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#149363 - 10/14/06 06:52 PM HD-DVD
HomeDad Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 3301
Loc: Central,California
I just ordered the HD-DVD add on for the XBOX 360 that should ship on 11/7 with the HD version of King Kong. Im looking forward to see how HD compares to regular DVD, and for 199.00 I don't think thats a bad way to start HD early.
Of course I'll be adding the PS3 with blu-ray, in another month, so I guess I'll be covered on both ends.
If anyone else is interested heres the link for the XBOX 360 HD EBGAMES
_________________________
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.

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#149364 - 10/15/06 11:00 AM Re: HD-DVD [Re: HomeDad]
VikingShips Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/14/06
Posts: 71
Loc: southern CA
Just checking out some HD vs BluRay sites on Google, and I came upon this ad for Toshiba units, the "entry level" unit going for $499. The top of the line unit will have 1080p capabilities. The entry level will also have HDMI 1.3 and the enhanced color capablilties plus other stuff, but will be limited to 720p output. Interesting. How's this going to play out, eh? (I can say that, cause I'm also Canadian...)


Edited by VikingShips (10/15/06 11:07 AM)

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#149365 - 10/15/06 11:27 AM Re: HD-DVD [Re: VikingShips]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17775
Loc: NoVA
Well, one of the two will become dominant, and the studios will win because people are willing to accept more and more restrictions on their fair use--like the studios excersizing their option to output in 540p if component outputs are used instead of HDMI.


Hey, it's been about a month since I've bitched about this stuff.
_________________________
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#149366 - 10/15/06 02:18 PM Re: HD-DVD [Re: Ken.C]
Thasp Offline
devotee

Registered: 03/27/04
Posts: 338
Yeah. It's pretty pathetic that you get more rights if you download people's captures of HDTV versions of a movie on the internet, opposed to actually buying it.

They have HDMI capture cards out now though - again proving that, whatever steps they take to limit what people do with the media they own are just a waste of money.

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#149367 - 10/15/06 08:01 PM Re: HD-DVD [Re: Thasp]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17775
Loc: NoVA
Got a link? I'd love to know what you can do with those things.
_________________________
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#149368 - 10/17/06 03:11 PM Re: HD-DVD [Re: Ken.C]
Robot Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 08/24/06
Posts: 24
Do we have any HD-DVD owners here? I was (and guess still am) an early adopter and I've loved having the player. It's big, it's clunky, it's slow, but the picture and sound are amazing. Worth every penny, IMO.
_________________________
VP150 / QS8(3) / M60s

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#149369 - 10/17/06 06:20 PM Re: HD-DVD [Re: Robot]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11202
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
Yeah, I have the HD-A1. I like it so far, though discs with even just a tiny bit of junk on the surface will skip or pause and then catch up. Other than that and the load times, I'm really happy to have movies in high-definition. There are plenty of movies I'll be wanting on Blu-ray, unfortunately (Sense and Sensibility and Kung Fu Hustle, especially), but I'd really rather have HD DVD win, so that's why I threw in my support, and why I keep buying titles.

C.V.

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#149370 - 10/24/06 11:50 AM Re: HD-DVD [Re: Robot]
jimmienorton Offline
veteran

Registered: 01/29/06
Posts: 150
Loc: maryland
love my hd dvd
_________________________
2-M80v2 VP150 4-QS8 EP500 DENON 4306 Panny AE900 Toshiba HD-XA1/PS3

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#149371 - 10/24/06 12:51 PM Re: HD-DVD [Re: Thasp]
INANE Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/04/04
Posts: 1665
Loc: Omaha, Nebraska
Quote:

Yeah. It's pretty pathetic that you get more rights if you download people's captures of HDTV versions of a movie on the internet, opposed to actually buying it.

They have HDMI capture cards out now though - again proving that, whatever steps they take to limit what people do with the media they own are just a waste of money.




Equipment like that will cause the studios to turn on the 540p crap in HDCP.
_________________________
-Ben
HT v2.0 !
HT v1.0

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#149372 - 10/24/06 01:56 PM Re: HD-DVD [Re: Robot]
biggsly5000 Offline
local

Registered: 11/30/04
Posts: 205
Loc: Atascocita, TX
I hope HD-DVD wins, I hate Sony's stategy of making everything proprietery and charging more for it. I try not to buy Sony products for this very reason.
_________________________
M80ti's, VP150, QS8's

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#149373 - 10/24/06 03:26 PM Re: HD-DVD [Re: biggsly5000]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3904
Loc: Up yonder
I was all fired up to go HD-DVD seeing how HD TV isn't an option where I live (it takes two, four foot dishes to get a whopping 10 HD channels). In light of that little problem and the fact that I've got close to 500 SD DVD's, I just ordered a DVDO VP-50. I'm hopefull that the VP will give me an 'almost' HD experience with all my SD stuff.

http://www.dvdo.com/pro/pro_isvp50.php
_________________________


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#149374 - 10/24/06 04:50 PM Re: HD-DVD [Re: michael_d]
Sutter Cane Offline
aficionado

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 626
Loc: Wichita, KS
HD-DVD owner here! I can't stand to watch SD-DVD's anymore. Once you go High Def, it's hard to look at anything else. That said, the Tosh does an excellent job with SD-DVD's as well.

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#149375 - 10/25/06 12:26 AM Re: HD-DVD [Re: Sutter Cane]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11202
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
I agree about the upscaling on the Toshiba HD DVD players. I had a Samsung upscaling DVD player, and it doesn't hold a candle to the HD DVD player's upscaling.

I'm up to 16 HD DVDs, but I think I really like only half of those. I bought a lot of DVDs I didn't really love when they first started coming out, too. Like I just got The Perfect Storm, since it's one of the few that has a Dolby TrueHD soundtrack. I had never seen it before, but the reviews on Amazon.com made it seem like it didn't suck COMPLETELY. Well, the drama was inflated, and the score made it even hokier. It was a really feeble grab at my heartstrings. That being said, the picture was nice enough, and the sound, too. I hope more studios hurry up with the releases, though, so I don't get sidetracked by stuff I'm unsure about.

I see that Casablanca is coming out on HD DVD soon. I'll get it even though I already have the DVD, and I don't really know how much the higher resolution will help an old black and white film. I'm a good consumer.

C.V.

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#149376 - 10/25/06 12:47 AM Re: HD-DVD [Re: CV]
Sutter Cane Offline
aficionado

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 626
Loc: Wichita, KS
Quote:

I agree about the upscaling on the Toshiba HD DVD players. I had a Samsung upscaling DVD player, and it doesn't hold a candle to the HD DVD player's upscaling.

I'm up to 16 HD DVDs, but I think I really like only half of those. I bought a lot of DVDs I didn't really love when they first started coming out, too. Like I just got The Perfect Storm, since it's one of the few that has a Dolby TrueHD soundtrack. I had never seen it before, but the reviews on Amazon.com made it seem like it didn't suck COMPLETELY. Well, the drama was inflated, and the score made it even hokier. It was a really feeble grab at my heartstrings. That being said, the picture was nice enough, and the sound, too. I hope more studios hurry up with the releases, though, so I don't get sidetracked by stuff I'm unsure about.

I see that Casablanca is coming out on HD DVD soon. I'll get it even though I already have the DVD, and I don't really know how much the higher resolution will help an old black and white film. I'm a good consumer.

C.V.



I know exactly where you're coming from on that. My HD-DVD collection isn't what one would call very big. Mainly because I won't just buy and HD-DVD because it's on HD-DVD. If I don't truly like the film, or if it's something I don't think I'll watch all that often, then I just pass on it, well, at least for now. lol

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#149377 - 10/26/06 01:13 PM Re: HD-DVD [Re: Sutter Cane]
HomeDad Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 3301
Loc: Central,California
Batman Begins has gotten some pretty great reviews for HD-DVD, that will be one of the first I pick up once I get my player.
_________________________
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.

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#149378 - 10/26/06 07:57 PM Re: HD-DVD [Re: HomeDad]
jimmienorton Offline
veteran

Registered: 01/29/06
Posts: 150
Loc: maryland
best movie out so far for hddvd, just my 2 cents. Just waiting for V for Ven. and MI3 next week.
_________________________
2-M80v2 VP150 4-QS8 EP500 DENON 4306 Panny AE900 Toshiba HD-XA1/PS3

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#149379 - 11/01/06 06:57 PM Re: HD-DVD [Re: jimmienorton]
jimmienorton Offline
veteran

Registered: 01/29/06
Posts: 150
Loc: maryland
Well both came out and all I can say is wow,the video is top notch and the audio on V is out of this world(TrueHD).
_________________________
2-M80v2 VP150 4-QS8 EP500 DENON 4306 Panny AE900 Toshiba HD-XA1/PS3

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#149380 - 11/10/06 03:46 PM Re: HD-DVD [Re: jimmienorton]
HomeDad Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 3301
Loc: Central,California
After missrouting my Xbox 360 HD DVD add on, UPS should be delivering it today. It comes with King Kong in HD DVD, I just purchased MI 3, and am waiting for Batman Begins in the mail. I'm looking forward to see if there is a big differnce and will post my thoughts later.
_________________________
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.

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#149381 - 11/11/06 12:22 AM HD-DVD up and running [Re: HomeDad]
HomeDad Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 3301
Loc: Central,California
For those that are interested, here are my first impressions of HD DVD. To begin with I'll say I was very skeptical about how much improvement I would actually get out of HD DVD or Blu-ray.
For regular DVD's I'm using a Denon 3910 that I have set to upscale to 720p through HDMI into my 720p Toshiba plasma. I've always thought the picture was outstanding.
Since I received King Kong with the 360 hd dvd player and that happened to be one of the titles I owned, my comparison was on.
To make a long story short, and as much as it pains me to say it, the HD DVD was a decisive winner. The colors and clarity are remarkable, when watching the regular dvd I almost felt like I was looking through smudged glasses.
I realize there are good and bad HD DVD's out there, and since King Kong is new, I'm not sure how it ranks compared to other HD DVD's, but if the rest are anywhere near this good, I'm sold on HD movies regardless of the two formats.
_________________________
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.

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#149382 - 11/11/06 12:53 AM Re: HD-DVD up and running [Re: HomeDad]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10389
Interesting observations, Michael, and not too surprising. As has been pointed out many times, although scaling the 480 material on a regular DVD up allows a full picture to be shown on a 720 or 1080 display, the "real" resolution isn't increased and is still 480. So, an HD disc should look at least a little sharper if other factors in the production are held constant(some other factors might be improved in a newer disc, independent of the higher resolution). By the way, you should be prepared for the PMs you might be getting, requesting the regular DVDs that you'll surely not be needing anymore.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#149383 - 11/11/06 02:05 AM Re: HD-DVD up and running [Re: HomeDad]
St_PatGuy Offline
axiomite

Registered: 03/07/05
Posts: 7403
Loc: Glendale, Arizona
Thanks for sharing your impressions, Michael. Buying this add-on for the 360 may be the most cost effective way for me to get into HD DVD. I'm sure the cost of stand alone players will come down, but that's a ways down the road and I'm itchin' to try this new fangled technology!
_________________________
***********
"Nothin' up my sleeve. . ." --Bullwinkle J. Moose

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#149384 - 11/11/06 02:10 AM Re: HD-DVD up and running [Re: HomeDad]
jimmienorton Offline
veteran

Registered: 01/29/06
Posts: 150
Loc: maryland
Glad to see you joined the club, KK I have not seen yet but so far seems to be up at the top for video from what im hearing at AVS forum. V for V and F&F TD is good and Batman Begins rock on video and sound. To bad the 360 addon does not let you have Dolby TrueHD sound. I think a stand alone player is in your near future.
_________________________
2-M80v2 VP150 4-QS8 EP500 DENON 4306 Panny AE900 Toshiba HD-XA1/PS3

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#149385 - 11/11/06 11:25 AM Re: HD-DVD [Re: HomeDad]
snakeyes Offline
aficionado

Registered: 07/13/04
Posts: 828
Loc: Newburgh, NY
What size is our TV? is it native 720? i think its cool you saw a noticable difference against what is thought to be a reference player for upscaling. i wonder how the pq of the xbox add on compares to the Toshiba stand alone players.
Jake
_________________________
------------------------------------------------
Leave the gun, Take the canolis.

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#149386 - 11/11/06 11:35 AM Re: HD-DVD up and running [Re: HomeDad]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10886
Loc: Central NH
Thanks for the info, Michael.

I have to sheepishly admit that since I was never a "gamer", I didn't realize an HD-DVD option was available for the X-Box 360 I bought last week until the kid at Best Buy mentioned it in passing as I was carrying the unit to the register. I could've sworn he said it was coming out in a month or so, though.

I'll have to Google for some info on it!
_________________________
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::

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#149387 - 11/11/06 12:23 PM Re: HD-DVD [Re: snakeyes]
jimmienorton Offline
veteran

Registered: 01/29/06
Posts: 150
Loc: maryland
PQ is most likley the same, sound is a different story.


Edited by jimmienorton (11/11/06 12:24 PM)
_________________________
2-M80v2 VP150 4-QS8 EP500 DENON 4306 Panny AE900 Toshiba HD-XA1/PS3

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#149388 - 11/11/06 12:38 PM Re: HD-DVD up and running [Re: MarkSJohnson]
HomeDad Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 3301
Loc: Central,California
Here is the first online review of the Xbox 360 HD DVD that I have found on the net. The Man Room It pretty much echoes my thoughts with a little more detail.
I think John hit the head on the nail correctly, upscaling while possibly improving the pq to some extent does not improve the resolution. As Jake also mentioned I was using a near reference DVD player for my comparison. Prior to owning the HD DVD I had browsed in stores at their HD DVD's playing on the displays and thought they looked great, but I didn't feel they had that much of a pq improvement over my memory of my reguar DVD's at home, it was when I got them side by side at home that I could see the remarkable difference.

I'm very pleased with this addition to my home theatre, and as Sean pointed out, what a great and cost effective way to jump into another new technology.
_________________________
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.

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#149389 - 11/11/06 07:50 PM Re: HD-DVD up and running [Re: HomeDad]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3904
Loc: Up yonder
Iíve really got to quit visiting this board.

I couldnít stand all this praise and just ordered a HD-AX1 from One Call. $500 for an open box unit. Itíll probably be all scratched to hell and plagued with problemsÖÖ.
_________________________


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#149390 - 11/11/06 08:26 PM Re: HD-DVD up and running [Re: michael_d]
HomeDad Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 3301
Loc: Central,California
Lol, let us know when you got it up and running, start with a great HD DVD like King Kong, Batman Begins or one of the other suggestions some of the members have brought up, I don't think you will be dissapointed.
_________________________
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.

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#149391 - 11/12/06 01:00 AM Re: HD-DVD up and running [Re: HomeDad]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11202
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
I'm hopeless. I have both the HD-A1 and now the Xbox 360 HD DVD player. I figured I should get it while it's bundled with King Kong and the remote, and I'll use it in my computer room with my smaller HDTV once I get a second Xbox 360 (after they release the updated version with the smaller, cooler processor, and wouldn't it be nice if they threw in HDMI, too?).

I really need to finish getting my Axioms, but I keep getting sidetracked. Gears of War and Call of Duty 3 just came out, so I had to buy those, and the Nintendo Wii comes out in a week, so I'll have to get that and the new Zelda. After that, though, seriously, I'll save for the QS8s and EP500.

C.V.

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#149392 - 11/12/06 08:27 AM Re: HD-DVD up and running [Re: CV]
Jacksmyname Offline
regular

Registered: 10/24/06
Posts: 8
Hi all. I don't own an HD player yet, but should have the new A2 in a week or two (pre-ordered).
So far I have about two dozen HD titles, with a few more on pre-order. When I get it, I'll post my impressions (I have a few titles on both HD and SD to compare).
By all accounts I've read, the HD's are, for the most part, amazing. I have Robin Hood and The Searchers here which are supposed to be outstanding on HD.
Keep ya posted.
Jack

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#149393 - 11/12/06 11:00 AM Re: HD-DVD up and running [Re: Jacksmyname]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3904
Loc: Up yonder
This next week should be pretty busy for me setting up new toys. The X1, VP-50 and my new screen should all show up at about the same time. I think Iíll do some comparisons just for fun.

Oppo 971 with the screen I have now. (according to Secrets, this player is on par with the Denon 5910)
Oppo 970hd with the screen I have now.
The decisive winner between the two Oppoís with the new screen and then leave it on the wall.
X1 with a SD DVD. (It is supposed to be pretty good with up-converting)
970 feeding the VP50 a HDMI 480i signal and letting the VP do its thing.
X1 with HD DVD by itself.
X1 > VP50

I just need to figure out how to take a good screen shot in the dark with my little camera. If any of you are photographers and want to give me some tips on that, that would be great.
_________________________


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#149394 - 12/03/06 03:45 PM Eagles HD/DVD [Re: michael_d]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3904
Loc: Up yonder
I just watched the Eagles HD DVD and WOW!! This has got to be the crispest, clearest, best sounding disks I've ever seen / listen to. Unreal.... The picture is so good that I can actually see the tiny scuffs in the clear coat of Joe Walsh's guitar. And sound.......amazing. If you like the Eagles and have one of these players, you've got to get this disk!

One to NOT buy.....Dune. I forgot how bad this movie was. Now I remember in all its glory. Sound sucked, special effects sucked, the movie sucked. Although I've got to admit that the Barron has never looked more disgusting than he does in HD.

We have a date with Superman later today.
_________________________


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#149395 - 12/03/06 07:37 PM Re: Eagles HD/DVD [Re: michael_d]
HomeDad Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 3301
Loc: Central,California
Good review on the Eagles HD DVD I'll have to look for that one. I'm intersted to hear what you think about Superman, I've got the SD version that I have not had a chance to watch yet and was thinking of buying the HD version.
As I mentioned in another thread the Corpse Bride is stunning with its visuals, and since the extras are in 480 it makes for a great comparison when someone wants to see the difference between SD and HD.
_________________________
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.

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#149396 - 12/04/06 11:53 AM Re: Eagles HD/DVD [Re: HomeDad]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3904
Loc: Up yonder
That Corpse Bride kinda freaked me out in SD. I'm not sure I want to see it in HD. We watched Superman Returns last night in HD. I had not seen this movie before and I thought it was an excellent movie. I really liked all the characters. The "new Lex" was really good. And I though this new Superman has got to be the best one yet (sorry Christopher). As far as the video quality, it is better than the SD version, which is on the back side of the disk. But overall, I was a little disappointed. It just didn't "WOW" me like some of the other HD disks have. The colors were great, but the resolution just seamed to be lacking to me. I think they could have done a little better with the LFE's too. The 600 should have been kicking me in the chest and it wasn't.

I've got Mutiny on the Bounty to watch next. It's a three hour movie, so I have to get in the right frame of mind to sit down that long. Maybe tonight... I've also got Excalibur to watch yet. That's one of my all time favorite 'oldies'. I'm hoping the transfer to HD was done well.

Have you seen U571 yet? I thought that one was pretty darn good.
_________________________


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#149397 - 12/04/06 12:13 PM Re: Eagles HD/DVD [Re: michael_d]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17775
Loc: NoVA
Certainly haven't seen U571 in HD, or even in surround sound, but the movie itself is fantastic. Of course, I love submarine movies. Even K19: The Movie Where People Forget to Speak in Their Fake Russian Accents Sometimes.
_________________________
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#149398 - 12/04/06 12:15 PM Re: Eagles HD/DVD [Re: Ken.C]
Zarak Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 1849
Loc: PA
Watch the U571 depth charge scene with a good sub. I was feeling the vibrations coming up through the couch. It felt like the charges were going off right under me!

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#149399 - 12/04/06 12:26 PM Re: Eagles HD/DVD [Re: Zarak]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16274
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
We watched that scene at Tharkun's house after setting up his dual EP-600s. My junk was jiggling.
_________________________
"I wish I had documented moreÖ" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#149400 - 12/04/06 12:39 PM Re: Eagles HD/DVD [Re: pmbuko]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17775
Loc: NoVA
I never, ever want to hear about your junk again. Jiggling or otherwise.
_________________________
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#149401 - 12/04/06 01:02 PM Re: Eagles HD/DVD [Re: michael_d]
HomeDad Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 3301
Loc: Central,California
I watched Superman in SD last night, I enjoyed the movie but was really dissapointed in the film quality, supposedly it was filmed with the newest digital film cameras, didn't look that way to me.
I've seen U571 in SD and enjoyed it, there are so many movies coming out in HD it's getting hard to sort through them. This is a good site to get some news and reviews on some of the better HD titles. dvdtown
_________________________
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.

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#149402 - 12/05/06 11:23 AM HD/DVD [Re: HomeDad]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3904
Loc: Up yonder
Well if you already have Superman in SD, I wouldnít pick up the HD version unless you have twenty five bucks just burning a hole in your pocket. Even running the X1 through my video processor didnít make it look at that much better than SD.

We watched the HD Excalibur last night. They did a pretty good job with the transfer and video looked very good compared to SD. I was disappointed in the sound though. I think someone forgot the .1 in the 5.1 DTS. There wasnít any LFE at all. But if anyone is a fan of this movie, itís worth picking up.
_________________________


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#149403 - 12/05/06 11:29 PM Re: HD/DVD [Re: michael_d]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11202
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
It's disappointing to hear about Superman Returns in HD. I was kind of looking forward to it. Even if the film was boring, like some people complained, I thought it could at least be a showcase for my system, being shot digitally and all. Rats.

C.V.

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#149404 - 12/06/06 01:31 AM Re: HD/DVD [Re: CV]
spiffnme Offline
axiomite

Registered: 04/01/03
Posts: 5214
Loc: Los Angeles
Quote:

It's disappointing to hear about Superman Returns in HD. I was kind of looking forward to it. Even if the film was boring, like some people complained, I thought it could at least be a showcase for my system, being shot digitally and all. Rats.

C.V.




That's exactly why it looks so bad. It was shot on a 1920x1080 HD camera. That may sound wiz-bang, but if you compare that to film...35mm film has about six times the resolution of HD. Far, far better contrast, and superior color depth.

HD is nice, but you can't expect it to compete with something originally shot on film.

Don't even get me started comparing 35mm to IMAX.
_________________________
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#149405 - 12/06/06 04:05 AM Re: HD/DVD [Re: spiffnme]
BrenR Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 3602
Loc: Winnipeg MB Canada
Quote:

Don't even get me started comparing 35mm to IMAX.


35mm you don't need a fleet of semi trucks to haul the equipment needed for a single angle headshot?

You made my point about film, I need not rant here.

Bren R.

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#149406 - 12/06/06 06:24 AM Re: HD/DVD [Re: michael_d]
jimmienorton Offline
veteran

Registered: 01/29/06
Posts: 150
Loc: maryland
Quote:

Well if you already have Superman in SD, I wouldnít pick up the HD version unless you have twenty five bucks just burning a hole in your pocket. Even running the X1 through my video processor didnít make it look at that much better than SD.

We watched the HD Excalibur last night. They did a pretty good job with the transfer and video looked very good compared to SD. I was disappointed in the sound though. I think someone forgot the .1 in the 5.1 DTS. There wasnít any LFE at all. But if anyone is a fan of this movie, itís worth picking up.




I dont agree with this at all, while not the best looking HD DVD the picture quality was great. Just got the PS3 and rented Black Hawk Down from Netflix,from what I hear one of the best Blu-Ray yet.
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#149407 - 12/06/06 06:27 AM Re: HD/DVD [Re: jimmienorton]
jimmienorton Offline
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Registered: 01/29/06
Posts: 150
Loc: maryland
Oh forgot about the sound,OH THE SOUND OF TRUE HD!!!! It gave me chills.


Edited by jimmienorton (12/06/06 06:30 AM)
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#149408 - 12/06/06 08:27 AM Re: HD/DVD [Re: spiffnme]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
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Posts: 11202
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
> HD is nice, but you can't expect it to compete with
> something originally shot on film.

Yet. And yes, I realize film has the equivalent of a much greater resolution than digital so far, but I didn't think that would matter on a home theater. I'm not using an analog projector. I have a digital television. You'd think something shot digitally at the resolution my TV is capable of outputting would make more sense than film resized and converted.

C.V.

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#149409 - 12/06/06 12:22 PM Re: HD/DVD [Re: jimmienorton]
michael_d Offline
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Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3904
Loc: Up yonder




I dont agree with this at all, while not the best looking HD DVD the picture quality was great. Just got the PS3 and rented Black Hawk Down from Netflix,from what I hear one of the best Blu-Ray yet.




Don't get me wrong. I didn't say the movie was bad, just not that much better than SD and not good enough to warrant the expense of Homedad buying it twice.

And just out of curiosity, how are you getting True Dolby? Do you have HDMI 1.2, or are you running 6 channel analogue?
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#149410 - 12/06/06 01:09 PM Re: HD/DVD [Re: CV]
nickbuol Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4456
Loc: Marion, IA
Quote:

> HD is nice, but you can't expect it to compete with
> something originally shot on film.

Yet. And yes, I realize film has the equivalent of a much greater resolution than digital so far, but I didn't think that would matter on a home theater. I'm not using an analog projector. I have a digital television. You'd think something shot digitally at the resolution my TV is capable of outputting would make more sense than film resized and converted.

C.V.




Keep this in mind. Pretty much anything that is done digitally has some sort of compression applied to it. (I am sure that someone will point out the one or two cases where it isn't.) MP3's are a good example. People RAVE about the sound of their MP3 player, yet they are raving about a highly compressed audio sample. CDs are compressed audio too (a lot of people forget that).

Same with video. DVD's are compressed video, thus the artifacts and grainy video you see many times (caused during the transfer process from film to digital and then the compression algorythms). While a 1080p version of video may match up nicely to your TV (if that is the native resolution of it), the original recording is, dare I say, limited to only 1080 lines of resolution. Considerably less than film. So when the transfer happens to HD-DVD or Blu-Ray, it still gets compressed (you know that even the original "file size" of the full movie is WAY more than what would fit on one disc of either format), but it is compressing a 1080 image, not something at a much greater (film) resolution, so you "miss" some of the details that get "compressed out" of the final transfer for viewing at home.

Another way to look at it is that you can only get a final product as good as the starting product times X (X being a compression percentage shown as a decimal). So if you start with a film at (say 6 times 1080, or 6480), mulitply it by (making up a number here) 65% or .65 to represent the amount of compression applied to it to get it to fit on the end media, you end up with 4212 as some "quality/resolution" number. By that, it obviously gets compressed down to 1080 (or lower), but has the slight nuances of the higher resolution source. Kind of like what people say they get with analog audio. You play some analog music through an analog (good ol' vacuum tubes, or whatever), and you will hear reports of a "warmer" sound, or that you can hear "more" of the nuances to the original recording. Those are all lost with compression, and if you start with a compressed input, your further compressed output will always be less than what your analog (audio) or film final output would be.

RAMBLE DONE....
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#149411 - 12/06/06 01:38 PM Re: HD/DVD [Re: nickbuol]
BrenR Offline
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Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 3602
Loc: Winnipeg MB Canada
I could go on about this... Nick's covered most of it.

The one other point I'd bring up is that movies aren't just shot, cut and delivered. Film doesn't have a "resolution" per se, it has a frame size and a grain size. The bigger the frame (IMAX vs 8mm, anyone?) and the tighter the grain on the stock, the better the result. By the time all the layers of editing (wire/rod removal, rotoscoping, matting, CG effects, digital painting, etc) are done, it's not the same animal.

Take an extreme case. I'm shooting "the Good, the Bad and the Ugly"... I have a long shot of Clint grimacing, in post I realize that, oh hell, it would be insanely cool to push in on Clint's face - forehead to jaw. Shot digital, I'm probably looking at a 320x180 portion of the image. Shot on film, I'm looking at probably an 8mm x 4.5mm portion of the film (depending on gates, film format - Super 35 or Panavision, etc)...

While the film may get grainy and soft and look like what it's become (8mm film), it will still appear better than the 0.06 megapixel digital shot.

That's an extreme case, but you get the idea.

Bren R.

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#149412 - 12/06/06 01:43 PM Re: HD/DVD [Re: BrenR]
Ken.C Offline
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Frankly, with that kind of consideration, I'm surprised they're being dumb enough to shoot in 1920x1080. Is there simply not the storage capacity/bandwidth to deal with shooting higher?
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#149413 - 12/06/06 01:48 PM Re: HD/DVD [Re: BrenR]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3904
Loc: Up yonder
I find all this quite interesting. Keep rambling.

My video processor has numerous options for tailoring it's video source inputs. It's got the option to select film or video, and then goes down further for selecting frame rates. I don't have a clue when I should should select either format or the different frame rates.
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#149414 - 12/06/06 02:09 PM Re: HD/DVD [Re: Ken.C]
BrenR Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 3602
Loc: Winnipeg MB Canada
Quote:

Frankly, with that kind of consideration, I'm surprised they're being dumb enough to shoot in 1920x1800. Is there simply not the storage capacity/bandwidth to deal with shooting higher?


74.6 megabytes of data per second (at 24fps, 4:2:2 colour space) at 1920x1080 and that's with no audio. Not sure what a natural shoot-to-keep ratio for feature films is (never worked on one), but for documentaries it's easily 10 to 1, not counting B-roll.

Assuming a s-t-k of 20:1 for a film, that's about 8 terabytes of footage.

Plus, try to find a CCD that's natively higher in resolution than 1920x1080.

Then doing post/CG additions at insane resolutions turns a render farm into Animal Farm.

Not sure exactly what the answer is, probably a combination of all these.

Bren R.

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#149415 - 12/06/06 02:15 PM Re: HD/DVD [Re: BrenR]
Ken.C Offline
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Loc: NoVA
Well, sounds like they're not really ready to go digital yet, then, are they?
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#149416 - 12/06/06 04:29 PM Re: HD/DVD [Re: Ken.C]
BrenR Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 3602
Loc: Winnipeg MB Canada
Depends, most people can't even tell when they're stretching a 4:3 program into 16:9... I'd say probably a further 25% can't tell a quality difference between VHS and DVD, 95% of people don't see macroblock artifacts in DVD video and 100% of people in sports production can't see a difference between lower-field dominant, 4:1:1 DV footage and upper-field dominant, 4:2:2 Beta footage.

Most people don't notice quality. That's why country albums sell.

Bren R.

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#149417 - 12/06/06 04:48 PM Re: HD/DVD [Re: BrenR]
richeydog Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 1201
Loc: Fresno, CA
Quote:

Most people don't notice quality. That's why country albums sell.



LOL!
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#149418 - 12/06/06 09:53 PM Re: HD/DVD [Re: Ken.C]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11202
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
Yeah, I'm surprised it was only shot in 1080 high-def and not ultra high-def, especially when it was then shown on IMAX screens. Maybe I missed the outcry when Superman Returns was playing on those screens, but it seems like if it could look decent on that large of a screen, it can look good on a home system.

Besides which, when I watch high-def programming, it's usually the shows shot digitally that make me stare, not the films. If Superman Returns has a sucky picture, I'd blame the filmmakers before I blamed the technology.

C.V.

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#149419 - 12/07/06 02:59 AM Re: HD/DVD [Re: michael_d]
jimmienorton Offline
veteran

Registered: 01/29/06
Posts: 150
Loc: maryland
Quote:





I dont agree with this at all, while not the best looking HD DVD the picture quality was great. Just got the PS3 and rented Black Hawk Down from Netflix,from what I hear one of the best Blu-Ray yet.




Don't get me wrong. I didn't say the movie was bad, just not that much better than SD and not good enough to warrant the expense of Homedad buying it twice.

And just out of curiosity, how are you getting True Dolby? Do you have HDMI 1.2, or are you running 6 channel analogue?




I have both HDMI and analogue hooked up but I use HDMI to my Denon 4306 just because its easy.Oh and I think we a focused alot on the video quality,but the sound is so much better also. DD 5.1 has nothing on DD+ 5.1 or Dolby TrueHD 5.1. Most of these titles sound is 1.5 mbps.I am no expert by far but I know when somthing sounds good and I might double dip on a dvd for better sound to.
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#149420 - 12/07/06 03:15 AM Re: HD/DVD [Re: CV]
spiffnme Offline
axiomite

Registered: 04/01/03
Posts: 5214
Loc: Los Angeles
Quote:

> HD is nice, but you can't expect it to compete with
> something originally shot on film.

Yet. And yes, I realize film has the equivalent of a much greater resolution than digital so far, but I didn't think that would matter on a home theater. I'm not using an analog projector. I have a digital television. You'd think something shot digitally at the resolution my TV is capable of outputting would make more sense than film resized and converted.

C.V.




There's far, far more involved in a good looking picture than resolution. In fact SMPTE recently had a test screening comparing a 2K digital projector to a 4K digital projector. It was the consensus of the room that the two were very comparable with no clear winner. (The screeners didn't know which they were seeing). In that case it was mostly the contrast which made the 2K image look as good as the 4K one. Contrast and color bit depth are as important (if not even more so) than pure resolution.
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#149421 - 12/07/06 03:25 AM Re: HD/DVD [Re: spiffnme]
spiffnme Offline
axiomite

Registered: 04/01/03
Posts: 5214
Loc: Los Angeles
These guys are trying 4K capture.

FYI...I've currently run into an issue using After Effects at the office. Aparently I'm the first person to call and complain about this. I can't render out files larger than 4096x4096 in any file format higher than 8-bit. I need to render some 6K and 8K cineon files. After three days on the phone with Adobe, their answer to me was "render out a a lower resolution or buy a Mac.". Nice. We'll be contacting the project manager tomorrow. Grrrrr...

I guess my point there was that we're scanning and manipulating data at 8K. Hehehehehe...
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#149422 - 12/07/06 08:38 AM Re: HD/DVD [Re: richeydog]
nickbuol Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4456
Loc: Marion, IA
Quote:

Quote:

Most people don't notice quality. That's why country albums sell.



LOL!




You said it BrenR!!!
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#149423 - 12/07/06 10:13 AM Re: HD/DVD [Re: spiffnme]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16274
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Hey man, if you need to buy a Mac and have two computers at your desk, then so be it!
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#149424 - 12/07/06 10:15 AM Re: HD/DVD [Re: pmbuko]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17775
Loc: NoVA
So they actually told you that their product was substantially inferior to Final Cut Pro for your application? That's hilarious.
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#149425 - 12/07/06 12:19 PM Re: HD/DVD [Re: jimmienorton]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3904
Loc: Up yonder
Jimmy,

I still don't quite get how you are getting true Dolby? Everything that I've read says it's only available via HDMI 1.2 which very few AVR's have or, six channel analogue. And if you run it through analogue, you only get 5.1. At least that's my understanding of it, and I don't understand much. So far just about every HD disk I have has played in DTS and I haven't noticed any improvements. I'd like to do whatever it is you are to get better sound.....is it a Denon Link thing?
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#149426 - 12/07/06 12:27 PM Re: HD/DVD [Re: michael_d]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3904
Loc: Up yonder
I finally got around to watching the HD version of Mutiny on the Bounty last night. What a good movie! I really enjoyed it and seeing Marlon Brando skinny was quite a shock to me. This is the first time I've ever been able to sit through this movie as it was always on TV and barley viewable to me. In HD it's not on par with the new HD DVD's, but the video is very good. They didn't do much with the sound though. There's no LFE track that I could detect, and I'm not real sure what in the heck was going on, but every now and then, I'd get a 'pop' or other weird noise from one of the speakers. Not often enough to stop the movie, but enough to get irritating. I though my battery was going dead in my smoke detector so I changed it out. Well it wasn't the smoke detector.....
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#149427 - 12/07/06 04:25 PM Re: HD/DVD [Re: BrenR]
LightninJoe Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 558
Loc: Portland, OR
Quote:

Most people don't notice quality. That's why country albums sell.

Bren R.




I've talked to a few people about this. One of my friends is the type who "buys the best because it's the best." He admits that he couldn't tell the difference between his 2-year old plasma and the brand new one but some magazine or other he reads said it's the best so there it is. He further says he doesn't have the time to research these things and simply relies on buying "the best" as far as people who run in his circles and such are concerned. Others may instinctively know a display has higher picture quality but not register is in a fully cognitive way. A friend of my wife came by last night and after watching the new TV for almost an hour said "you know, it seems like I'm seeing a lot more stuff on this TV than maybe I usually do. Everybody's complexions look so poor and scraggly." Well put, I must say. But that is her reference point when comparing her normal experience on her SD set HD on my new set.

I guess your statement is true, in general as well as specifically but with the caveat that most people out there DO know quality when it comes to one specific item or area. For example, when asked I could tell you exactly why IBM servers are of higher quality than Dell. Or I could tell you why Bose surround systems are just about the worst value on the market. Or which Vietnamese restaurant to go to in PDX. But there are are plenty of areas where I am clueless. But I like to try to FIND quality through research and empirical data when personal reference lacks.

As far as the Country music quip, well, it's also the reason Applebee's does such great business.
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#149428 - 12/08/06 02:34 AM Re: HD/DVD [Re: michael_d]
jimmienorton Offline
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Registered: 01/29/06
Posts: 150
Loc: maryland
If you are going thru HDMI(1.1) this is how you get Dolby TrueHD - The XA1 or A1 will decode the TrueHD for you to PCM then sent to Denon 4306. You do not need HDMI 1.2a,1.3 on your AVR to get DD THD the player is the decoder.I think I said that right.


Edited by jimmienorton (12/08/06 02:35 AM)
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#149429 - 12/08/06 02:53 AM Re: HD/DVD [Re: jimmienorton]
richeydog Offline
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Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 1201
Loc: Fresno, CA
Quote:

If you are going thru HDMI(1.1) this is how you get Dolby TrueHD - The XA1 or A1 will decode the TrueHD for you to PCM then sent to Denon 4306. You do not need HDMI 1.2a,1.3 on your AVR to get DD THD the player is the decoder.I think I said that right.




That is how I understand it as well. I just couldn't explain it...damn technology.
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#149430 - 12/08/06 10:43 AM Re: HD/DVD [Re: jimmienorton]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3904
Loc: Up yonder
Quote:

If you are going thru HDMI(1.1) this is how you get Dolby TrueHD - The XA1 or A1 will decode the TrueHD for you to PCM then sent to Denon 4306. You do not need HDMI 1.2a,1.3 on your AVR to get DD THD the player is the decoder.I think I said that right.




Will you do me a favor and pull up the X1's audio options and let me know how you have it set up? IE: bit stream / PCM / auto and all that. I don't remember all the options, but you'll see them when you pull up the menu.

I have both Coax and hdmi into my AVR and when I swap between the two, Coax sounds much, much better than hdmi. I have the avr's surround set up set to Global, so whatever the difference in sound I'm experiencing is from the X1's set up and not my avr settings.

Also, did you run the latest firmware upgrade for the X1? I'm still waiting for the disk to show up. I heard that this upgrade does something with audio.
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#149431 - 12/08/06 01:23 PM Re: HD/DVD [Re: michael_d]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8288
Loc: Tacoma
Geektastic.
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#149432 - 12/09/06 02:28 AM Re: HD/DVD [Re: michael_d]
jimmienorton Offline
veteran

Registered: 01/29/06
Posts: 150
Loc: maryland
Oh, you dont have the new firmware.Thats your problem,the new FW enables D True HD. When you get your disk set HDMI audio out for PCM and thats all folks. You will think you have hit the lottery! Why not just DL online?
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#149433 - 12/09/06 01:30 PM Re: HD/DVD [Re: jimmienorton]
michael_d Offline
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Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3904
Loc: Up yonder
That's encouraging. Thanks...I have to keep it set at bit stream to get any sound whatsoever.

I'm scared of firmware upgrades. So far this past month, I've smoked an AVR, almost smoked my VP50, and totally screwed up one of Oppo's. I'm not about to try another one without the disk. No way am I doing a download....

Tom....dork.
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#149434 - 01/07/07 10:04 PM Re: HD/DVD new news [Re: michael_d]
HomeDad Offline
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Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 3301
Loc: Central,California
Announced at CES this today.

LG revealed more information on it's upcoming dual format HD-DVD/Blu-ray player today.

The player will play Blu-ray, HD-DVD and standard DVD discs. It will display video at 1080P trough a HDMI 1.2 output.

The player will be available through national retailers, including Best Buy and Circuit City beginning the first week of February for a suggested retail price of $1,199.
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#149435 - 01/08/07 09:36 PM Re: HD/DVD new news [Re: HomeDad]
Lorenzo1000 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/07/04
Posts: 537
Loc: Winterpeg
The new LG dual format player is already on Best Buys website.

LG Dual format
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#149436 - 01/09/07 08:48 AM Re: HD/DVD new news [Re: Lorenzo1000]
nickbuol Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4456
Loc: Marion, IA
SAA-WEEEET...
Not that I am ready to jump on board yet, but I've been waiting for a dual format drive to hit the market. I am still in the HD-DVD camp (if I had to pick "sides"), but like many people, I don't want to be left out in the cold if one format "wins" over the other.
I just got a huge present for Christmas, so I don't get any presents until August 2008 (my birthday month) as part of that "agreement", so maybe by then, they will have a resonably priced dual drive for the PC so I can (finally) build that HTPC....
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#149437 - 01/09/07 02:01 PM Re: HD/DVD new news [Re: nickbuol]
GregM Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/03/04
Posts: 160
Loc: Kirkland, WA
Which receiver are you HD-DVD folk using? I bought an Onkyo 604 with HDMI to go with my Toshiba A2 and returned it for lousy LFE. I am starting to think it was a setup issue but I didn't have problems with the last two HK's I setup for myself or the half dozen other brands I setup of for friends and family. I could have had a defective unit but I doubt it.

I may get the Denon 2307CI or try the Onkyo 804 but only the Onkyo can be returned without question since I would buy it at CC.

If any of you HDMI-HD-DVD folk can chime in with your receiver of choice, I would appreciate it.

Greg

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#149438 - 01/09/07 02:38 PM Re: HD/DVD new news [Re: GregM]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3904
Loc: Up yonder
Greg,

Iíve got a headache that just wonít go away from researching this very question you ask for the past couple of weeks. Iíve read more stinking manuals, called more ďtech supportĒ technicians (that donít know shee-it), read more friggin internet forum posts and exchanged more PMís with folks than I have in the past five years since I first discovered this internet forum world.

Nothing is definite. Nothing is without problems. Nothing works exactly as it is advertised to work.

Even the few HDMI equipped AVRís that have the least amount of reported issues and are considered the most reliableÖ..have problems.

All that being said, these are the units Iíve narrowed my search down to.

The current line of Denonís appear to be the most reliable considering HDMI audio (2807 and up). They will post process 5.1 PCM streams to extract 6 / 7 channels. I can not confirm if they do this by down mixing the 96/24 data streams to 48/24 or not. If they do downmix, you might as well stick to optical or coax and not worry about HDMI if you insist on 7.1.

Yamaha 1700 and 2700 are in the same boat as the Denons. They are also considered reliable and perform post processing. It is confirmed that these units down mix 96/24 data streams.

All the new line of Marantz AVRís are doing well (user comments) but they are so new that there just isnít that many owners around to test them out and report back. I can not confirm if they do any 5.1 post processing or not.

There are NO separates on the market that offer HDMI audio processing and only switch, with the exception of the Anthem D2 and AMV 40/50.

What you need to do if figure out what extra functions you want in an AVR first. This is just me making a suggestion based off my research, but I would stick to the three brands I listed above and pick one of their units with the features you want or need.

I would not wait for any 07 new models because you will just end up being a beta tester for that manufacture. The others have been out long enough to where others have already reported issues and firmware fixes are already being developed to address them.

ÖÖ.good luck.
_________________________


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#149439 - 01/09/07 03:20 PM Re: HD/DVD new news [Re: michael_d]
Lorenzo1000 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/07/04
Posts: 537
Loc: Winterpeg
Quote:

Greg,

Iíve got a headache that just wonít go away from researching this very question you ask for the past couple of weeks. Iíve read more stinking manuals, called more ďtech supportĒ technicians (that donít know shee-it), read more friggin internet forum posts and exchanged more PMís with folks than I have in the past five years since I first discovered this internet forum world.

Nothing is definite. Nothing is without problems. Nothing works exactly as it is advertised to work.

Even the few HDMI equipped AVRís that have the least amount of reported issues and are considered the most reliableÖ..have problems.

All that being said, these are the units Iíve narrowed my search down to.

The current line of Denonís appear to be the most reliable considering HDMI audio (2807 and up). They will post process 5.1 PCM streams to extract 6 / 7 channels. I can not confirm if they do this by down mixing the 96/24 data streams to 48/24 or not. If they do downmix, you might as well stick to optical or coax and not worry about HDMI if you insist on 7.1.

Yamaha 1700 and 2700 are in the same boat as the Denons. They are also considered reliable and perform post processing. It is confirmed that these units down mix 96/24 data streams.

All the new line of Marantz AVRís are doing well (user comments) but they are so new that there just isnít that many owners around to test them out and report back. I can not confirm if they do any 5.1 post processing or not.

There are NO separates on the market that offer HDMI audio processing and only switch, with the exception of the Anthem D2 and AMV 40/50.

What you need to do if figure out what extra functions you want in an AVR first. This is just me making a suggestion based off my research, but I would stick to the three brands I listed above and pick one of their units with the features you want or need.

I would not wait for any 07 new models because you will just end up being a beta tester for that manufacture. The others have been out long enough to where others have already reported issues and firmware fixes are already being developed to address them.

ÖÖ.good luck.




Did you investigate the pioneer elite 84 at all yet?
_________________________
2xM80 VP180 2xQS8 2xM3 HSU STF3 LG 60PS11 Denon 3808 ATI 1506 LCR 2xATI 1502 Oppo BDP-83

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#149440 - 01/09/07 04:23 PM Re: HD/DVD new news [Re: Lorenzo1000]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3904
Loc: Up yonder
Yes, and many others. The P/E's have LFE issues with LPCM.

Here is a link to a 1000+ and counting post on this very subject (PCM audio). http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=738511

Read the first post that the OP is updating, and then go to about post 950 and start reading. Do a search on AVRís that you are interested in. Thereís a lot of very good information on this post from users much, much smarter than I am on this stuff. It wonít take you long to figure out the issues that Iíve hinted at.

Then read this post on pre / proís with hdmi.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=779504

Thereís some very sharp fellers posting some good information regarding HDMI. Opened my eyes and depressed the hell out of me because I found it to be pretty accurate.



Edited by mdrew (01/09/07 04:40 PM)
_________________________


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#149441 - 01/09/07 04:55 PM Re: HD/DVD new news [Re: michael_d]
Lorenzo1000 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/07/04
Posts: 537
Loc: Winterpeg
I know the elite has issues with the LFE being down by 10db through hdmi but pioneer is supposedly fixing this soon by a firmware update. Of course we've all heard this before from companies but if this is true it seems like a good bet to me.

Well I guess if we're looking for a receiver that processes the new sound formats then we have a ways to go.


Edited by Lorenzo1000 (01/09/07 04:59 PM)
_________________________
2xM80 VP180 2xQS8 2xM3 HSU STF3 LG 60PS11 Denon 3808 ATI 1506 LCR 2xATI 1502 Oppo BDP-83

Top
#149442 - 01/09/07 07:29 PM Re: HD/DVD new news [Re: michael_d]
GregM Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/03/04
Posts: 160
Loc: Kirkland, WA
Quote:

Greg,

Iíve got a headache that just wonít go away from researching this very question you ask for the past couple of weeks. Iíve read more stinking manuals, called more ďtech supportĒ technicians (that donít know shee-it), read more friggin internet forum posts and exchanged more PMís with folks than I have in the past five years since I first discovered this internet forum world.

Nothing is definite. Nothing is without problems. Nothing works exactly as it is advertised to work.

Even the few HDMI equipped AVRís that have the least amount of reported issues and are considered the most reliableÖ..have problems.

All that being said, these are the units Iíve narrowed my search down to.

The current line of Denonís appear to be the most reliable considering HDMI audio (2807 and up). They will post process 5.1 PCM streams to extract 6 / 7 channels. I can not confirm if they do this by down mixing the 96/24 data streams to 48/24 or not. If they do downmix, you might as well stick to optical or coax and not worry about HDMI if you insist on 7.1.

Yamaha 1700 and 2700 are in the same boat as the Denons. They are also considered reliable and perform post processing. It is confirmed that these units down mix 96/24 data streams.

All the new line of Marantz AVRís are doing well (user comments) but they are so new that there just isnít that many owners around to test them out and report back. I can not confirm if they do any 5.1 post processing or not.

There are NO separates on the market that offer HDMI audio processing and only switch, with the exception of the Anthem D2 and AMV 40/50.

What you need to do if figure out what extra functions you want in an AVR first. This is just me making a suggestion based off my research, but I would stick to the three brands I listed above and pick one of their units with the features you want or need.

I would not wait for any 07 new models because you will just end up being a beta tester for that manufacture. The others have been out long enough to where others have already reported issues and firmware fixes are already being developed to address them.

ÖÖ.good luck.




I could have written paragraph #1 for you if you know what I mean. I also agree about not wanting to beta test 2007 model receivers. The Onkyo's I have looked at have only been shipping for a few months so they are new enough, but not so new as to be uncharted territory. I think . . .

I am considering the Denon 2307CI but the 2807 is out of my price range. Any thoughts on that model? What I want is for the HD audio played back on my Toshiba A2 through the HDMI to be at least 5.1 in uncompressed Dolby TrueHD, assuming that is available on the disk. I can't go with 6.1 or 7.1 in my current room so I am not worried about that capability.

I think the Onkyo 604/674/804 are good for 5.1 over HDMI, but the 604 is the one that gave me, emphasis on me, lousy LFE. If the Denon 2307CI will do what I want, maybe I'll make that move. Then again, CC will allow me to return the 804 if I dont' like it so maybe I should try it first. If I am happy, then I am good to go and if not, I can still get the Denon.

This bleeding edge stuff has it's limits.

Greg

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#149443 - 01/09/07 09:08 PM Re: HD-DVD [Re: HomeDad]
Tarun Offline
local

Registered: 05/27/05
Posts: 295
Loc: Hillsborough, NJ
All,

I have had this Xbox HD-DVD attachment for a few weeks now. And after watching a few HD titles, I must say I am quite impressed with the little sucker. Batman Begins, Superman Returns, and The Bourne Supremacy to name a few.

I watched the movies at both 720p and 1080i and I must say I am impressed at all resolutions. I wish it was easy to rent these puppies as the price of movies is just not fun at the moment. Blockbuster and or Netflix should be there soon.

:-)

My 2 Cents.
_________________________
-------------------------------------
Denon 4308
M80x2,VP150,EP600,4xQS8

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#149444 - 01/10/07 12:56 AM Re: HD-DVD [Re: Tarun]
nickbuol Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4456
Loc: Marion, IA
Quote:

Blockbuster and or Netflix should be there soon.





Netflix has been renting HD-DVD flicks for a little while now. Not sure about Blockbuster...
_________________________
http://ht.buol.us
M60s, VP180, VP150, QS8s, SVS 20-39PCi, HTPC, JVC RS45, Onkyo TX-NR709, Shakers

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#149445 - 01/10/07 10:57 AM Re: HD-DVD [Re: nickbuol]
thyname Offline
aficionado

Registered: 04/05/05
Posts: 552
Loc: Oakton, VA
Netflix is the way to go, great service and super fast shipping. No price difference in renting Blu-Ray, HD-DVD discs and standard DVDs.
_________________________
Axiom M60s, QS4s, VP100 Onkyo TX-SR804 Oppo 970HD Rotel RB-1080/RCD-1072 REL Q150E sub, PS 3

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#149446 - 01/10/07 11:11 AM Re: HD-DVD [Re: thyname]
HomeDad Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 3301
Loc: Central,California
More fun news "HD-DVD goes beyond 50GB with new disc'
CES
This is getting interesting.
_________________________
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.

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#149447 - 01/10/07 03:03 PM Re: HD/DVD new news [Re: GregM]
GregM Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/03/04
Posts: 160
Loc: Kirkland, WA
Well I splurged and bought the Onkyo 804, but it's my birthday in five days so why not?

I'll give it a whirl tonight and report back later today or tomorrow.

Greg


Edited by GregM (01/10/07 03:03 PM)

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#149448 - 01/10/07 03:06 PM Re: HD/DVD new news [Re: GregM]
Tarun Offline
local

Registered: 05/27/05
Posts: 295
Loc: Hillsborough, NJ
Congratulations...and happy birthday well in advance.
_________________________
-------------------------------------
Denon 4308
M80x2,VP150,EP600,4xQS8

Top
#149449 - 01/10/07 04:28 PM Re: HD/DVD new news [Re: GregM]
dllewel Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 06/20/05
Posts: 1189
Loc: Utah, USA
Yes congrats. And yes, please report back the specifics on the LFE.
_________________________
-Dave

M80s VP150 QS8s EP500s
ravenmanor.com/cinema/

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#149450 - 01/10/07 09:13 PM Re: HD/DVD new news [Re: dllewel]
GregM Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/03/04
Posts: 160
Loc: Kirkland, WA
I spent the last two hours doing seutp and testing with the new Onkyo 804.

First tests were music and SD-DVD's played back from my Toshiba A2 HD-DVD player hooked up via the optical connection. Flawless performance. I had to move my SW's input level from the 11:00 position to the 12:00 position. That is pretty minor compared to the Onkyo 604 I bought two weeks ago. I had the input up to 2:00 and the receiver's input bumped up as well. There is a conspiracy going around that not all receivers are boosting the .1 channel by the required 10db. Maybe that was the problem? OTOH, music CD's which don't have a .1 LFE channel also had low LFE's. I think I had a defective 604. I supposed it could have been setup related but I got my 804 setup without even opening the manual so I doubt that was it.

After the music CD and several important sections in Batman Begins, I played the Dolby Digital trailes from DVD Spectacular. The are all only 30 seconds long and easy to repeat. Played back over the optical connection alll frequencies including LFE's appeared to sound at least as good as the two HK receiver I am used to listening to.

Next up was going to the HDMI connection. I popped the HD version of Batman Begins in the A2 with Dolby True HD as the audio track. I had the HDMI setting set to Auto and the Optical setting set to Bitstream. I have heard this last part is crucial but I have not done a comparison between the two settings. My favorite scenes are at the 19:00 minute mark when Bruce it being trained by Liam Neeson. When Bruce breaks through the ice there is a nice LFE hit that sounded fantastic. Other scenes demoed are evertime Dr. Crane went into Scarecrow mode; very cool sound effects there. I also watched the fight scene when Batman captures Falconi. All in all audio was full and rich but to be honest, I don't notice much of an advantage over regular 5.1. That may be becuase my hearing isn't the best or it may be I need someone to point out where I should notice the difference.

All in all I am pleased with this purchase. I would rather have spend $450 on the 604 but for some reason, that unit didn't perform for me so I am happy with the upgrade knowing I now have system that sounds like I want it to.

One glitch. I was playing back an iTunes burned audio CD in the A2 and it either skipped or the audio dropped out for half a second. I played that portion back again and the audio dropped out a second time. The receiver was set to 76 which is louder than I like so I dropped it down to the mid 50's and then played back that same portion of the song. The problem disappeared. I then turned the volume up to a near deafening 80 and the problem still did not reapppear. I'll check that CD for scratches but won't get too worked up about it. If it happens again I'll post back.

I only have a 5.1 setup so I can't do any 6.1 or 7.1 testing for anybody. But if there are any tests anyone wants me to perform, let me know.

Greg


Edited by GregM (01/10/07 09:18 PM)

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#149451 - 01/11/07 02:33 PM Re: HD/DVD new news [Re: GregM]
dllewel Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 06/20/05
Posts: 1189
Loc: Utah, USA
Glad to hear the new 804 is performing for you. The 604 sounded like it just had a low subwoofer level output for some reason. The 10dB LFE issue wouldn't apply to CDs and shouldn't be a problem over Optical SPDIF- just the multichannel PCM (at least you would think, who knows? )

In regard to the CD audio dropping out, your player isn't sitting on or near the sub where maybe the louder volume is vibrating it, causing it to skip?

Good luck and enjoy the audio now, after you have put in so much research
_________________________
-Dave

M80s VP150 QS8s EP500s
ravenmanor.com/cinema/

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