Well let me first by saying that I still did not buy any axiom speakers yet, and I do stress yet.
Anyway before work today I went to our local audio store, krazy kileys, to look at the Klipsch Reference RF-83 system, and the Paradigm Monitor series system. When I spoke to the sales guy he was trying to get me to buy a Sony system (speakers and amp) for around $1,000 CAD. I was not even going to bother with what was so wrong with low-end sony stuff, then he said “Oh you want better” that’s when he took me to the Bose showroom……
Anyway after 30mins of all that sales garbage he finaly took me to the Paradigm show room, he did not have the Klipsch Reference speakers that I wanted but he did have the Paradigm Monitor series on hand and they did sound nice. So he told me for a 6.1 Paradigm Monitor system and a Denon 3808 it would be around $6,000 CAD. To me that was not bad for the price, that’s when I brought up Axiom to compare the price and all the other tech. stuff. That’s when the lies started, well more then before anyway. When I brought up Axiom he went off saying the M80 v2 where garbage compared to the Paradigm and the EP500/EP600 subs where not worth the wood they made out of.
Of course after reading up and talking to the nice people on the axiom forum this seems to be not true, so I asked the sales guy how did he know about axiom and how they sound, that’s when he told me, “About 10yrs ago I use to sell them at my store”.
That sounded kind of odd to me because I always thought that axiom was sold online only and not to dealers? Anyway I just wanted to tell my story of lies and sales people that wanted me to spend 2-3k on Bose crap.
Oh and I just wanted to know, is $6,000 for the Paradigm and denon 3808 a good deal, I think it is ok but I think I could take it lower.
Why do sales people lie and get you to buy crap, I did not talk about the monster cables they tryed to push with the package because eveyone knows about that. Anway the hunt goes on and in a few months I should have the money I need to get my system.
No, that is not a good deal. For Monitor 11s (2), CC390 (1), ADP 390 (2), and a DSP3200 came in at just under $3000.00 CN inc tax. There is NO way that 3808 is $3000.00 CN. I got this quote just before Christmas. Cheers, Adrian
Wow I did not kow they where that cheap, well cheap is not the right word, you know what I mean.
Anway at there show room the 3808 was at $1,800 CAD
Are you in Ontario, Rage?
No I live in Regina, Sask. very small city of about 200-250k people.
I'll pm you, the quote I got was from a chain of hifis across Canada.
Cool thanks Adrian, I will be back later to check (just at work right now, I love supervisoring I get to do nothing).
The 3808 generally sells for $1799, but most places will deal lower, my nephew and I picked one up for ~$1400 cdn, last year I bought one for $1287. The monitors (11) are a nice speaker but lack the detail and a little bit of the low end that the M80's have, FWIW, and they generally cost the same.
So far as the sales guy, the mark ups are usually higher on the hyped stuff so they make more money.
Sounds like the BB sales guy I spoke with several months ago whenever I wanted to take a first hand look at the Denon AVRs and thought BB carried them. I asked where the Dennon AVRs were located and he looked perplexed, "Denon?". Come to find out he had never heard of Denon and went on to tell me that Bose absolutely had the very best systems out and proceeded to try to persuade me to follow him in that direction.
There is no telling how many unsuspecting customers have been steered wrong by that clown's 'expertise'.
I don't know why people bash Bose so much, they make excellent bookends and somewhat stylish.
Jay, I think Paradigms, at least from what I've heard, are a bit cheaper in Ontario (more comptn? or because they're made here?). I think once Rage 'crunches the #'s' and reads the reviews, he'll likely come to the conclusion most of us did.
Just for the record, Axiom has not always been an Internet company. They started inthe early 80's, and well, there was no internet then. I think they still had a few retailers in the mid to late 90's, but not sure on actual dates.
Yep, there was a time where they did sell in some AV stores around Canada I believe...of course 10years ago the m80v2 was not even out, so this sales guy is full of it... Besides the Axioms are more in line with the Studio Paradigms, not the monitor series.
I think they still had a few retailers in the mid to late 90's, but not sure on actual dates.
I think it was quite a bit more recent than that, Worf, possibly even up to about '05. I remember coming across a few of their speakers on at least one Hifi site based out of T.O. I think the site was outdated and possibly that store no longer exists but it was still on the 'net. Maybe they were just selling off some few remaining stock, I don't know.
I'm not sure how long ago it was, but Axioms WERE sold retail in Canada for awhile... I believe they were even in Radio Shacks!
Of course, the point is moot because the dealer is assuming that the Axioms of many years ago are the same models sold today!
One of the dealers I went to (Monitor Audio retailer amongst others) said he used to sell Axioms "a while back".
I remember buying my first Axiom's in 1986 from a store called L&X Audio here in London Ontario. I was looking at a pair of Mission speakers (the ones with the tweeters on the bottom and the woofers on top). They sounded really nice, but the owner, told me about a new Canadian speaker that he liked even better. A week later I owned a pair of AX2's. And I still have them today (or at least my brother does, and he won't sell them back to me, don't think I haven't tried).
paul
Could be collectors items.
Well, maybe, someday. I was at my Dad's friends today, and he had a Akai reel to reel tape deck bought in 1968 for $650 (in today's money we figure that is over $3000). I mention to him that it should be in the Smithsonian, but by his look to me, I don't think he got the Joke.
I sold the AX2's to my brother in 1994 because they weren't sheilded. However with LCD and Plasma, that's not as big an issue to day as it was back then.
But he loves them so much, he won't sell them back to me, and I can't really blame him.
pn
When I brought up Axiom he went off saying the M80 v2 where garbage compared to the Paradigm and the EP500/EP600 subs where not worth the wood they made out of.
I've always found this type of salesmanship rather sad. Instead of inviting you to compare products (because they are confident in what they are selling) they try to instill fear into the customer by badmouthing the competition. I had dealers do this to me as well, when they asked me what other speakers I was considering. They would say something like, they look nice but...and then not really elaborate, or they would kind of make one of those faces like 'well, do you REALLY want to waste your money on those' just to get you off track. Dealers did this to me on different brands, including Axiom and Monitor Auds which are both known for excellent sound. Buying from an internet based company is becoming less of an issue, at least where co's like Axiom are concerned, and this probably makes some of the hifis concerned so they resort to such tactics.
To say the M80s are "garbage" proves this salesmans lack of integrity and/or ignorance of the profession he works in. Paradigms, are in fact, very good speakers...just not as good value compared to Axioms which by most accounts are in line with Paradigm Studio sound but at Paradigm Monitor pricing.
R96, clearly that salesman told you numerous lies, but as has been mentioned, Axiom did sell through some dealers until about five years ago, so that may not have been one of them. For example, Marc Hallam of the Audioshop in Ottawa was an Axiom dealer who was fairly active for a time here on the board, but hasn't been heard from in over five years. Some former dealers undoubtedly had remaining stock after that date.
In the past, having been in sales for many years, a good piece of advice I was always given was, no matter what, NEVER criticize the competition. If you ever walk in to an A/V store and the sales person is criticizing equipment they don't sell, you turn around and say "adios". I have had instances in the past where the person in the retail outlet was knocking equipment that he didn't know I owned, so in essence he was calling me an "idiot" for owning it.
Of course, they are going to promote the lines they carry, but the above advice is a good rule to go by to determine if the individual has any idea at all what they are talking about and be able to steer you in the right direction.
Excellent comments.
Well, he turned me into a newt.
And then he turned you back again?
Thanks for the input Casey, yes that is good advise. With very few exceptions I find most salesman are, I wouldn't even use the term biased, I would say they are looking for either their commission or the companies interests before the customers. I had one salesman who sold a few speaker brands including brand 'X'. Now brand X isn't all that established as a company and the salesman knew I was very unsure about buying that brand. He said he hadn't had any complaints about brand 'X' but suggested I stick with one of the established companies. A couple of the names he suggested, the store he worked in didn't even carry. I appreciated his recognition of these other companies and actually learned quite a bit about audio from him (my knowledge is very limited, I'll admit). Where some salesman would take advantage of the customers ltd knowledge, others would try to help you make an informed decision.
I was a audio salesman in the ancient past.
I gave honest assistance. I had great success.
I was fired...I just didn't fit in.
In this day of regular turnover in retail stores, your story is not surprising. I don't know what type of store you worked in whether it be "specialty" or the "Best Buy" type but one thing I do know that is if you work at Best Buy it is an unwritten rule that no matter how much product you sell you better sell a whole lot of extended warranties along with them or your history. I know this is even filtering down in to so-called "high-end" specialty stores and the extended warranties give them a good profit margin while because of the layers of distribution and intense competition, profit margins selling electronics has shrunk considerably. We should thank our lucky stars we have such great choices on the internet and no longer have to deal with all this retail nonsense. It is amazing though, how many people out there are not aware of these options.
All true casey. IMO, all the extra warranty really does is get the store to give you the proper service you deserve in the first place instead of a hassle or denial.
Yes ext. warr. is a racket to pad profit margins but I've seen it make a diffference too under certain circumstances.
Back in the early 80's when it started we would write CRESP (cust. refused ext. service policy) across every invoice in big letters to scare the buyer after wards. Then the stories of selling EW on power cords, blank tapes, etc. Funny but very poor biz practices back in the day as it is now too sometimes.
Unfortunately all companies are inclined to tell half truths or exaggerate the truth, and yes some even blatantly lie. We as consumers call it deceptive; were as companies call it good marketing. (i.e. Free Shipping) Hmm! Is it really free? Or (No PST in Canada), well actually the only customers that need pay PST are the customers in their local province.
Not really lies, but exaggerating the truth. That’s marketing!!
It always amazes me how the a lot (not some, a lot) of retail sales people haven't the appropriate knowledge to work with potential customers especially when they've got their hand in their wallets. The customer's best interest should always be paramount in this process. Some good advise I've read here is to never bash the competition, I agree. Trust me, you look foolish. Good companies/sales people will ask a series of open-ended questions at the start... i.e. "Are you looking at a HT setup?" "Stereo only?" "Combination"? "What is your budget?" "Room size?" "What are your long and short-term audio goals?" After these questions are answered (and recorded) then and only then should systems/speakers be presented to best match those responses. If anyone comes across and starts to "sell" you after coming thru the front door - walk away. Their profit is primary; not you.
R96, clearly that salesman told you numerous lies, but as has been mentioned, Axiom did sell through some dealers until about five years ago, so that may not have been one of them. For example, Marc Hallam of the Audioshop in Ottawa was an Axiom dealer who was fairly active for a time here on the board, but hasn't been heard from in over five years. Some former dealers undoubtedly had remaining stock after that date.
It seems that after Axiom went to an internet only based company many of the former retailers (and their potential customers) have generated similar stories, the Axiom bashing routine, including the aforementioned by JohnK.
I'm not sure why this attitude has come about but i have yet to hear an opposite opinion from a 'former' Axiom retailer, that Axioms are still a good speaker from when they last sold the brand.
In any event, if you are interested in hearing the Axioms, there are a few people around Regina which may be able to assist.
Regina, SK - M50s, VP150, VP100, QS8s, M22s, M3s (NeverHappy)
Regina, SK - Epic Grand Master (Lexxen)
See this link:
This link. Alternatively, though a farther drive, there are several of us in Winnipeg who would be open to having you audition the Axiom speakers, and even other brands depending on what is available (e.g. i have Angstrom, Tannoys and one other laying around as comparable quality).
Never underestimate the snobbery in audio.
Chess, how do your Angstrom and Tannoys compare to your Axioms?
Chess, how do your Angstrom and Tannoys compare to your Axioms?
Hmm,i would have to go digging for some of that info.
Let me see.
You could
take a look at this thread for a part of it. You can find some other snippets
here however, the Angstroms i own now are not the Modular series but the Legatos.
They are a slightly larger version of the Ponchettos.
I have not tried the small Angstrom vs my floorstanding M60s. It wouldn't be particularly fair esp. in the bass category. I suppose i could test by setting up the mains as small in the receiver, crossed at 80Hz, then unplug my subwoofer and compare the M60s and Angstroms from that point.
I too live in Regina and purchased my Axiom Epic80/500 system last January. While I didn't shop locally for speakers (because I was interested in a couple online brands) I did purchase a Denon 3808 from Krazy Kiley's last February. It cost me $1450 CDN including taxes in Feb 2008, and it was cheaper than ordering online.
At the time of the Denon purchase I'm pretty sure I mentioned that I had Axiom's. The Kiley's person I was dealing with didn't make any negative comments... probably because I already ordered the speakers and was so dead set on picking up a 3808 that he just wanted to complete the sale and earn some commission. I have heard--but forget where--that Krazy Kiley's used to sell Axioms many years ago.
However, in the past year I've been to a few other local Regina stores and the response I get from most sales associates is that Axioms are bad and why would I have them? Of course they've never actually listened to them. But also in the past year, of the 60 or so people that have listened to my setup 55+ of them really enjoy the Axioms paired with the Denon 3808.
I also own two DLP projectors and every time I go into a local store to look at TVs the sales associates tell me how bad projectors are, not knowing that I have them. For the ones I do tell they attempt to back pedal but just end up looking more foolish.
I purchased my 7.1 Axiom system in anticpation of blu-ray and 7.1 HD sound. Now after having a PS3 for 6 months and having watched many movies I'm very glad I made the purchase.
-N
Nekkr
Where have you been! Almost 1 year to the date. Happy Anniversary and looking forward to hearing all about you in-home Axiom experience (with pics!)
As I mentioned a little earlier when it comes to retailers, it can be a never ending battle to get useful, educated and accurate information. I remember a retailer I used to deal with(who has since disappeared)carried the Axiom line but like other outlets they carried other lines of products too. Therein lies the problem in that more often than not they are going to promote the products that would probably give them the best margins. I would assume after many years of fighting this, Axiom, once they had been well established, decided to go the internet-only route and avoid the hassle. I suppose that is why we have seen in recent years, more and more of the specialty electronics co's i.e. Emotiva, Outlaw, Oppo etc. etc. never even bothered going the retail route and went strictly to internet sales. Far superior product knowledge AND value, better service and warranties along with money-back guarantees negated any customer concerns about product purchase as opposed to going in to the potential horror of the retail environment.
The only time I enter a retail environment any more is after tons of product research (usually online). Then after deciding exactly what I want, I compare prices. And if I can't get it online for cheaper, only then will I enter the store. And it's usually walk in / walk out. I don't even notice the sales people,
PS; I never expected to buy new speakers without ever hearing them first or comparing. But after months of research, you guys forced me to make an exception! Boy am I ever glad I listened to you.
Even if your humour drives me crazy! OK . . . let me have it!
I have only met one salesperson that actually seemed to know what Axiom speakers were. Oddly enough, it was an 'assistant-manager' type at the local Best Buy-Magnolia store. While browsing AVR's, he asked what kind of speakers I had. When I answered, "Axiom", he actually sort of nodded and said that he had heard of those. "They're a Canadian direct-seller, right? I've heard they make good stuff," he said. He asked me a couple of questions about them and seemed to be genuinely interested in them. I was surprised.
But every other home audio salesperson I've ever met, from big-box stores to boutique high-end shops have either not known about Axiom or has been negative about them. To be fair, most have said they've never heard of Axiom. But several that claim to know what they are have made negative comments about them. "Oh, those are the speakers they sell out of a van, right?" "You don't want those, they're chinese-made garbage". "Those are crummy speakers and they know it, which is why they don't sell them in any stores." etc, etc.
For the ones that immediately talk of how bad they are, I chalk it up to plain old fear. Fear that the direct-to-customer model of Axiom will drive them out of a job. Fear that Axiom speakers really are as good as they are. After all, we're bypassing the middlemen by buying Axiom speakers.
Peter:
You are right on the money. In the case you describe and countless others, talking to people like this is an exercise in futility. Most of the customers of the big-box stores are NOT generally Axiom's customers anyway. As I mentioned before, it can be seen that more and more of the excellent online companies have chosen to go that way right from the outset to avoid being a slave to the retailers. Their reputations are built by word of mouth AND the online reviews from such places as "Audioholics", "Secrets of HTHF etc. etc. The day of the consumer electronics monthly magazine seems to be gradually disappearing anyway, so the online companies fit nicely in to that slot. In the near or distant future I cannot see myself making ANY purchase from a retailer other than a TV although, even now, I am starting to see sales of monitors as well as front projection units with online companies as well, so who knows?
As I mentioned before, it can be seen that more and more of the excellent online companies have chosen to go that way right from the outset to avoid being a slave to the retailers.
It would be nice to see more manufacturers sell direct, like automobiles, appliances, furniture(there's a few already), tool manufacturers ect. to name a handfull.
I often prefer to purchase from the manufacturer if possible. And if they don't have exorbitant shipping costs.
OK here's an extra