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#149942 - 10/23/06 12:42 AM Will M80s fill the sub 'gap' - or is it just me?
KenOntko Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 10/12/06
Posts: 22
Loc: Burnaby, B.C., Canada
I have the following setup in 7.1 now:

NHT SB3s (front)
Energy RC-LCR (center)
Energy RC-10s (side)
Energy CR-3s (rear, side-firing dipoles)
Axiom EP-500 sub
Denon 3805 AVR
Denon 2810 DVD
Cambridge DV89 DVD

I listen to more music than HT... that's why I have the Cambridge DV player as it is absolutely silent in its transport during the quiet music moments (and the Denon definitely is not, although the Denon is noticably better for video).

Problem? Even though the NHTs are rated 39-22K +/-3db there was always a noticeable 'gap' between them and the EP-500 - in music. HT seems fine. I've set both the 3805 and the EP-500 to a 80hz xo and experimented with 60 and 100 (can't tell the diff...). So adjusting the ext-in sub level and the channel volumes in both the 3805 and it sounds 'pretty good' - but the EP-500 seems to just 'boom' (volume control is at about 65%) rather than put out defined bass. I listen to a lot of stuff such as jazz and ambient techno and the bass is usually tightly defined on my other system.

Am I missing some adjustment? Would replacing the NHTs with M80s help - and if so, how would I tune them and the EP-500? Would I need to bi-amp the M80s (I can't bi-amp the NHTs) and with what kind of power and control (xo)? Or is there a way to tune the EP-500 better?

I already tried Alan's "sub-woofer crawl" to figure out the best place to put the EP-500 so I'm fairly comfortable about its placement.

So many questions... I just want to listen to good quality music!
_________________________
ken

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#149943 - 10/23/06 12:57 AM Re: Will M80s fill the sub 'gap' - or is it just me? [Re: KenOntko]
bridgman Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 5425
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
If you have a "gap" (presumably you mean a frequency response "hole" ?) between sub and mains that might just mean you need to flip the 'ol phase switch on the subwoofer.

If the mains and sub are out of phase then they cancel each other out at the crossover point...

You may not hear any change if you flip the phase switch yourself -- get someone else to flip the switch while you listen in the normal spot.


Edited by bridgman (10/23/06 12:59 AM)

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#149944 - 10/23/06 01:17 AM Re: Will M80s fill the sub 'gap' - or is it just m [Re: KenOntko]
JasonB Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/30/06
Posts: 105
Loc: St. Albert, AB
If you're running the sub from the low level outputs from your receiver, you should put the crossover on the sub either as high as possible, or preferably disable it completely (if it allows you to do this). The reason is that your receiver is already controlling the crossover before it sends the singal out to the sub. If you tell the sub to control it as well, it may cut even more out the the signal then the receiver intended, which could be creating the hole that you describe.

I also agree with Bridgman's idea that your sub may be out-of-phase.
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____________________________ M22 VP100 QS8 EP500 Yamaha HTR-5960

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#149945 - 10/23/06 04:44 AM Re: Will M80s fill the sub 'gap' - or is it just me? [Re: KenOntko]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10398
Ken, your comment about the noise from the Denon during pauses in the music would make me think that your particular unit is defective in that respect. No player that I've ever had made more than a very faint whirring sound that could be heard with my ear close to it and the speakers muted. What you describe would certainly be unacceptable to me when listening to classical music and it's hard to believe that this would be a typical problem with Denon players.

As to the bass "gap", I'd like to add additional emphasis to Jason's point. If that's what you meant, you appear to be using the crossover in both the receiver and the control on the sub simultaneously. If the sub control is actually taking effect at a lower frequency than the receiver crossover(despite the same 80Hz setting)this could create a gap. In any case, the two crossovers may interfere with each other, so the sub control should be set to bypass.

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#149946 - 10/23/06 06:42 AM Re: Will M80s fill the sub 'gap' - or is it just me? [Re: KenOntko]
real80sman Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/16/02
Posts: 1124
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Ken, it sounds as if you know what you are doing, so please don't take offense to my question.

Quote:

So adjusting the ext-in sub level and the channel volumes in both the 3805 and it sounds 'pretty good' - but the EP-500 seems to just 'boom' (volume control is at about 65%) rather than put out defined bass. I listen to a lot of stuff such as jazz and ambient techno and the bass is usually tightly defined on my other system.





I am assuming that you are doing this with a test disc and an SPL meter? Along with what the others have suggested, if the 500 is just "booming" you may also have it's level set too high.

Also on those setup discs, they have frequency sweeps. With a meter, you will be able to tell "where" in the frequency range (and "where" in the room) things are dropping out at.

Quote:

.....and the bass is usually tightly defined on my other system.





What are you running for speakers in the other system? For kicks, have you tried swapping the subs, the mains, or both? I know I was happier with my system in the basement of the old house than I am with it on the main floor of the new one. A big part of it may be the room.
_________________________
Shawn

Epic 80/600 + M3's + Custom Finish Algonquin V3's

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#149947 - 10/23/06 08:39 AM Re: Will M80s fill the sub 'gap' - or is it just me? [Re: KenOntko]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10911
Loc: Central NH
Quote:

I've set both the 3805 and the EP-500 to a 80hz xo




I agree with Jason above. You've got TWO crossovers inline.
_________________________
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::

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#149948 - 10/23/06 11:20 AM Re: Will M80s fill the sub 'gap' - or is it just me? [Re: MarkSJohnson]
KenOntko Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 10/12/06
Posts: 22
Loc: Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Wow! Thanks guys. I'll try some stuff out later.

To answer some questions (and maybe give me some help):

-> I'm running the sub from the sub-out in the pre-out area of the Denon, set to LFE (not LFE+main).
-> Unfortunately I can't disable the xo in the Denon. Do you suggest therefore that I set the EP-500 to 100hz and try to control with the Denon? Or the other way around? Or will it matter at all.
-> My other system (5.1) has Energy C-5s (front floorstanding) NHT SuperCentre (center) NHT SuperOnes (rear), and a custom 10" downward-firing passive sub driven by a NHT SA-2 amp/xo where the xo is continuously variable from 20 - 120hz. When I move this sub to the Denon system I set the xo to 80hz as well... and all the bass nuances (especially on my jazz stuff with acoustic bass) comes into focus.
-> I've tried the phase switch several times - but by myself. I'll get someone else to flip it tonight.
-> I'm using neither a test disc nor a SPL meter! Just my comparisons when I plug in the other sub... If you can recommend a test disc and a SPL meter please do so! (Thanks! )
-> I initially (Jan '06) had a Denon 1920 and the motor noise I found unacceptable. Figuring "what can you expect for $400" I upgraded to the 2910 in March. It had lower motor noise - but wasn't silent at all. So I took it back and in a quiet listening room did back-to-back comparisons with the 2910, the 3910, and an Integra. All had unacceptable transport noise during quiet parts of the music (sitting 10' away). After some research the Cambridge was pointed out to me and it is absolutely silent. I should mention that I have about 40 SACDs / DVD-As as well so needed that feature which restricted my choice somewhat.

I really appreciate the comments, folks!
_________________________
ken

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#149949 - 10/23/06 12:00 PM Re: Will M80s fill the sub 'gap' - or is it just me? [Re: KenOntko]
HomeDad Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 3301
Loc: Central,California
Ken, what most of us do is set the EP500 on bypass and the receiver at 80hz. Along with all the speakers to small. Seems to work out very well.
_________________________
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.

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#149950 - 10/23/06 12:16 PM Re: Will M80s fill the sub 'gap' - or is it just me? [Re: KenOntko]
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6251
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Quote:

->Do you suggest therefore that I set the EP-500 to 100hz and try to control with the Denon? Or the other way around? Or will it matter at all.



Hi Ken. Just set the crossover on the EP500 to "BYPASS." This will allow the incoming signal from your Denon to bypass the EP500's crossover entirely. This is what you want, since you'll be using the crossover in the Denon.

Quote:

-> I'm using neither a test disc nor a SPL meter! Just my comparisons when I plug in the other sub... If you can recommend a test disc and a SPL meter please do so! (Thanks! )




There are a number of good calibration discs available. The most common are Digital Video Essentials (DVE) (the NTSC version NOT the PAL version), The Avia Guide To Home Theater, and Sound & Vision Home Theater Tune-Up.

I just heard about the Discwasher DVD Home Theater Setup Disc. I'm not familiar with this particular disc, but I believe both Sirquack and Jakeman are. Maybe they'll stop by and share their experience with this disc with us. It is, by far, the least expensive of all the discs.

The Radio Shack Sound Pressure Level (SPL) meter will do just fine.

Here are some links which will explain the various discs, and calibration in general.

AN INTRODUCTION TO TEST & CALIBRATION DVDS aka "Why the hell do I need one of these things?" (To learn about DVE, AVIA, and Sound & Vision scroll down far enough to read "THE DIFFERENT DISCS AND THEIR ATTRIBUTES")

Essential Accessories: The Radio Shack Sound Pressure Level Meter

A Quick Overview of Home Theater Calibration

Calibrating Your Home Theater System

How To Set Up a Subwoofer (or Subwoofers) for Home Theater

Subwoofer Setup Guide by Bossobass

Common Subwoofer Set-Up Errors by Edward J M

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#149951 - 10/23/06 12:43 PM Re: Will M80s fill the sub 'gap' - or is it just me? [Re: Ajax]
KenOntko Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 10/12/06
Posts: 22
Loc: Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Thanks guys!

I'll try the "bypass" setting tonight and Jack's left me with some reading to do...
_________________________
ken

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