would be a very meaningful case study about how DellaSala handles relationships.

It seems such a trivial dispute for two company owners to take this to the forums. Though again its also noteworthy that Mr DeSalla didn't mention Axiom by name in his article. It seems forum members automatically assumed it was about Axiom and that put Axiom on the defense which is now spiraling out of control. I suspect the majority of AH readers would never realized those comments were directed at Axiom. Very few % of readers actively participate on forums and most of website traffic is generated from search engines, thus casual, perhaps one-time readers.

It's clear to me that Mr DeSalla is no PR or marketing guy. Perhaps his business sense isn't as astute as it should be. He reminds me of a typical engineer that has to prove a point regardless of the consequences.

Personally, I find it a breach of trust when someone starts publicizing emails or personal messages online. I don't know anything about AH, Gene, or the people or persons involved with the testing procedure of thess subs, but if there was a question about how Paul(?) was interpreting or testing them then maybe that could have been addressed by Gene. It just seems there's a lttle fuel quietly added to each "reconcillatory" post.

I'd still like to see Axiom subs in this testing. Even if it's not done scientifically. I bet it would do Axiom more good than harm.

Yeah, I would like to see more reviews of Axiom products, even if it's not in a shootout format. Reviews of new products seem to trail by a long time, and then it's only at one or two places.

I'd personally like to see at least one review of the EP800 that has 3rd party measurements. This product has been out for nearly a year now and the only reviews out are fluff reviews with no measurements or design critiques. Consider anytime a new SVS sub comes out, you can find tons of 3rd party measurements of their products all over the web, including pro-reviews. Come on Axiom get a REAL review of the EP800 so we can all drool over the measurements hoping one day to own one...or two

It would be nice after all the dust has settled regarding all the contorversy to have a GTG for some of us average folk. Hey...I'd be willing to pack my sub and haul around the GTA to see how it would compare in relative terms to other subs for curiosity sake

<deleted>

That was one of my first thoughts as well.

That said email or personel message wasn't privite in nature because it was cc to other people AFAIK. I received a copy of it about 6 weeks ago and it basically stated what Gene made public the other day because people started to jumping to conclusions! I'll make this my last post here until everything blows over but some of you have made it difficult to follow this forum based on what I've read.

seems to me the trust was broken by Axiom by publicly stating misfacts about how Audioholics tests products. A simple "we don't feel its in our best interest to participate in shootouts" would have likely averted this entire situation.

Mistakes were obviously made by both parties. I just hope both can heal in time as I'd love to read more Axiom reviews on the Audioholics website.

Ken why did you delete your post . . . ?

I bet it was just a bluff so it looked like it was a deep and incendiary comment! he he he

It was an apropos comment, methinks.

Yeah, giving the last posts by a couple of newbies, I'm going to re-instate it:

Way to stir the pot, JBall and Billy P.

Hello, I am a new Axiom Audio customer expecting the arrival of two M80s, two QS8s, a VP180, and an EP500 on Thursday of this week. While I am eager to hear how it all sounds, I admit the subject of the Audioholics subwoofer shootout is causing me a degree of buyers remorse already.

Whatever the truth may be, from my vantage point as a new/prospective customer, Axiom, by their unwillingness to participate in the subwoofer shootout, is saying to me: "We are aftraid of the competition; we believe our subwoofer can't stand up to the other manufacturers' products." Whether that's right or not, it is how it appears to me. So, my yet-to-be-delivered EP500 is already stained in my mind as a possibly inferior product.

The real bummer in all this, as others have noted, I (Axiom customer) would have never heard of Axiom Audio, nor would have ever ordered from Axiom if it weren't for all the incredible rave reviews that Audioholics have give Axiom products over the years.

When I, a mere consumer/non-audio expert start googling up speaker reviews, I am always led to the Audioholics site, and their reviews subsequently led me to Axiom Audio. But, it now appears that Axiom isn't happy with that arrangement by pulling advertisements from the site. I think that is sad. It certainly gives me pause for thought even before I pull those new speakers out of their boxes. I'm hoping they'll be awesome, but the Audioholics thing has served to diminish my expectations. Please be clear that I am not writing to complain, just to expressing the impact that the subwoofer shootout controversy is having on me; a new customer.

[edit]Any statements you'd like to make regarding how great the M80s, VP180, QS8s, and especially the EP500 speakers are by way of encouragement regarding my substantial purchase decision, I would be quite appreciative![/edit]

David

I've had the EP350 for several months and am pleased with it. The EP500 has the same size box, but with a bigger amplifier. I'm anticipating that your concerns will melt away after you are setup and have everything adjusted for your room, and listening preferences.

darbo, I have the same setup you do minus the VP180, which wasn't out when I got my VP150 about 4 years ago. Axiom speakers are indeed the real deal. They will faithfully reproduce whatever you throw at them, so feed them well.

The EP500 rocks my small-to-middle sized HT (~1700 cubic feet). I can only turn it up about 20 or 30 % of max power before it feels like I'm riding in somebody's thumping low rider.

Relax and enjoy.

Thanks! That's the stuff I'm fishing for. BTW,I'm from Lee's Summit, MO, so we're practically neighbors.

I always put my subwoofers atop 90' poles. I just wait for the wind to die down. I wouldn't think of comparing subs using any other method, or methodology. I'm sure many of you feel the same way. I think it is a testimonial to Alan Lofft's reasonable approach to this dispute that he did not insist on the more challenging 180' pole test.

Watch out for subwoofers falling out of the sky. Believe me, they will leave a mark.

That's great. I don't know anyone else in my area with Axioms. Perhaps we could get together sometime. I am sending you a PM with contact information, if you'd like to e-mail or talk. Good luck with your system.

What did you say, Ken? I can't hear you over this stirring....!

Darbo, it's going to be awesome!

I don't know what happened between Axiom and Audioholics, but I know disagreements arise, and those don't need to be made public. And, if they are, we should all be able to avoid sounding like a bunch of small-town little old ladies in a knitting circle.

So then you listen to your speakers with your head flush to the ground?

EH!! whatcha say sonny?

David;

I enjoy my Axiom system very much but like I said for the last 3 posts, I am suspect as to why Axiom has not a single review with 3rd party measurements of their new EP800. I can't even find tests on other forums for this sub. The Axiom site shows you a measurement at 90dB. Big whoop. I wanna see what this sub does when it hits volume 11

I think you get influenced to easily! you got influenced by AH reviews to buy Axiom, you're getting buyer's remorse before even listening to your setup due to AH's comments and now you're looking to get positively influenced by Axiom owners.

Peace of advice: hookup your system, listen to it and whatever you're not completely happy with, return it.

If you want more reassurance, ask AH to do a center speaker shootout and enter the VP180 as a contestant

now you're just itching to open a pandoras box aren't ya?

Ears to the ground? that would be for ferrets and trackers. I use the 90' pole test. How about you?

Since you're new here, here's how to read your Private Mail.
You should have a flashing letter by "My Stuff" at the top of the Forum page. Click on that then click on Message.

Neither. Never built my own subwoofer although I'd like to.


There's some interesting info on Linkwitz Lab's website in reg's to subwoofer measuring. He basically states that in the absence of a very tall tower or anechoic chamber, the best option is a ground plane setup and the importance of setting such a method up properly and interpreting the data correctly. See writeup on it here.

Darbo, I too have the same setup (vp150 instead o 180). You will NOT be disappointed I assure you.

Thank you for your critique of me as a too-easily influenced vacillater and for your "peace" of advice. But, it puts me in a catch 22. On the one hand I'd love to take your advice and stop being too easily influenced, but if I do then my taking your advice will be more proof that I'm too easily influenced. Quite an impressive quandary you have me in.

Well played, sir, well played.

He'll fit in here just fine.

Darbo, welcome, and enjoy your Axioms.

Well played indeed. "Peace"

"You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that's clear
I will choose freewill"

I wouldn't touch this with thread a 90' pole.

If I had a 90' pole, I'd touch everything with it.

Isn't that just the problem with 90' poles ... where're you going to put it?

Somewhere up in Canada I suppose.

As Chevy Chase said in Christmas Vacation to his neighbor "bend over and I'll show you"

Now THAT'S funny.

Sorry, fellas, just not my style. Why don't the 2 of you gigglers just start without me?

Maybe you need a few drinks to get in the mood?

Hey!! you're already in charge of the med dep't.