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#121848 - 12/26/05 07:12 PM Putting Architectural Series speakers IN the wall?
gbondioli Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 11/08/05
Posts: 35
Loc: Milwaukee, WI
Due to the dimensions of the wall where my PJ screen will go, I have two choices:
1. 110" Stewart screen with microperf, and place L/C/R speakers behind the screen.
2. 90" (or less) screen and use "regular" speakers.

The current front-runner is the Sonance Cinema Ultra II LCR, along with four Cinema Ultra II SUR's, for a 7.1 system. Retails for $6500, my price $3990. I like them especially because they have their own enclosure, eliminating one of the main "unknowns" with in-wall speakers: the enclosure.
I could get a 7.1 Axiom setup for much, much less. I'm especially interested in the QS8's. But if I can't flush-mount the W-Series speakers, then I obviously don't want to mix 'n match my surrounds (even if they are half the price of the Sonance Ultra's). It would not really matter if recessing them into the wall made them look ugly. The screen will hide them from the front, and behind the wall is just a utility room.
So, could the In-Wall/On-Wall Axiom speakers be flush-mounted? How? What might happen, sonically, if they were sunk 3.4" deeper than they were engineered to be?

One final question for now: Has anybody listened to the Sonance Cinema Ultra II's?

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#121849 - 12/26/05 10:17 PM Re: Putting Architectural Series speakers IN the w
Tharkun Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/05/05
Posts: 1039
Loc: Tracy, California
You could call Axiom and ask, but I'm sure they will not recommend installing the AS speakers as a flush mount type, this would defeat the design of them. Also the way the metal wall bracket is desigend, it wil not work for flush wall mounting, so the mounting of them could be a problem as well.
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#121850 - 12/26/05 10:49 PM Re: Putting Architectural Series speakers IN the w
gbondioli Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 11/08/05
Posts: 35
Loc: Milwaukee, WI
I just emailed Axiom. As for mounting being a "problem".... Almost everything else in this HT is a problem, too, so I almost expect it! Or, can stick with the Sonance for a couple thousand more and have a more "proper" installation. I'm sure I'll be happy with whatever I end up doing. But I am impressed with everything I read about Axiom. I'm 99% set on ordering and EP600 and EP500, and if I could get the other 7 speakers from Axiom, it would almost be like getting the EP600 for free!

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#121851 - 12/26/05 11:13 PM Re: Putting Architectural Series speakers IN the w
Tharkun Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/05/05
Posts: 1039
Loc: Tracy, California
Below is a picture of a W3 installed here, they do not protrude that far from the wall. For the cost of return shipping, you could try a pair and see how you like them. I tested the W3s here before installing them, the sound only improved once installed. So in my opinion you can get the feel for them without installing them, they will only sound better installed, not worse.
You can do a search as I have made several posts as to how I like the W3s, and there are some pics of the installation as well. Good luck on whatever you decide to do.

W3 installed
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#121852 - 12/26/05 11:48 PM Re: Putting Architectural Series speakers IN the w
gbondioli Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 11/08/05
Posts: 35
Loc: Milwaukee, WI
In my case, it is not about looks for the L/C/R speakers. THEY HAVE TO BE FLUSH-MOUNTED. I don't have room on the left & right outside the screen, nor do I have room below the screen for the center!!! That is, unless I shrink the screen, but I'm not willing to cut my image by 20% in order to fit speakers outside the screen frame.

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#121853 - 12/27/05 12:06 AM Re: Putting Architectural Series speakers IN the w
Tharkun Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/05/05
Posts: 1039
Loc: Tracy, California
Just attemping to give some info on the AS series, so do as you like, and good luck.
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#121854 - 12/27/05 12:10 AM Re: Putting Architectural Series speakers IN the w
danmagicman7 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/16/05
Posts: 1467
I don't see how flush mounting the speakers would do anything detrimental to the sound quality, especially because the Architectural series is designed to be on the wall. Having them flush mounted isn't going to do anything bad.

You could cut out pieces of drywall the size of the speakers, and make a neat little "indented" box for the speaker, then put it in there, having it completely flush with the existing wall.
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M22s|VP100|QS4s|HSU STF2

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#121855 - 12/27/05 12:17 AM Re: Putting Architectural Series speakers IN the w
dakkon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 1846
why could you not bring the screen out say 6" from the wall, make a "sub wall" for the screen? your already going to spend a decent amount of time and money.. doing somthing like what i said wouldnt cost "that" much money not just for the brackets and what not, and the 6" you would lose, would that throw off your projectors throw? is that another issue? dont know if this helps, but it is what i would do in an ideal world.

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#121856 - 12/27/05 01:25 AM Re: Putting Architectural Series speakers IN the w
BruceH Offline
devotee

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 353
Loc: Western Canada (just)
Without confirming with Ian, I would have to say that the W series are designed to be mounted on wall. I recommend not to attempt flush mounting them as you will increase the boundary effect and produce a hump in the lower frequncies, thus "colouring" the sound.

If you absolutely must have inwall, I would also suggest looking at Monitor Audio CP series. They (as doother flush mounted inwall speakers) have switches that allow you to customize the crossover settings to reduce the hump created by the boundary effect depending on the proximity to adjacent walls (or have no compensation).

As for surrounds, you CAN mix and match unless you have a desire for a matching set of speakers. Heck, I have a friend who would not buy a receiver unless it had blue LEDs.

If you are thinking of inwalls for surrounds I would not recommend it unless, again you have a desire of everything blending in with the walls. Companies like Triad build nice inwall dipole spakers but I think you lose some performace as they tend to become a little more directional (which is not really what you want in a surround effects speaker). However, I believe they do this primarily for aesthetic reasons and I am sure it does not "sound bad".

Perhaps you should look at mounting your acoustically transparent screen about five inches from the back wall (ceiling mounted?). That way you can mount the W series with no interference with the screen.

I sense that you are trying to achieve the best possible sound quality and have them "invisible". Unfortunately you can not really have both. Inwalls will never quite be as good as properly positioned floorstanders or bookshelves. The W series are IMO a step up from most inwalls due to their design inherantly reducing the boundary effect that colours the sound. There is only so much one can do to compensate for acoustics. That being said, you can still achieve a decent sound with inwalls.

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#121857 - 12/28/05 01:41 PM Re: Putting Architectural Series speakers IN the w
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3904
Loc: Up yonder
They are ported speakers, the ports on the bottom. Can’t flush mount them and expect them to sound right.

You could probably recess them into the screen wall if you built it out of 6” dimensional lumber, then “box” the speakers inside the 6” framing with 2X4’s. Just leave the stud space under the ports open to the bottom of the wall.

Clear as mud???

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#121858 - 12/28/05 05:54 PM Re: Putting Architectural Series speakers IN the w
gbondioli Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 11/08/05
Posts: 35
Loc: Milwaukee, WI
HERE IS THE ANSWER: Axiom rep also mentioned the ports, so flush-mounting is out. The only way to properly mount the AS series behind a fixed screen is to build a "sub-frame" or "box" to mount the screen about 4" out from the wall. Then the speakers can be mounted behind the perforated screen, with less than 1" gap from the speaker to the screen.
I think I'm going to try it. It will save me some major coin, and I'll get what will probably be superior surrounds in the QS8's (without cutting holes in the "visible" walls). Since I already planned on twin EP's, I will now have a complete Axiom system! I don't fully know why Axiom speakers are so attractive to me, as I have never even heard them in person... But I've read enough about Axiom from many people on different websites--filtered out the garbage--and come to the conclusion that I won't be disappointed with them.
So this is my new/current plan:
Center - W150
L/R - W22 X 2
Surround - QS8 X 2
Rear - QS8 X 2
Subs - EP600 + EP500 combo

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#121859 - 12/28/05 06:04 PM Re: Putting Architectural Series speakers IN the w
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6251
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
WOW! That should be a very nice system. It's almost a shame that the W22s and W150 won't be visible. Be sure to let us know how it all works out.
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"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#121860 - 12/28/05 06:05 PM Re: Putting Architectural Series speakers IN the w
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17782
Loc: NoVA
Excellent choice! Perhaps you'd like to purchase my extended warr---oh, wait, sorry, channeling used car salesman.

In all seriousness, it sounds like it should be a great setup. Let us know how it goes, and post pictures when you've got 'em!
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#121861 - 12/28/05 06:50 PM Re: Putting Architectural Series speakers IN the w
danmagicman7 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/16/05
Posts: 1467
How are you going to work a EP500/EP600 combo? Is the 600 horizontal?
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#121862 - 12/28/05 09:34 PM Re: Putting Architectural Series speakers IN the w
gbondioli Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 11/08/05
Posts: 35
Loc: Milwaukee, WI
Yes, the EP600 will be horizontal behind the 2nd row seating. The EP500 will go up front, beneath the screen.

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#121863 - 12/29/05 12:49 PM Re: Putting Architectural Series speakers IN the w
bridgman Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 5415
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
Building the screen out a few inches sounds like the right answer. That's going to be a REALLY nice system !!

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#121864 - 12/29/05 01:23 PM Re: Putting Architectural Series speakers IN the w
gbondioli Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 11/08/05
Posts: 35
Loc: Milwaukee, WI
Which brings me to the next question/problem: How exactly should I build that frame? And won't it look awkward? How can I make it look cool? Should I paint the 'box' black, or match it to my wall (beige)?
NOTE: I have no room for any sort of curtain to put around the screen. It will be right up to the ceiling (well, the left half will be), and I have about 5 inches on either side of the frame. There just happens to be an electrical outlet in the upper left corner of the wall. Perhaps I could put some sort of "rope light" around the left, bottom & right sided for ambient lighting... I'm not so sure I like that idea, though.
Any other thoughts?

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#121865 - 12/29/05 01:28 PM Re: Putting Architectural Series speakers IN the w
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16280
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
I don't have any specific recommendations about framing out the box itself, but in addition to mounting an acoustically transparent projection screen on the front, I'd cover the top, bottom, and sides of the box with some acoustically transparent fabric. That way the sound can travel more or less freely in all directions from within the box.
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#121866 - 12/29/05 05:47 PM Re: Putting Architectural Series speakers IN the w
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3904
Loc: Up yonder
I’m also building a screen to mount on the wall. I plan to rip some 2X4’s in half and screw them to the wall the size of my screen. Paint them all black, then rap the material over the 2X2’s. Trim the edges with some MDF and paint them to match. You could do the same, but just don’t rip the 2X4’s down. Space the studs so the speakers are in between them. You can build the frame and mount it with some angle brackets that you can find at any hardware store. Just mount them on the inside of the studs. Then trim it out.....
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#121867 - 12/30/05 03:32 PM Re: Putting Architectural Series speakers IN the w
WJJ Offline
regular

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 9
Loc: Louisiana
Is there a review/listening comparison of the M22 and the Architectural series W22 anywhere on this site? When you add the necessary stands to the cost of the M22's, the price is similar.

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#121868 - 12/30/05 03:38 PM Re: Putting Architectural Series speakers IN the w
bridgman Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 5415
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
The closest I have seen is Dennis (Tharkun)'s comments on a listening test he did between M2 and W2s up at Axiom. I think he ended up preferring the M2s but the difference was very small.

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#121869 - 12/30/05 04:25 PM Re: Putting Architectural Series speakers IN the w
Tharkun Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/05/05
Posts: 1039
Loc: Tracy, California
When the pair of W3s arrived, I took them over to Lees (koiman) house and compared them to his pair of M3. To me they were so close it was diffacult to tell the differance. Once I installed them in the wall, the base was even more defined.
The blind test up at Axiom was very close between the two speakers, to me, both are good choices. In my opinion if you limited floor space, try the AS series, I doubt you will not be happy with them.

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#121870 - 12/30/05 05:05 PM Re: Putting Architectural Series speakers IN the w
bridgman Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 5415
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
D'oh !!

I forgot you had W3s...

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#121871 - 12/30/05 05:11 PM Re: Putting Architectural Series speakers IN the w
Tharkun Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/05/05
Posts: 1039
Loc: Tracy, California
The W3s are great speakers, enough base that one can do without a sub. A pair would work great in the new bedroom John. (hint) (hint)
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#121872 - 12/30/05 05:50 PM Re: Putting Architectural Series speakers IN the w
bridgman Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 5415
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
Already thinking about it. The M40s may be sacrificed to displace a Bose system at the home of the nice folks who lent me the furniture you can see in the latest pics :

http://community.webshots.com/photo/489214861/530569819Lljsvf

Then again, if the M40s actually *fit* in the bedroom then we'll have to think about plan B. I really do like those M40s...


Edited by bridgman (12/30/05 05:51 PM)

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#121873 - 12/31/05 12:28 PM Re: Putting Architectural Series speakers IN the w
WJJ Offline
regular

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 9
Loc: Louisiana
Thanks guys for the info. I will soon be building out a small room for for music and home theater, and will be depending on this forum for a lot of info. As the room will be small, 13 X 15, 8' ceiling height, I have already decided on the M22 or W22 as the fronts, with the QS8's as surround, QS 4's appear to be adequate, but for a hundred more.... All will be powered by an HK 635.


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#121874 - 01/02/06 04:52 PM Re: Putting Architectural Series speakers IN the w
BruceH Offline
devotee

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 353
Loc: Western Canada (just)
In reply to:

HERE IS THE ANSWER: Axiom rep also mentioned the ports, so flush-mounting is out.




With a little ingenuinity, anything is possible.

While I would not recommend the following, here is how they could be flush mounted. This would require moderate to expert finishing skill to make it look good.
When building a wall, the area below the ports can also be recessed to allow the ports to breathe. This would result in what would appear as a pocket in the wall below each speaker. If not a fixed screen, then for visual presentation the speakers should not be recessed past the halfway point of the sides (quadrant of the semicircle). IF the screen is fixed, then the speakers could theoretically be fully recessed and the pocket made deeper. Care would have to be taken to seal the speaker to the wall to minimize or eliminate energy loss through the back of the wall.
It really complicates the installation but it could be done. Manufacturers of ported inwall speakers place the ports on the front of the cabinet but then again, these are not inwall speakers (just simply wall speakers). I still prefer the design of the Axiom AS W speakers as they are built to minimize sacrificing sound quality.

It is a shame that you have to install these behind a screen as they are quite attractive speakers. At least that is what my wife tells me. Apparently I have little sense of fashion and what "looks good".


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#121875 - 01/02/06 07:22 PM HT on hold until further notice...
gbondioli Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 11/08/05
Posts: 35
Loc: Milwaukee, WI
I'll tell you what "looks good," since I don't have any pics, yet: my new 7.1 surround system with 7" screen. Yeah, I said it. 7 inches. It is a major downgrade from the 110" Stewart Firehawk screen I was planning on. But this screen also includes a 2006 Matador Red Lexus GS430 and Mark Levinson 14 speaker surround sound system! It was the last day of 2005, and they gave me a great deal on a demo model with 5600 miles. Unfortunately, this blows my HT budget to pieces. I've really been working hard these past few months to finalize the plans for my movie room, and was planning to begin building this month. Perhaps I can still swing part of it, and build it over a longer timeframe... I haven't figured out exactly what this does to my overall budget, yet.
On a funny note, I spent much of yesterday playing with my new "toy." The first disc I put in was "Return of The King." I've got to say, that new ML sound system is GREAT with that movie. Listening to the radio, it sounded like a "normal" car stereo. But I've never heard a car with DTS EX before. Sweet! I had the car off most of the time, running all those electronic goodies off the battery. Well, at about midnight, I snuck out to the garage to play some more, and the stereo gave out. I tried to fire up the engine but the starter only "clicked." It turns out that this car requires 85% battery to start the engine. If it dips to 84%, it just will not start! So, with my wife asleep, I used her car to jump mine... Other than that, I'm loving my new HT... err, I mean, car.

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#121876 - 01/02/06 09:13 PM My Bad
gbondioli Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 11/08/05
Posts: 35
Loc: Milwaukee, WI
No such thing as DTS EX... It only has Dolby Digital 5.1 and DTS Digital 5.1 with a 7.1 speaker arrangement.
And sorry for derailing the topic at hand.

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