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#149952 - 10/24/06 01:33 AM Re: Will M80s fill the sub 'gap'? [Re: KenOntko]
KenOntko Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 10/12/06
Posts: 22
Loc: Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Tried the bypass. Tried the phase switch. Experimented with the "flat" and "half" settings on the EP-500 (kids make great remote controls... ). Made sure all speakers were at 'small' at turned off DRC in the Cambridge. Experimented a bit with different xo cutoffs in the Denon (60, 80, 100, 120). And there is some improvement - now there's a harsh cutoff from the EP-500 to the NHTs. What this needs is some blending... if only I knew how. Sigh. The EP-500 just seems to 'boom' and not actually define musical notes. I have it sitting 3' from the side wall and 1' off the back wall. It's sort of mid-way between the center of the front speakers and the right front (the entire width of the front wall is 12').

It's awkward to do exact back-to-backs with my other system but the C-5 towers seem to blend a lot better with the other sub. BTW the AVR (a Sony ES series) is set to a 80hz xo and the front speakers to 'large' in that system.

Oh well.
_________________________
ken

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#149953 - 10/24/06 02:05 AM Re: Will M80s fill the sub 'gap'? [Re: KenOntko]
JasonB Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/30/06
Posts: 105
Loc: St. Albert, AB
Well that could be a positioning problem. You can try either moving the sub to a different location, or for less hastle, even turn it 90 degrees or something. Just something to give it a new position/orientation to see if your results change at all. Sometimes even a very slight adjustment (a couple inches) can make a noticable change in sound.
_________________________
____________________________ M22 VP100 QS8 EP500 Yamaha HTR-5960

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#149954 - 10/24/06 03:00 AM Re: Will M80s fill the sub 'gap'? [Re: KenOntko]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10307
Ken, as to the "blending" that you speak of, this is exactly what the receiver's bass management is designed to do. For example, when 80Hz is set, the mains are rolled off(not sharply cut off)below 80Hz at 12dB per octave, and the sub is rolled off above 80Hz at 24dB per octave. So, it's unclear what the "harsh cutoff" you mention is.

Boominess is certainly not a characteristic of the EP500 that other users have experienced. As Jason and others have pointed out, this may have to do with your listening room, or more specifically the position of the sub within it. Another point is have you calibrated the levels of the sub and speakers with the automatic setup on the 3805(if you have the setup microphone)? Simply having the sub too loud in relation to the speakers can give an impression of boominess. The sub shouldn't be loud enough to draw attention to itself; the impression should be that it isn't working, but that the speakers are putting out more bass.
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#149955 - 10/24/06 03:10 AM Re: Will M80s fill the sub 'gap'? [Re: KenOntko]
real80sman Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/16/02
Posts: 1115
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Ken, as much as everyone will argue against it, in my current room I found I needed to run the mains "large" and "LFE+main". (and I have the M80's & EP600) With every other setting, I was unhappy with music. Movies are always great, but music......

Try this, and experiment with the Denon x-over and the sub phase switch again.

Also keep in mind that your other sub may have a mid-bass "hump" that may make it seem fuller near your main's natural roll off, whereas the 500 has a flatter response.
_________________________
Shawn

Epic 80/600 + M3's + Custom Finish Algonquin V3's

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#149956 - 10/24/06 10:05 AM Re: Will M80s fill the sub 'gap'? [Re: KenOntko]
bridgman Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 5256
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
What are your room dimensions, and where is your listening position ? I noticed you said the sub is at 65% -- that seems pretty high at first glance. Wondering if there is some kind of response dip in the room forcing you to turn the volume up higher than normal to compensate, giving you a boomy result...

You mentioned another sub -- have you tried putting it in exactly the same spot as the EP500 ?

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#149957 - 10/24/06 10:06 AM Re: Will M80s fill the sub 'gap'? [Re: KenOntko]
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6215
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Ken, until you properly calibrate your system using an SPL meter and either the tones from your receiver or one of the discs previously mentioned, we can't be sure just exactly what is going on. When balancing individual speaker volumes by ear, it is very common to have the subwoofer volume set way too hot resulting in excessive ("boomy") bass. I'm not saying that is what's going on in your case, but we won't know until your system is accurately calibrated.
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#149958 - 10/24/06 10:23 AM Re: Will M80s fill the sub 'gap'? [Re: real80sman]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13311
Loc: Iowa
Hey Shawn, currently I use 80hz crossover with all small. Seems fine for music and movies to me with my 60's and ep500. I'll have to give the LFE+Main option a try again for the 60's, they put out killer bass, this could be like having a second sub in my HUGE room.
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M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#149959 - 10/25/06 07:49 PM Re: Will M80s fill the sub 'gap'? [Re: SirQuack]
KenOntko Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 10/12/06
Posts: 22
Loc: Burnaby, B.C., Canada
I'd like to thank everyone for their help to date. Very much . I will need a bit of time to do the SPL meter / test disc sort of thing so I'll let you know how that works.

To finish off the last bit of questions (which I don't expect a reply to!):
-> Alan Lofft and I were going back and forth earlier this year about my other sub (which I have tried in the same position as the EP-500). Reason? There is a minor null spot in my room that effects the EP-500 but not the downward-firing sub. He was curious... regardless I have now placed the EP-500 in a place that avoids the null spot.
-> The room is 12'x22' (x8' high). The null spot strangely enough is between 4' and 6' on either side from the front. I have french doors mid-way on one long side and directly opposite them a smallish fireplace.
-> Yep, I may have the EP-500 way too 'hot'. As Jack said, without the SPL meter its hard to tell. I'm only comparing it to my other sub + the C-5 towers where the (mostly acoustic) bass seems better 'defined' - but that's by ear only.
-> the changes suggested by everyone *have* made a difference to the better. By 'sharp cut-off' what I mean is that there are some notes, mostly noticed in cello, (yep I listen to all kinds of stuff, I also like jazz, Paul Weller, and Peter Green era Fleetwood Mac) that seem to 'roll up' from the EP-500, go sorta 'flat' and then get picked up by the NHTs. Nothing real dramatic at all, just not quite as 'full' as the other system.
-> and yes, on ambient music the system does now sound a lot better. I do think that I had 'duelling crossovers' going for a while there.

Again - thanks a lot guys. No reply expected... I gotta do some SPL work now.
_________________________
ken

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#149960 - 10/25/06 11:20 PM Re: Will M80s fill the sub 'gap'? [Re: KenOntko]
KenOntko Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 10/12/06
Posts: 22
Loc: Burnaby, B.C., Canada
After all that, the answer, to my ears, was very simple.

Change the front speakers to 'large' but leave it on LFE (not LFE+main). I'm still subjectively listening to the xo at 60 and 80 to see what I like best - but there's a huge change. Stunning, really. I feel good!
_________________________
ken

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#149961 - 10/26/06 09:35 AM Re: Will M80s fill the sub 'gap'? [Re: real80sman]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3822
Loc: Up yonder
Quote:

Ken, as much as everyone will argue against it, in my current room I found I needed to run the mains "large" and "LFE+main". (and I have the M80's & EP600) With every other setting, I was unhappy with music. Movies are always great, but music......




I just did this yesterday. I also set my center speakers (M22's in parallel) to large. The surrounds and backs are set to small and at 100. I'm much happier with it and LFE is very smooth to my ears and the SPL meter. I think over the past week I’ve spent close to twenty hours moving speakers, tweaking things with an arsenal of remotes, SPL meters, Test tones, test dvds, listening to different cds and dvds. I’m done and I ain’t changing a frigging thing.

I reckon it just goes to show that the common assumption that speakers should be set to 'small' doesn't always hold true. Everyone should try different things to achieve what they think sounds best to them, in their particular application.
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