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#144029 - 07/24/06 09:50 PM Re: Yamaha RX-V2600-Denon 2807 [Re: osvijazz]
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4788
Loc: western canada
Quote:

I really liked the sense of space and clearness plus the upfront vocal presentation of the Yamaha and maybe someone else likes the more focused darker laid back sound of the Denon.



Where did that damn blindfold go?
Peter, Peter where the heck did Ken hide that hanky?!
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"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

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#144030 - 07/25/06 11:31 AM Re: Yamaha RX-V2600-Denon 2807 [Re: osvijazz]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16258
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
The differences you cite between the Denon and the Yamaha simply do not exist in the non-subtle way you describe. Much, if not all, of the perceived can be attributed to "sight bias" -- your eyes have more influence over your perception of sound than you may realize -- and even very slight differences in the loudness of each device at the time you compared them.

Time and time again, perceived differences collapse to statistical insignificance when the testing is done in a controlled environment that minimizes as many variables as possible.
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#144031 - 07/25/06 09:22 PM Re: Yamaha RX-V2600-Denon 2807 [Re: osvijazz]
Bilbo_Baggins Offline
veteran

Registered: 01/15/04
Posts: 195
Loc: Utah
I think a lot of the Denon, yamaha, HK discussion do come back to personal taste. I think as with a lot of technology that requires a learning curve to comfortably work all of the options, the discussions lead back to the old Genesis song, "I know what I like, I like what I know".



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#144032 - 07/25/06 09:59 PM Re: Yamaha RX-V2600-Denon 2807 [Re: Bilbo_Baggins]
littleb Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 08/03/03
Posts: 1235
Loc: Moorhead, Minnesota/US
He dig good.

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#144033 - 07/25/06 11:03 PM Re: Yamaha RX-V2600-Denon 2807 [Re: pmbuko]
osvijazz Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 20
Loc: Gurabo, Puerto Rico
Quote:

The differences you cite between the Denon and the Yamaha simply do not exist in the non-subtle way you describe. Much, if not all, of the perceived can be attributed to "sight bias" -- your eyes have more influence over your perception of sound than you may realize -- and even very slight differences in the loudness of each device at the time you compared them.

Time and time again, perceived differences collapse to statistical insignificance when the testing is done in a controlled environment that minimizes as many variables as possible.




Okay... I think I've have enough. I first asked what did you guys used to power your M60's so I could get a few recommendations. Then, after reading and reading some more I wanted to get the Denon 2807 for what I've already said in previous posts. So...You already know the story and I'm going to be as clear as possible. There was a difference whether you want to believe it or not. And I'll tell you more...there was much more difference between the to receivers in discussion than between my M60's and the Monitor Audio speakers they used there. I'm a professional musician, been playing for more than 25 years and I do know and understand sound. I can more than tell you about soundstage, I can tell you about how clearly the notes on a piano or a guitar can be heard...the actuall voicing on the chord being played. Obviously this may be done on any stereo but is WAY easier on some systems than others. Acoustic bass for example is very hard to define on poor sounding stereos, not so difficult on a pair of M60's with a good power amp-receiver. So please...if you don't have the knowledge or the ears don't assume that is impossible to hear a difference in amps...it's just plain ignorant...As far as "my eyes" being the one to blame let me tell you...how about no lights, dark room kind of listening. You see, my testing was done on a VERY controlled enviroment. Be my guest man, try it yourself and if you can't tell one amp from the other then you need a new pair of ears...if you do percieve a tonal difference then you may choose a favorite...it's that simple.

P.D. I'm really sorry I have to bring this attitude but this guy was just too much.
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osvi

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#144034 - 07/25/06 11:18 PM Re: Yamaha RX-V2600-Denon 2807 [Re: osvijazz]
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4788
Loc: western canada
Quote:

I'm a professional musician, been playing for more than 25 years and I do know and understand sound...



Now where have i heard this one before.
No, don't tell me, it will come to me.
Oh ya, from every person who has never done an honest blind test.
Now i remember.

Quote:

if you don't have the knowledge or the ears don't assume that is impossible to hear a difference in amps



There's no such thing as 'golden ears', sorry.
Another proven myth.

Quote:

You see, my testing was done on a VERY controlled enviroment.



By all means, lay out your experimental protocols for me. I would love to read about it. I have, oh, a little experience in this regard.

Have you tried doing some more up to date reading on psychoacoustic audio research? The stuff from 25 years ago is rather out of date. I suggest you start at the Harmon Kardon site, look for their white papers section.
Dr. Toole has published some very detailed stuff. I really don't know if he's a musician, but don't hold it against him eh.
_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

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#144035 - 07/26/06 12:16 AM Re: Yamaha RX-V2600-Denon 2807 [Re: chesseroo]
ElTorrente Offline
buff

Registered: 05/21/04
Posts: 54
I doubt differences in amplifiers are audible 99% of the time. I don't doubt that there ARE differences, and that in certain situations we could hear them, but for the most part you can rest assured that your particular amplifier is a good one. I would think that we could only notice when playing at high levels, where one amplifier is straining to keep up with the peaks, whereas a more powerful amp would handle it comfortably.

Denon, Yamaha, Outlaw, HK, Pioneer, Sony, etc.. they are all great quality products and you can't go wrong with any of them. Buy the one that fits the budget, and has the features, power, and looks that is desirable.

I read somewhere about doing blind audio tests in controlled environments and people couldn't tell the difference- at all. In fact, they were allowed to bring their own music so they were listening to their favorite reference material. All the responses garnered from the test(s) (I've heard of two of them like this) showed that noone could tell the difference. All amplifiers were setup perfectly with the same exact sound levels beforehand.

At any rate, all that matters is that you are happy with your purchase. I am VERY happy with my RX-V2400, and would recommend to anyone to buy a Yamaha, also. It has the features I want, looks cool, and sounds great.

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#144036 - 07/26/06 12:55 AM Re: Yamaha RX-V2600-Denon 2807 [Re: osvijazz]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10361
Osvaldo, as was said, you made an excellent choice in getting the 2600; that being said however, the differences you described simply couldn't exist if all the settings(particularly the precise volume level)were the same. Your sincerity isn't being questioned, so please don't be upset, but our ears can frequently fool us regardless of how experienced we are with sound and music. Only a carefully controlled blind listening test can adequately examine these questions. Dr. Toole has stated in an AES meeting where he discussed the essential requirement that listening be conducted blind that "If we can see what we're listening to, we can't hear it".

The classic example of a blind listening test demonstrating this is found in the Stereo Review test , in which among other results the $12,000 pair of tube amplifiers was indistinguishable from the $220 Pioneer receiver. Note especially the contrast between the open listening before the blind sessions, where the participants describe in somewhat flowery language the differences they're hearing, with the results failing to show such differences when the nameplates and pricetags were concealed.
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Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#144037 - 07/26/06 08:59 AM Re: Yamaha RX-V2600-Denon 2807 [Re: osvijazz]
littleb Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 08/03/03
Posts: 1235
Loc: Moorhead, Minnesota/US
Osvijazz,

I'm not a professional musician, but I do like listening to music. I've used 3 different receivers in the past couple years, and like you I preferred the Yamaha version over the other two. I will say that soundwise the Yamaha and the current HK sound similar. And like you, the Denon I had was my least favorite. Congratulations, I'm sure you have a great receiver to go with your new speaker system.

Note to the rest of the gang: Please let it go. The man likes his Yammie. We don't need another seemingly endless argument over whether or not amps sound different. We found a new friend. We don't have to chase him away over something so trivial.

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