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#147895 - 09/20/06 02:14 PM Re: M22 Question [Re: alan]
bridgman Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 5431
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
Interesting.

Alan, do you think the same results would be achieved by pushing the stands right back against the wall, or do you think being "mid-wall" on brackets also helped ?

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#147896 - 09/20/06 03:55 PM Re: M22 Question [Re: bridgman]
alan Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 3189
Loc: Toronto/New York/Dwight
John,

You'll certainly get some enhancement of bass output if you put the M22s up against the wall on the stands. As to how much, I'll check that with Ian. I'm curious myself about the mid-wall position of the M22s on brackets and whether greater bass reinforcement occurs because of the larger wall surface acting as boundary enhancement.

Keep in mind, too, that the bass reinforcement may not be entirely even over the lower octaves, but in my listening tests in the Axiom room, I did not hear uneven bass extension. That may vary, of course, depending on the listener position in the room and, I suspect, the total area of the surface behind the speaker that is bracket-mounted.
_________________________
Alan Lofft,
Axiom Resident Expert

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#147897 - 09/20/06 08:37 PM Re: M22 Question [Re: bridgman]
LHawes Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/09/06
Posts: 71
Quote:

Seriously, if you have a sub with the M22s stop worrying. When it's time to upgrade, get a better sub.

If you move to a much bigger room, think hard about bigger speakers. Enjoy !!




I've never heard contemplating upgrading audio equipment called worrying and of course the problem I have is not really a problem at all as you have pointed out.

The reason I am contemplating a change is because I don't have a receiver or preamp and am running BOTH my M22's and my sub from my 2 channel ATI Amp sourced via a SqueezeBox and would really rather not mess with a sub at all. One reason is the relative lack of crossover or any other kind of bass control with the setup I have.

No HT, No television, just 2 channel music. I may eventually pick up a pre amp for a little more control but will never use this system for anything other than music and again would just prefer a system without a sub.

In the meantime I WILL take your advice and enjoy the music with what I have - which is, as you know, a very small sacrifice.

Thanks

Larry

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#147898 - 09/20/06 08:44 PM Re: M22 Question [Re: alan]
LHawes Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/09/06
Posts: 71
Quote:

Hi LHawes,

Relative to JohnK's comments on the "bass-light" M22s, I just returned from doing a bunch of double-blind listening tests at Axiom. One of the comparisons (I didn't know what was behind the curtain), included a pair of M22s wall-mounted using Full Metal Brackets.

I couldn't believe the increase in bass output of the M22s bracket-mounted versus M22s on stands. Ian pointed out that he measured a 9-dB increase in the M22s bass output when you wall-mount them on brackets. So if you want more bass output from the M22s, and you aren't using a sub, put 'em on the wall on a pair of brackets.

At the time I was switching back and forth during the blind sessions, I was speculating that Ian had developed a "perfect" new speaker with all the virtues of the M22s plus really solid bass. And I knew one of the pairs I was auditioning was higher up so I figured it had to be something on a wall. When the curtain was drawn after the tests, I was flabbergasted.




Very interesting. I'll try your suggestion for grins but don't think it will change things in my room as it would mean hiding the M22's behind the sides of the large TV Amoir that house my audio stuff.

"I was speculating that Ian had developed a "perfect" new speaker with all the virtues of the M22s plus really solid bass." And of course this previous thought is what prompted my original post.

Thanks for the info

larry

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#147899 - 09/20/06 09:12 PM Re: M22 Question [Re: LHawes]
bridgman Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 5431
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
>>I've never heard contemplating upgrading audio equipment called worrying and of course the problem I have is not really a problem at all as you have pointed out.

That was my mistake. I was posting in a hurry and mixed up two threads. Ignore

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#147900 - 09/20/06 10:04 PM Re: M22 Question [Re: LHawes]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10403
Sure, Larry, experiment with positioning. My M22s aren't wall mounted on brackets, but they are very close to the wall, which serves to fortify the low bass without any bad effects in my experience. Having the mid-woofers very close to one wall(or the floor)is okay, but the three distances(wall, wall, floor)should be different from each other.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#147901 - 09/21/06 07:57 AM Re: M22 Question [Re: alan]
JasonEuc Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/29/06
Posts: 30
Loc: Pennsylvania, USA
Alan,

Could you elaborate a bit more on the 9dB increase by wall mounting? At what frequency does that occur, and does the overall extension change or only the relative levels at a specific frequency?

I'm just surprised at the 9dB number because that means the M22's are behaving 8X's as loud?

Here's my simple calcs:
3dB= 2X's as loud (2^1)
6dB= 4X's as loud (2^2)
9dB= 8X's as loud (2^3)

Or is my understanding just WAY off?
_________________________
- JasonEuc M50's, CC370, M3's, Rotel RSX-965, Integra DPC 7.5, Harmony 688

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#147902 - 09/21/06 12:29 PM Re: M22 Question [Re: JasonEuc]
Hutzal Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Hollywood. (Canadian @ <3)
Is it possible to bracket mount these M22s with drywall anchors? There are no studs next to where my front projector screen will go. Will 2 drywall anchors be able to support the weight of the bracket and the M22?

One more question, I will be using a 5'(width) x 20" (depth) x 20" (high) DIY "Flexy" audio video rack under the screen. If I wall mount my M22s beside the screen I will have to put the centre channel on top at the back of my rack that I made, thus it won't be at the front edge (which would produce the best sound). There will be no shelf on top of it though, It will open above the speaker.

Will it be sufficient with mabey a foot of MDF wood in front of the speaker? I am 99% it doesn't really make a huge difference, I am just checking, it may affect my decision to even make the AV rack.
_________________________
Producer | Composer
www.robbhutzal.com

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#147903 - 09/21/06 11:12 PM Re: M22 Question [Re: Hutzal]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10403
Robb, it's unclear why your center speaker would have to be recessed rather than being at the front edge of the rack. No, it wouldn't make a "huge" difference, but the diffraction should be avoided if at all possible. My suggestion would be to consider a third M22 positioned vertically under the screen as the center and to rearrange the rack to the extent necessary to provide the room.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#147904 - 09/22/06 12:53 AM Re: M22 Question [Re: JohnK]
Hutzal Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Hollywood. (Canadian @ <3)
Quote:

Robb, it's unclear why your center speaker would have to be recessed rather than being at the front edge of the rack. No, it wouldn't make a "huge" difference, but the diffraction should be avoided if at all possible. My suggestion would be to consider a third M22 positioned vertically under the screen as the center and to rearrange the rack to the extent necessary to provide the room.




Isn't it advisable to have the centre channel flush with the left and right mains? Would it matter much if the centre channel was a foot or so in front of the mains?

I could make the rack a little lower to the groud thus providing enough room for me to make a riser of some sort to stick the centre channel on to lift it off of the rack a couple inches, would this be sufficient?

Or should I try and stick a rack some place else? I was planning on putting the sub in the back right hand corner of the room with a bass trap on top of it (ala Ethan Winer). I guess I could stick that bass trap at the back of the room in the corner near the seating area. Technically it would provide the same amount of bass because it is omnidirectional? And then I could stick my rack in the corner leaving a whole front of space for the centre channel to be mounted on a stand or something.

EDIT: a vertical M22 would be good because I am only alotting 30" below the bottom of the screen in order to put the picture around 1/3 from the bottom at eye level. Hence not enough room.

-Hutz


Edited by Hutzal (09/22/06 12:57 AM)
_________________________
Producer | Composer
www.robbhutzal.com

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