After my badgering, harassing, haranguing and generally being a pest to them both, Alan and Amie have agreed to an Axiom Approved blind listening test. The players will be M80's, Rocket 850's and Paradigm Studio 60 or 100 V.3's ...
Alan has also offered to build a speaker switching box which will allow precise level matching for three pairs of speakers.
This will be a somewhat "open" event, hopefully with some owners of each company's products here for some serious blind listening.
Thanks to Alan and Amie, and Jack gets the nomination to post this on the AV123 site.
Once I get a pair of Paradigms secured, we will also start a thread on AVS ...
Whooooo!!!!!
They might just have to take that show on the road!
Seabear - This show IS on the road ... In Erie, Pennsylvania, to be exact. I am buying the M80's just for this test. (of course, having M80's will be pretty cool, too) ... and hopefully we will get a few audiophiles to attend. I am waiting to hear back from a couple of Paradigm dealers to make sure THEY can and will participate.
And ALL listening tests will be blind, with notes taken and preferences stated publicly BEFORE each person on the listening panel knows which speaker he/she was auditioning....
"And ALL listening tests will be blind, with notes taken and preferences stated publicly BEFORE each person on the listening panel knows which speaker he/she was auditioning.... "
Well, that certainly speaks of what all of the participants think about their products.
And How Brave they all are!
;-)
i dont think erie is that far away from me let me know when it is.
Snakeyes ... will do. Where do you live ?
Well, I'm VERY happy this has worked out. I'm surprised at the RS850s being included. I thought the original plan was for the RS1000s to be the entry from av123. However, in retrospect, since the 1000s (1ks) have a powered 8" woofer (NOT subwoofer), the 850s seem a more equitable choice.
I don't have any experience with the Paradigms, nor have I heard the M80s. But I'm very familiar with the M80s nearly identical sibling, the M60s, and with the 850s. I can attest to the excellence of both. And, from what I've heard about the Paradigms, I would not be surprised to find this whole thing will simply come down to personal preference, as ALL of the entrants are above average speakers.
I would like to emphasize, right at the beginning, that it is my fervent hope, and belief, that nobody should get bent out of shape over the results. If this is indeed, a blind listening test only, the conclusions reached can be no more, nor less, than "speaker A was preferred over speaker B and speaker C, by more in THIS GROUP of people, and in THIS particular room. Doesn't mean that YOU would agree, or that the results would be the same in YOUR room.
So it is my request that we all just relax and enjoy the fun.
Yeah, I'm with you. Hopefully personal biases won't result in some mudslinging. I'm always interested in reading about comparisons between speakers. It is easier to judge how a speaker sounds (and to learn how a speaker sounds) in direct comparison to another. Gives you a point of reference. I look forward to the results. Thanks, guys!
In reply to:
Jack gets the nomination to post this on the AV123 site.
I respectfully decline the nomination. I'm too verbose!
It is pretty hard for people to state preferences during a blind test then decide later there was something wrong with the test conditions ... When someone who claims a major superiority of "his speakers" refuses to participate in a blind test, it is a clear sign that person is afraid he might "lose" ...
In other words, He takes life TOO seriously...
OH ... and in regards to the 850's, I will either use my current RS-1K's with the woofers unplugged, or buy a pair of 850's ...
Craig - I just need the date. I'm not that far away and this would be great! Let me know.
Ray
I hope you will be able to obtain a pair of 850s, While the 1ks, with the 8" woofers unhooked, will sound similar to the 850s, you essentially would be testing a speaker which, unless you want to buy a pair of 1ks and unhook the woofers, nobody would be purchasing.
One more thing we all might keep in mind that Rocket and Paradigm proponents, in all probability, will be checking in here to read what YOU are saying about the whole thing. I know I'll be following the threads at av123 and AVS as well. It might behoove us to remember that, like it or not, we ARE representing Axiom. And rather than being the normal surly, snarling, bunch of savages that we are, maybe we could pretend, for a minute, that we are civilized and courteous.
Because of my circumstances (mumble, grumble
), I will be unable to attend. I sincerely wish I could. Maybe then I would finally know what my honest preferences are.
Jack .... In reality, A pair of 850's IS a pair of RS-1K's with the woofer section removed ... When you run a pair of RS-1K's, you plug the speaker wires directly into the "850" section, then run jumpers into the woofer amp. The "850" section is always run full range ... there is not even a crossover to the 8 inch woofer.
Ray, For sure, I Will let you know when the date is .. actually, it will be posted here.
Is the 8" woofer section completely physically isolated from the rest of the speaker? If not, then the internal volume of the 1ks, even with the woofers inactive, would be different from an 850s, wouldn't it? And, if that is the case, wouldn't a different internal volume mean a slightly different sound? I hope you understand that I'm asking here, not challenging. I do not know the answer to any of these questions.
Jack ... Yes, The 8 inch woofer is in a seperate, sealed compartment ... and the internal volume and porting area in the 1000's "850" section is the same as the 850's themselves ... I WILL, however, re-confirm all this with MLS ... and, as with all these tests, the owners of the companies are welcome to participate in the set up... even if just by phone.
Hey Craig im not as close as i first thought about 5-6hours not that that will stop me though. oh the answer to your question newburgh, ny.
Jake
Probably about 6 hours for me from the other end of the state.
this is all very interesting to say the least.. will be waiting for more details and results with great anticipation.
bigjohn
bigjohn - can you air mail a couple of gallons of your chili??
Is MLS going to supply the Alannis Morrisette disc as preferred demo-ing material again?
Any chances on getting a set of 703's in the mix? They are constantly compared to the M80's as well. I suspect that AV123 would also throw in some 750's, which would be pretty cool.
Edit: sorry, I only read the first page. I thought AV123 was supplying speakers, not using your own. - my bad...
Bigwill ... With over 200 songs having been used in the various tests, you STILL worry about Alannis Morrisette ?
For you, We will have a rousing round of Guy Lombardo ...
mdrew ... It COULD be interesting to get a pair of 750 Sigs here ... They are pretty close to the M-80's ... plus, with the listening test being blind, it will be fun having people differentiate between the "bright" M-80's, the "Laid back" 750's and the "sterile" Paradigms ... heh heh
As for B&W 703's ... Not a bad idea ... let me ponder it. And yes, I always buy the speakers being used ...
I seem to recall a fairly recent unscientific comparison between Axioms and Rockets in which each company chose the demo cd they would like to use. Axioms people chose a Mark Knopfler cd. Rocket man chose Alannis Morrisette (after hearing us discuss how bad that crap sounds on Axioms, no doubt).
Bigwill, As you know, I am not much for name calling when it comes to this stuff. THAT being said, any listening test which had each "side" bringing ONE disc for the test is not just unscientific, it is worthless.
We will allow a VERY wide range of music. We will have each speaker pair level matched. We will NOT let anyone SEE the speakers being played. And I don't give a rat's rear end WHO wins. You are invited, too ...
In reply to:
I don't give a rat's rear end WHO wins
i do!!!
but it wont change the fact that i am totally happy with my current system.
ray- dont know if i can do chili.. the dogs will sniff it out at the airport.
bigjohn
Big John ... The "rat's rear end" commment was meant to make you laugh. One of the reasons I always BUY the test samples ... it eleminates the "my speaker has to win" problem ... they are ALL my speakers.
Craig
Very Cool! I cant wait to hear the results.
To be honest with you I dont give a "Rats Rear" who wins either, and I'm not sure there will be an actual winner anyway.
Having heard almost all the speakers in your line-up, I believe they're ALL winners.
You must have one smokin' garage system.
And bathroom system, and kitchen system, and office system and..................
Actually ... By the time we get this put together, my Garage cigar/sports lounge should be complete ... and, for this comparo, as Jack will not (likely) be able to attend, I think he will be getting a serious amount of pictures e-mailed to him ...
We do have three main areas for home theater plus the new garage system going in ...
Yes! Pics! Pics! Pics! Pics! Pics! Pics! You just happen to have a VERY beautiful photographer. I hope she'll take pictures of herself, too.
In reply to:
To be honest with you I dont give a "Rats Rear" who wins either, and I'm not sure there will be an actual winner anyway.
Having heard almost all the speakers in your line-up, I believe they're ALL winners.
I agree with you Bray. I posted the following over at av123 when the issue of "winner" or "loser" came up.
I don't think the terms "winner" or "loser" can be applied properly to this particular comparison, for the simple reason that we are dealing with peoples "opinions" rather than hard fact. People will be expressing which speaker they "prefer," based solely on their own ears, and inclinations, not on measurements or any other quantitative and/or qualitative parameter.
What I will find interesting is who prefers what. It will be interesting to see if there is a consensus among the participants as to a preferred speaker. If one speaker gets the vast majority of the #1 selections, THAT will be interesting. But, it's also possible the #1 selections will be nearly evenly distributed.
If the majority of speaker A's owners prefer speaker B, THAT will be interesting.
Craig has implied that there will be some participants who don't own any of the brands. It will be interesting to see if there is a consensus of preference among them. And, should there be, it will be interesting to see if THAT preference differs from the consensus of preference (if any) of those who DO own one of the brands.
Regardless, since it only a listener's preference which is being measured, it seems to me the only conclusion which can reasonably be reached, is "that speaker is the 'winner' and the 'better' speaker FOR HIM/HER," and NOT "that is the 'winner' and 'best' speaker for everyone."
If the Toyota Camry is the best selling car in America, does that necessarily mean it is a better car than every model that sells fewer?
I posted the same message on AV123 as well.
Just some suggestions:
1. Ideally, you should use people who do not own either brand. Once they own, they will be able to recognize the sound and that will introduce a bias in their selection. This obviously makes the data less valid. We call this "selection bias" in medical studies. In other words, the sample of listeners should be "naive" to the subject speakers.
2. The person conducting the study (?you) should not know which speaker the person is listening to. This may introduce bias in your recording the opinion. This is called "double blinding" and should be easy to do. Once you have everything setup, you can ask your friend who does not know which speakers are what to play and record the results. You can analyze them. You could blind the person analyzing also (called triple blind), but the value is limited.
You are doing a fascinating thing. Let's do this as scientifically valid as medical research.
Hey...I don't own any brands that are involved!!
I can do the switching and/or listening!
In reply to:
The "rat's rear end" commment was meant to make you laugh
oh, it did.. i guess i agree more with what tom and bray are saying. i dont really know if there is any way to choose a definite "winner" or "loser", cause everyone prefers diferent sounds. but, i am interested in everyones overall impression.
but, as i had said, regardless of what the outcome may be, i have no plans or desires to change anything about my HT right now.. well, i would like a bigger sub!!
bigjohn
It will be REALLY interesting to get a bunch of guys who claim to hear these HUGE differences when they are looking right at the speakers in question to post thoughts when they DON'T know which speakers are on.
Blind tests, especially level matched ones, are REALLY humbling ...
Blind tests are great. I don’t know how many times I’ve participated in blind wine tasting and came home with a case of $6.00 a bottle wine because it bested the $30.00 and up per bottle stuff. But, I’ve also been to other tasting where I knew what I was drinking and I’d always go for the more expensive stuff.
This speaker test could be very similar to wine tastings. Just be specific with what folks should be rating when they are listening. Give them a few things that audiophiles consider “criteria” that high end speakers should have and score them accordingly to these criteria’s. Most folks know what their listening preferences are. Some folks crank the treble up and bass down, some are just the opposite. Knowing how a speaker scores in the bass, treble, mid range compared to other speakers is very helpful when buying a speaker without ever hearing it.
........mike
Mike ... For each litening test, there will be a "performance sheet" filled out ... With scores of 1 to 10 for each: Bass, Mids, Treble, Soundstage, Pace/Rythym, Overall tonal accuracy, and overall performance.... These scores will be for speaker "A" - "B" and "C" ...
When each session is done, the sheets will be turned into me. Before the test begins, I will have a log as to which speaker was "A", "B" and "C" each time...
By the time we are done ... we will have perhaps 12 sheets per person with scores on them ... THEN the tallying will be done ...
Most excellent!! I'm really looking forward to seeing the outcome. It's been a long time coming. I applaud your efforts.
Wow, this will be a great blind test and I look forard to hearing the results. I wish I could be there!
Hey ... Don't let a couple thousand miles stop ya ! Come on over !
Did you give a date for this yet? It is only a couple hundred miles for me.
Not yet ... This is shaping up to be pretty big ... coordinating everything will take some time ...
Craig
I was talking to my brother about your upcoming speaker comparison, and being an Audiologist (tests and treats peoples hearing) he thought it would be interesting to test all the participants hearing before the test to see how that coresponds to the end results.
According to him, if he were to test 100 random people, at least 90 of them would have some kind of hearing loss in the 1000-8000 khz range.
If you are interested (may be a bit much) he said he could probably find an audiologist in your area that would be interested in participating in your test.
We have a date - September 24th. The Energy Veritas 2.4i's and Paradigm Studio 100 V.3's have arrived. The Axioms should be ready soon ...
Bray, It is a nice thought, in fact, I had my hearing checked recently, and I am still ok out to 14,000 Hz, and drop pretty quickly above that.
But no hearing tests, subjecting people to a blind test is enough punishment ...
In reply to:
But no hearing tests, subjecting people to a blind test is enough punishment ...
But what if I find out that I'm Blind? And that I'm Deaf?
Why, that will only leave.....
On the other side of the coin, my pinball skills are
amazing.
This'll be fun. The Veritas are certainly one of my favorite sounding speakers. (well the 2.2 that is)
I have a wedding to attend that weekend, so I won't be making it. I'll be interested in hearing the outcome though.
After the M80ti's arrive, I will send Jack some pics ... and suck up to him so he will post them here ...
Well then, allow me to be the first to say that is a ridiculously attractive array of speakers. Are you sure there's room for the M80s?
I was think about this comparison a bit today. We know that Axiom uses a fair amount of blind testing (and a ton of blind-listening-derived research) to design, test, and validate their speakers. NRC research shows that the human ear favors a flat frequency response and people will choose flat over unflat with statistical significance.
Doesn't this give Axiom speakers an unfair advantage in a blind test?
(Actually, I know the Paradigms are pretty flat, but have no idea about the Onix or Energy speakers.)
Thanks, Jack ... And sure, I will be glad to terrify you in the Vette ...
I have already moved the speakers into seperate systems, so they can get more "play" for break in purposes.
As for Axioms having an advantage, let's just say Alan was PRETTY happy to have the M80ti's in with some $4000 speakers ...
oh, pardon me while i grab some towels to clean up the drool that is now dripping onto my keypad. beautiful display of speakers there.. not sure which are yours, or which are on loan, but i would try and keep them ALL!!!
very nice HT room also. i really like the big open face equip rack type system that you and tharkun both have. and i cant wait to get some results on the testing. as far as i am concerned, if the $1200 M80's, can compete with any $4000 pair of speakers, then i think you have a clear winner already!!
bigjohn
Vette? what year? I'm putting money down on an 06-Z06.
And how'd you get a set of Ref 3's?
Them's purty.
Placement question - I'd have thought that a more valid testing array would put the speakers in the same order L-R on BOTH sides rather than symmetrically. The current picture would indicate that all of the pairs have different spacing both between them and relative to the side walls. I'd think that either one of these factors could affect the outcome. If you took the example to the extreme, having one pair in the middle of the room 10' apart would give you different imaging than another pair that was 16' apart and next to the side walls, wouldn't it?
I have owned the Ref 3's for about 9 months now, and bought the rest of the speakers ... We have lots of rooms !
We are getting and '05 C-6 ... and are wavering between ordering a Z-06 or a 911 ...
Tom - That set up was just for pics. The speakers have been moved to separate rooms for break in. Our largest Theater room is 25x24 feet ... which will allow for
A....B.....C....D _______ A....B....C....D setting for the test.
Cool - thanks, Craig. I figured that was the case, but just wanted to see if there was something I was missing.
Suddenly I feel so low in my beat up 97 Altima
hey now.. i am driving my 1997 Chevrolet 1 Ton, 4 door, longbed with pride!!
sure they can go fast, but can they pull a 30ft travel trailer to Yosemite? can they take the boat out to the lake? can they haul a cord and a half of mesquite from the ranch in the bed? NOPE!!
all that, plus i gotta toolbox, a headache rack, bed rails, and a cattle guard.
but i cant go fast..
bigjohn
I'll see your 97 Altima, and raise you one 93 Camry.
(And it's the best car I've ever owned unless you want to count this)
And, to tell you the truth, though the MGB was certainly much more fun, the Camry is still the better car.
My wife's Excursion handles items 1 through 7 ...
The Vette handles Fast ...
Boy do I have fond memories of that MGB! Nice to see it again
Enjoy!
I thought I was just getting my upgraditis under control and then I see these pics. Like WOW!
Regarding cars, I'm just cheap. I can either buy something new and get P/O'ed about how it's depreciating faster than I'm paying for it, or as I've been doing recently - buying a well-maintained, low mileage (kilometreage?) older car that costs about the same as one paycheque - have it for 4-5 years and sell it for half what I paid when bigger things start going wrong.
The fact the average age of my neighbours is "dead" helps, too. Hmm... 91 Pontiac 6000 with 50,000 original kilometres, all service done at the dealership with a folder full of unnecessary repairs detailing that everything's been replaced except the seats? One owner - my grandfather, and since it's being passed through my dad to me, means I don't have to pay for a safety inspection... for $3500CDN? Lemme just check my wallet!
'Course, Lisa's sister refers to them as "Ol' Lady Cars"... but I've never had a car broken into yet!
Bren R.
BrenR ... The world needs used car buyers, too... and for humor, bragging about your car never being broken into os like say "I got me an UGLY girlfriend, noone EVER tries to hit on her. I got it MADE !" ...
So you're saying I should have been flattered when my (former) 1987 Honda Civic was broken into about 5 years ago?
YES ... NOW you are getting it....
I sure could have used that outlook when I discovered my rear seat sitting on the floor of my car.
At least they only broke the small pane of glass on the rear passenger door.
The trick is to make sure the car is TOTALLED ... This way the insurance company pays about 3 times its wholesale value...
I have an 03 Hemi Dodge to haul my toys around. Of cource it’s been “tweaked” a little to make that chore easier. In another life I built race engines. The new Z06 motor is what sold me on it. Hand assembled, dry sump, torque plate honed, zero deck, all aluminum 427 CID big block. I’ve just got to have it. And it’s still less than a viper, with a plusher interior. It’ll be a rocket. I just have to hear a V8. Imports may be fun, but they ain’t no muscle car. Not to mention the C6 will corner like a F16.
"but I've never had a car broken into yet!"
Geezzz, my old '80-something Dodge Aspen Wagon, with the entire exhaust sytem lying in the back, and the peeling fake wood on the side, got broken into twice in Queens and once in Manhattan. And I promise you it was as ugly and beat up as anything anyone wants to throw at it.
But then again, nobody ever stole it.
Shame.
Well, then YOU keep making insurance claims and dropping your pants and saying "oww... you sure there's not a sliver of glass right
here?"
Good water cooler icebreaker.
Bren R.
That hurt to even READ ...
That safety glass gets everywhere.
But nah, I'm pass the "cool ride" stage, and into the "I don't want to always worry about someone else messing with my stuff" stage.
Bren R.
Hmm.. seeing the Paradigm Studio 100 again makes me think: I'm expecting the Paradigms to have more quantity and extension in the bass - considering quantity of woofers, size of woofers, and the 2x price increase. If those 3 7" bass drivers are not able to beat up on the Axiom's 2 6.5" drivers, I'll be pretty surprised.
and disappointed in paradigm.
You shouldn't be disappointed. Keep in mind that this is all about SUBJECTIVE opinion. The panel will be rating the speakers in various categories, like soundstage, imaging, bass, midrange, and treble response, etc., and expressing their PREFERENCES in each category. The panel will not necessarily be EXPERTS (I certainly won't be). Some will be Paradigm owners, some Axiom and Rocket owners, and Craig's trying to get some who own none of the speakers being rated. So, there won't be a "winner" and "losers."
Let's say the majority prefer the Veritas 2.4s. All that means is that these people, in this room, liked that speaker better than the others. That, in no way means, that, had you been there, you would have felt the same, and in no way can be construed to mean it is the "BEST" speaker. Frankly, with different people, with different tastes, and different levels of experience, I'll be surprised if there is a clear cut consensus of preference. But I could be wrong.
Since the test will be blind, I'm very curious to see which speaker I prefer, and I don't give a rat's patootie which one it is. I hope I have an obvious preference. If I prefer one speaker's soundstage, and another's imaging, and a third's bass response (not that I have any ability to upgrade), I'll go bonkers trying to find a speaker that does it all.
That is why I avoid direct comparisons with what I have......if I like the other stuff better, and I cannot afford to upgrade(usually the case), then I will be unhappy with my stuff and unable to rectify the situation. I'd rather be blissfully ignorant!
is this comparison still on?
It's scheduled for November 19th. I'm sure Craig will be posting results when they are available.
November????
Well crap! I was thinking October. I'm waiting for this to be done, before I buy my new system........
Craig made the mistake of allowing his wife to do some "redecorating." Last I knew, "redecorating" had become "remodeling," and was taking a little longer than expected.
Of course, if I had a wife like the lovely Mrs. Chase, she could tear the whole damned place down and start from scratch, if she so desired.
In reply to:
before I buy my new system........
'New system'?? OK big guy, care to share with me what's on the horizon?
Yes Mike, really? What do you have in mind?
Well guys…….nothing really new planned, just the gear for my HT that I’m still screwing around with in the basement. The construction season is slowing down up here, so I’ve now got more time to actually take weekends off (well maybe next weekend). I haven’t done anything since April…..first the broke ankle and screwed up back, then my projects hit full swing. But now I’m back jogging and lifting weights again, my projects are rapping up, and I’m ready to finish the theater room.
So I’m weighing the decisions with the HT system. I know it’ll be Axiom, with the EP 600, but I’m deliberating over getting a set of RS 850’s for the stereo system and moving my M80’s to the HT room. Or, I’ll just keep the M80’s where they are and get some M60’s for the HT. I also want to go with same center speaker as the fronts, so I really need to figure out which ones I’m going with. I’m also getting four QS8’s for the surrounds. I’ve still got the HK 7200 to run the HT for the time being. I’ll go separates later. I’ve still got to buy a new DVD player, projector and build the screen, so the 7200 will have to do for now.
And now it’s my understanding the Axiom might be coming out with a new mac-daddy floor standing speaker. If that’s true, I want a set. But as closed lipped as Axiom is about their R&D and new products, I doubt I’ll ever know until the day they start selling it, which will probably be too late.
Oh, then there’s the color…….I like that glossy black and cherry.....but my M80's are Boston Cherry.....dammit!! All these choices!! UG!
The date is set for November 19th. We have the M-80's, Paradigms, and Energies here now. If I have ANY common sense, that is all there will be here for speakers.
In case noone noticed, that was a set up ... go for it ...
I'll bite.....704's. I think you really, realy NEED a set.
And don't forget the 850's.
mdrew, I am disappointed in you ... the set up was "If I had any common sense" ... you guys are slipping
Nobody likes a "gimme."
It was just too easy.
I have been hanging here long enough to know "gimmees" are not only appreciated, they are necessary ...
They're necessary ONLY if you're old and can't think anymore.
Hey, If you are going to abuse yourself, Jack, what am I gonna do around here ?
I was referring to YOU, not to me.
