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#152232 - 11/27/06 04:41 PM Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M80?
PeterChenoweth Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 1349
Loc: Jacksonville, IL
Ok, I need some advice. Here's the situation.

I currently have a pair of M22's as fronts, a VP150 for my center, and two pairs of Energy Take 5's acting as the rear channels in my home 7.1 setup (I still have the center from the T5 system, I just don't use it). The .1 is a $300 Kenwood 10" sub that's about 10 years old - it still works pretty well, but it is old. I may not know what I'm missing compared to a modern sub. I have a Pioneer Elite 43TX receiver powering it all. My wife and I are thinking about upgrading our system as a Christmas present to ourselves. Our den is roughly 18x24x10, and we're about a 60/40 mix of movies/music.

Our only real complaint is a lack of low-midrange warmth. I've slowly tweaked the receiver settings for the past couple of years, and it's pretty good now - but we want more. The subwoofer has plenty of power for LFE, but it doesn't seem add a whole lot musically to the low-end of the M22's.

The budget is about $1,000, give or take. I can't decide what I should do...

Option A) Replace the sub with an EP175/EP350 or an SVS PCi 20-39, and maybe pop for a pair of QS4's (maybe even stretch it and get QS8's). I would then hope that the much higher quality sub adds to the overall warmth of the system. This would make our entire system an Axiom one (going with the EP), eliminating all of the other "weak" links. As an added bonus, I'd now have a re-completed Energy Take 5 system + Kenwood sub that I could put in the bedroom.

or

Option B) Replace the M22's with M60/M80's, moving the M22's back to take over the main pair of rear channels (or just moving back to a 5.1 setup). I've always had the 'what-ifs' about the M60's/M80's . I realize that the M22's aren't really designed to be surrounds - so with this option I'd probably eventually replace the M22's with QS4's/8's and migrate the M22's to our bedroom, but that will have to wait a few months.

So I guess this really boils down to the old M60/M80 vs M22 w/ sub debate. What do you other wise Axiom owners recommend?


Edited by PeterChenoweth (11/27/06 04:49 PM)

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#152233 - 11/27/06 06:25 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: PeterChenoweth]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17767
Loc: NoVA
Option 1. Hands down, a better sub will make you really, really enjoy the system. Also, the QSx surrounds are great. I would probably go with the SVS over the Axiom subs, although I have to admit I've never heard Axiom's lower end subs.
_________________________
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#152234 - 11/29/06 04:26 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M80? [Re: PeterChenoweth]
Lorenzo1000 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/07/04
Posts: 537
Loc: Winterpeg
I say get an EP 500, $1080 from the factory outlet and wait to upgrade the surrounds and back. You'll get a lot more out of the sub exchange.
_________________________
2xM80 VP180 2xQS8 2xM3 HSU STF3 LG 60PS11 Denon 3808 ATI 1506 LCR 2xATI 1502 Oppo BDP-83

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#152235 - 11/29/06 04:37 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M80? [Re: PeterChenoweth]
PeterChenoweth Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 1349
Loc: Jacksonville, IL
Thanks to both of you for the advice. While the EP500 looks nice, it just seems to be quite expensive compared to SVS's offerings. I've had my eye on the SVS PCi+ 20-39 for quite some time, and I can get it and a pair of QS4's for about the same money as one EP500. My room is small enough (and hardwood floors) that I suspect the added power of the EP500 would be overkill.

That said, if anyone has direct experience comparing SVS's PCi+ line to the EP500, I'd love to hear about it.


Edited by PeterChenoweth (11/29/06 04:41 PM)

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#152236 - 11/29/06 04:41 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M80? [Re: Lorenzo1000]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.
I would suggest the Hsu STF 3 in 20HZ mode ( an added cost of $50 ) and a set of QS 4s. This would bring you to a total of $1010. The Hsu would rock your socks off in that size room.
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#152237 - 11/29/06 04:45 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M80? [Re: Wid]
PeterChenoweth Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 1349
Loc: Jacksonville, IL
I noticed that Hsu was having a sale on the STF-3 @ only $480. That seems to be a tremendous deal. I know both Hsu and SVS subs are praised around here.

But again, I am in this for the long haul, so if someone can say that the EP500 is really worth 2x+ the cost of the STF-3, I'd be willing to listen.
_________________________
M80v2 | VP150v2 | QS8v2
SVS Pci+ 20-39
Emotiva UMC-1 & LPA-1
M22ti + T-Amp, in the Office

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#152238 - 11/29/06 04:48 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M80? [Re: PeterChenoweth]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.

To bad you weren't a little closer to my town, I would invite you over to check out the STF 3. The M80s too
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#152239 - 11/29/06 04:49 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M80? [Re: Wid]
PeterChenoweth Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 1349
Loc: Jacksonville, IL
You'd be surprised how far I would travel to really hear them. I'd be honored to have a private demo of the M80's and the STF-3. If you're serious, PM me.

Where are you located? Chicago area, I presume?


Edited by PeterChenoweth (11/29/06 04:51 PM)
_________________________
M80v2 | VP150v2 | QS8v2
SVS Pci+ 20-39
Emotiva UMC-1 & LPA-1
M22ti + T-Amp, in the Office

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#152240 - 11/29/06 04:58 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M80? [Re: PeterChenoweth]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.

PM sent
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#152241 - 11/29/06 06:10 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: PeterChenoweth]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8283
Loc: Tacoma
For me, I'd get the STF-3 (or a similarly priced SVS Box) and QS8's. No question.
_________________________
bibere usque ad hilaritatem

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#152242 - 11/29/06 07:25 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: tomtuttle]
Ray3 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 2841
Loc: Rochester, NY
I had the opportunity to do a blind test of what turned out to be the EP500 vs. the SVS PB 12 Ultra last year at Craigsub's.

There were 5 of us and we didn't know what we were hearing. Craig did some tunig and put a hump in via computer, so while we thought we were hearing 4 subs, it really turned out being 2 subs, but with different characteristics.

Each of us filled out a detailed assesssment after each of the 4 sessions.

The verdict - to everyone's ears the EP 500 was clearly the winner. It wasn't close. From a bang for the buck perspective, the EP500 is unbelieveabe.

Add whatever you need to your budget and get the EP500; you will NOT be disappointed.

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#152243 - 11/29/06 11:01 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: Ray3]
PeterChenoweth Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 1349
Loc: Jacksonville, IL
Seeing that the PB 12 Ultra is like $1,300, would it then be safe to say that The EP500 is in an entirely different league that subs such as the STF-3 and the SVS PCi's?

Quote:

I had the opportunity to do a blind test of what turned out to be the EP500 vs. the SVS PB 12 Ultra last year at Craigsub's.

There were 5 of us and we didn't know what we were hearing. Craig did some tunig and put a hump in via computer, so while we thought we were hearing 4 subs, it really turned out being 2 subs, but with different characteristics.

Each of us filled out a detailed assesssment after each of the 4 sessions.

The verdict - to everyone's ears the EP 500 was clearly the winner. It wasn't close. From a bang for the buck perspective, the EP500 is unbelieveabe.

Add whatever you need to your budget and get the EP500; you will NOT be disappointed.



_________________________
M80v2 | VP150v2 | QS8v2
SVS Pci+ 20-39
Emotiva UMC-1 & LPA-1
M22ti + T-Amp, in the Office

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#152244 - 11/29/06 11:10 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: PeterChenoweth]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16273
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
quite safe, yes.
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#152245 - 11/30/06 01:49 AM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: pmbuko]
JasonB Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/30/06
Posts: 105
Loc: St. Albert, AB
I haven't heard the EP500 yet, but it should be here in about 3 weeks. I've read its nothing short of amazing and I don't expect to be disappointed in any way (especially in my current small room ). I've had some trouble with my EP350's stand-by circuit, so long story short, I'm upgrading and removing the mute circuit in the EP500 before it leaves the factory. I'll get to see first hand the difference between these two subs, and hopefully I'll hear (and feel) the $600 price difference.
_________________________
____________________________ M22 VP100 QS8 EP500 Yamaha HTR-5960

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#152246 - 11/30/06 04:10 AM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: JasonB]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Jason, please post your finding as I am debating on the sub/M60 upgrade as well.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#152247 - 11/30/06 10:32 AM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: jakewash]
Ray3 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 2841
Loc: Rochester, NY
Pete - absolutely a step up.

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#152248 - 11/30/06 10:39 AM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: jakewash]
JasonB Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/30/06
Posts: 105
Loc: St. Albert, AB
No problem Jakewash. Is there anything in particular you are interested in hearing about (how low, how loud, how fast, etc.)? Let me know and I'll see what I can do.

There's one song I can't wait to hear when I get it. Michael Buble's "Home" has some REAL deep string bass in it that I've never even heard before. I'm thinking that my EP350 can't quite get it all out, so I'll see if the 500 can pound it out . It shocked me the first time I heard it. I've found the whole CD is one of the best ones I've listened to since I got my setup.
_________________________
____________________________ M22 VP100 QS8 EP500 Yamaha HTR-5960

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#152249 - 11/30/06 10:41 AM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: Ray3]
PeterChenoweth Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 1349
Loc: Jacksonville, IL
Thanks for the continued advice and help. I really appreciate it from everyone!

Ok, so I understand that the EP500 is *better* than the SVS PCi line. But can anyone describe how it is better? I mean, is it just more bass? I can tell from the charts that the EP500 has an incredibly flat response from 20-100hz, so is that smoothness a measure of 'better'? My existing sub already puts out a great deal of LFE, enough to rattle my wife's china, but it's not all that detailed and musical. So absolute power is not really an issue. It's that detail, smoothness, and additional musical ability that I'm specifically interested in. Especially since I'm probably keeping the m22's as my mains, I need something that complements them well.

JasonB, I'm interested in your experiences as you have the m22's and an EP350 and are moving to an EP500. You're a step ahead of me, so to speak.

The budget started at roughly $1k, but if a significant improvement can be had for $500 more (SVS + QS4 vs. EP500 + QS4), than I suspect that Santa can deliver. Heck, my wife is telling me that I should just forgoe the usual jewelry and get her a pair of M80's.


Edited by PeterChenoweth (11/30/06 10:58 AM)
_________________________
M80v2 | VP150v2 | QS8v2
SVS Pci+ 20-39
Emotiva UMC-1 & LPA-1
M22ti + T-Amp, in the Office

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#152250 - 11/30/06 11:00 AM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: PeterChenoweth]
Hutzal Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Hollywood. (Canadian @ <3)
Peter,

The EP500 would compare to the PC Ultra if anything from the PC line from SVS.

So don't even consider the PCi line when comparing to the EP500, if you want a fare comparison, check out the PC Ultra.
_________________________
Producer | Composer
www.robbhutzal.com

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#152251 - 11/30/06 11:07 AM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: Hutzal]
PeterChenoweth Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 1349
Loc: Jacksonville, IL
Agreed, price-wise the Ultra is the closest comparison. But why is the EP500 so much better than anything in the PCi line?

I mean, a PCi 20-39 is half the cost of an EP500, is the EP500 worth twice the cost and what is it about the EP500 (or the SVS Ultra) that makes them that much better?

Comparing the M60 to the M80, I understand why the M80 is more expensive. Likewise, I understand why the M22's are more expensive than the M2's, etc. I just don't have a lot of experience with the differences in subs, since I only have ever owned the one.

Quote:

Peter,

The EP500 would compare to the PC Ultra if anything from the PC line from SVS.

So don't even consider the PCi line when comparing to the EP500, if you want a fare comparison, check out the PC Ultra.





Edited by PeterChenoweth (11/30/06 11:33 AM)
_________________________
M80v2 | VP150v2 | QS8v2
SVS Pci+ 20-39
Emotiva UMC-1 & LPA-1
M22ti + T-Amp, in the Office

Top
#152252 - 11/30/06 11:29 AM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: PeterChenoweth]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.

I wonder how the EP 500 would do in a comprison with the Hsu VTF 3 Ho ?
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#152253 - 11/30/06 11:39 AM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: PeterChenoweth]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8283
Loc: Tacoma
Hi Pete,

A couple of observations from someone who has heard neither model -

1. The tube subs seem to have a reputation for being somewhat less musical than box subs. Likewise, I think the large size of the overall form factor might surprise you. The cylinder sub design philosophy seems to center around an enclosure that is efficient both in production as well as footprint. They go low, but people I trust (including chesseroo) have commented that they don't seem quite as fast as comparably priced boxes.

2. The EP500 and EP600 have VERY sophisticated digital amps that allow them to work collaboratively with the driver instead of those two processes being simply sequential.

3. Driver engineering still matters or SVS would not offer three different price points. Axiom is an R&D company, so I have no doubt that the EP series drivers do what they are supposed to do.

All that being said, my opinion remains that the current pricing on the STF-3 makes it too good to pass up. That would be a very noticable upgrade to your current sub, and either of the QS models would be a noticable upgrade to your current surrounds. I know I'm in the minority here, but I don't think everybody will get the same amount of value by spending significantly more just to avoid upgradeitis. Not everybody has M80 envy.
_________________________
bibere usque ad hilaritatem

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#152254 - 11/30/06 11:40 AM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: Wid]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8283
Loc: Tacoma
Rick, I think that thing is terminally fugly.
_________________________
bibere usque ad hilaritatem

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#152255 - 11/30/06 11:46 AM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: tomtuttle]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.
Take the turbo off and it looks like every other black box. I like the way the turbo looks.

Quote:

All that being said, my opinion remains that the current pricing on the STF-3 makes it too good to pass up. That would be a very noticable upgrade to your current sub, and either of the QS models would be a noticable upgrade to your current surrounds. I know I'm in the minority here, but I don't think everybody will get the same amount of value by spending significantly more just to avoid upgradeitis. Not everybody has M80 envy.





I agree with Tom on this one, except for the last part


Edited by wid (11/30/06 12:06 PM)
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#152256 - 11/30/06 12:00 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: Wid]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17767
Loc: NoVA
Sorry, gotta agree with Tom here.
_________________________
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#152257 - 11/30/06 03:22 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: Ken.C]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16273
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
That HO looks like it's been beat with the ugly stick one too many times.




(that just sounds wrong, doesn't it?)
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#152258 - 11/30/06 04:42 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: PeterChenoweth]
JasonB Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/30/06
Posts: 105
Loc: St. Albert, AB
Tom seems to have covered the technical differences, and in a much better way that I could have. Another difference you may be concerned about it how efficient these subs are. The EP350 has a 200W amp, but it draws nearly 500W from the wall at max output (so its about 50% efficient). The EP500 on the other hand is about 90% efficient, so it should only draw about 550W from the wall at max output. The EP500 also has a dynamic power supply, so when little/no sound is coming out, there is very little power draw from the wall. Since I'm disabling the stand-by on one or the other, this is an issue for me since the EP350 will draw a lot more power then the EP500 when its sitting idle.

As far as sound goes, the EP350 works excellent with the rest of my setup. I haven't heard many fancy subs, but this is definately supperior to anything else I've heard. I just watched Star Wars II a couple days ago, and . It was shaking everything in my room with no signs of distortion at all. For music, its very accurate and clean. If you've ever heard "Dragonforce", their uber-fast double bass drum was still separated (if you want to hear a little from them, stop by www.pandora.com and put "dragonforce" into the search). It may have been blurring them together just a little bit, but this was amazingly small compared to my old crappy sub which just tied them all together into one solid rumble.

As for response, it seems to emphasize the lower bass to some degree, but its most likely due to my small and oddly shaped room. When I tested it, I found that it drops off fairly quickly below 28Hz. I didn't create an FR curve, but it sounds fairly consistent from ~28 up to and above the crossover. There is no sign that the crossover even occurs, it blends seamlessly.

As for stereo between the M22's and EP350, its works just as good as for surround music and movies. It sounds very realistic and accurate.

My reasons for upgrading:
1) Less heat/power with the stand-by disabled in the EP500 then with the EP350.
2) EP500 allows me to avoid upgraditis for a long time, until I break it.
3) I can't break it since the DSP limits the max output to the driver.
4) I don't know what size of room it will end up in when I move out, but it should fill it with bass no problem.
5) Those room adjustments would be nice to have.
6) It plays quite a bit lower and louder then the EP350
7) Every review and forum member who's commented on the two say that there is a huge improvement between the two. Its been explained in many ways, so I'd suggest reading some reviews on it rather then me trying to relay what they said.
_________________________
____________________________ M22 VP100 QS8 EP500 Yamaha HTR-5960

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#152259 - 11/30/06 04:54 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: JasonB]
PeterChenoweth Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 1349
Loc: Jacksonville, IL
Wow, good stuff guys. Special thanks to Tom and Jason for their detailed advice.

While the STF-3 is a great deal, I'm a little put-off by the fact that they don't appear to have a 30-day money back guarantee. The VTF's do, but there's no mention of it with the STF's. I'm not going to buy unheard speakers over the 'net without a return policy, no matter how well reviewed or cheap. That, and the fact that the HSU subs are made in China means I'd much rather support Axiom or SVS. But I digress....

I'm still on the fence about this, but I'm leaning more towards doing the Sub+Surrounds option, as my existing sub is the oldest item in my HT system and really ought to be replaced.

Thanks all!


Edited by PeterChenoweth (11/30/06 04:55 PM)
_________________________
M80v2 | VP150v2 | QS8v2
SVS Pci+ 20-39
Emotiva UMC-1 & LPA-1
M22ti + T-Amp, in the Office

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#152260 - 11/30/06 05:14 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: PeterChenoweth]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.
All of the Hsu products are covered by a 30 day risk free trail.

Being put off about "Made in China" is a legit reason, I guess. I hope your don't take you Axioms a part and discover " Made in China " on the drivers
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#152261 - 11/30/06 05:30 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: Wid]
PeterChenoweth Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 1349
Loc: Jacksonville, IL
I didn't see that on Hsu's site that they all have a 30 day warranty. I see it now on the Customer Service page, so I stand corrected. I was going on the fact that the VTF has the 30 day guarantee in big bold print, while the STF doesn't mention it. My mistake & appologies.

I realize that the components used by Axiom are made in China (what isn't these days?), but at least the cabinets and such are *assembeled* in Canada. A slightly lower percentage of my money is going to China. Still, my biggest complaint was the lack of 30-day policy, and I was wrong about that. I can't say that the STF-3 deal isn't tempting...

Quote:

All of the Hsu products are covered by a 30 day risk free trail.

Being put off about "Made in China" is a legit reason, I guess. I hope your don't take you Axioms a part and discover " Made in China " on the drivers





Edited by PeterChenoweth (11/30/06 05:37 PM)
_________________________
M80v2 | VP150v2 | QS8v2
SVS Pci+ 20-39
Emotiva UMC-1 & LPA-1
M22ti + T-Amp, in the Office

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#152262 - 11/30/06 06:35 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: PeterChenoweth]
JasonB Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/30/06
Posts: 105
Loc: St. Albert, AB
Well if you just can't decide, get one of each . Hide the EP500 somewhere in the room and put the STF-3 in the open. When the wife asks, you can say how good of a decision you made in going for the cheaper one . Go on about how great it sound as your pictures start falling off the walls. You might want to hide your credit card bill though...
_________________________
____________________________ M22 VP100 QS8 EP500 Yamaha HTR-5960

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#152263 - 11/30/06 07:12 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: JasonB]
Ray3 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 2841
Loc: Rochester, NY
Actually Jason, that's not a bad suggestion. Let's go ahead and add a little confusion for Pete.

A PAIR of STF-3s , if you have the space is less expensive than the EP500 and having the pair would eliminate peaks/nulls. A pair of SVS PCis would be even better.

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#152264 - 11/30/06 07:16 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: PeterChenoweth]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10875
Loc: Central NH
Quote:

Heck, my wife is telling me that I should just forgoe the usual jewelry and get her a pair of M80's.




Wow, I can't believe no one commented on this!

Is it inappropriate for me to mention that I'm in love with your wife?
_________________________
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::

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#152265 - 11/30/06 07:20 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: PeterChenoweth]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8283
Loc: Tacoma
Quote:

I'd much rather support Axiom or SVS




My brother-from-a-different-mother!

Peter, I'm sure you'll be happy with whatever you decide, and I do hope you're taking time to savor the decision making and anticipation process. I just wanted to interject that I perceive quite a bit of "upselling" in this hobby generally, and the law of diminishing returns remains in force. Technology is awesome, because things tend to cost about the same but keep getting better all the time. What a great time to be alive.

Ken, why did you say you were sorry to be compelled to agree with me?
_________________________
bibere usque ad hilaritatem

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#152266 - 11/30/06 07:23 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: MarkSJohnson]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.

I must have glossed right over that, what a lucky guy.
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#152267 - 11/30/06 07:27 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: tomtuttle]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17767
Loc: NoVA
Well, I'm sorry that you threatened to burn down my house and cut off my fing...ohcrap. You said not to tell! Please don't kill me!

Err....

The apology was to Wid. That thing is fugly.
_________________________
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#152268 - 11/30/06 07:46 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: Ken.C]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8283
Loc: Tacoma
I have been watching season 6 of the Sopranos.

We don't have HBO, so I've not seen it before the recent DVD release, which I eagerly anticipated after seeing the first five years in the same manner. We usually watch one episode a night. I find that, after about a week, my thinking process seems to be heavily laden with Jersey-accented F-bombs. Makes for an interesting exercise in self-control at the office.
_________________________
bibere usque ad hilaritatem

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#152269 - 11/30/06 08:21 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: Ray3]
JasonB Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/30/06
Posts: 105
Loc: St. Albert, AB
Quote:

Actually Jason, that's not a bad suggestion. Let's go ahead and add a little confusion for Pete.

A PAIR of STF-3s , if you have the space is less expensive than the EP500 and having the pair would eliminate peaks/nulls. A pair of SVS PCis would be even better.




I agree with you about eliminating the peaks/nulls, but you can get as many STF-3's as you want and it won't really extend the bass any lower. This would be where the EP500 would still come out ahead. Either way, I'm not sure if Peter's interested in getting 2 subs. You 'can' get better sound with 2 subs, but there's a lot more tweaking with placement to get it just right. If its done prefectly wrong, they'll cancel completely and he'll be scratching his head. Call up HSU and tell them "The driver is shaking like mad, but there's no sound coming out... me thinks it broken?" One flip of the phase switch and all his windows blow out . Reminds me of that commercial I saw awhile ago, Best Buy or Futureshop maybe??? Can't remember.

I guess 2 STF-3's is another setup to consider, but if I'm seeing things right, each STF-3 is $480 US + $53 US shipping. As far as I know the EP500 is regular $1200 US with free shipping, so it is pretty much the same if you go factory outlet for the 10% off. There's also more finish choices with the EP500, including the amazing High Gloss Cherry if you order for regular price. I'm not sure if Peter prefers the BBB (big black box) type or if he likes some color. Tough call, glad I already ordered my EP500 so I don't have to pick .
_________________________
____________________________ M22 VP100 QS8 EP500 Yamaha HTR-5960

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#152270 - 11/30/06 09:05 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: JasonB]
PeterChenoweth Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 1349
Loc: Jacksonville, IL
Quote:

Quote:

. . . Call up HSU and tell them "The driver is shaking like mad, but there's no sound coming out... me thinks it broken?" One flip of the phase switch and all his windows blow out . . . .




L O L

Yes, I'm pretty lucky in that my wife enjoys home theater as much as I do. In our annual discussion of who's getting what for whom for Christmas, she just brought up the fact that we could 'pool' our resources and just do a home theater upgrade.

I'll never forget the time we were at one of our favorite home theater stores that had a pair of Energy Veritas 2.4i's and she fell in love with them. She was seriously ready to just buy them - and we'd gone to the store just to kill some time.
_________________________
M80v2 | VP150v2 | QS8v2
SVS Pci+ 20-39
Emotiva UMC-1 & LPA-1
M22ti + T-Amp, in the Office

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#152271 - 11/30/06 11:10 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: PeterChenoweth]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10383
The point about two subs "eliminating peaks/nulls" shouldn't be taken too broadly(and maybe was intended in a narrow sense), although that configuration can have benefits in reducing some peaks. When two subs would be located opposite each other either at the middle of the front and back walls or the middle of the side walls they would minimize the primary length mode(side wall position)or width mode(front/back wall position)since those modes are at a minimum in the middle of the wall. While the length mode is at a maximum(front/back)and the width mode is at a maximum(side walls)in those positions, they're of opposite phase at the opposite walls and therefore tend to cancel each other. The net result is that the primary axial modes for both length and width would be minimized, although there are of course other modes that remain.

As to nulls, that's actually a disadvantage of two opposite subs at a certain frequency. Where the drivers are about a half wavelength apart and play the same sound a partial null results. For example, if subs on opposite sidewalls had their drivers about 12' apart, that would be a half wavelength at about 47Hz(560/12)and some cancellation would occur in that area.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#152272 - 11/30/06 11:25 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: PeterChenoweth]
JasonB Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/30/06
Posts: 105
Loc: St. Albert, AB
Your wife sounds awesome. Maybe you should go for the EP500 and when she falls in love with it, you'll get the go ahead to order another one. Then the first one's yours because she'll want her choice of color. Maybe she'll even go for the EP600 just to have a bigger one then you .
_________________________
____________________________ M22 VP100 QS8 EP500 Yamaha HTR-5960

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#152273 - 12/18/06 02:50 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M80? [Re: PeterChenoweth]
PeterChenoweth Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 1349
Loc: Jacksonville, IL
Just an update for anyone following this thread...

My wife and I both agree that the key problem with our home theater is a distinct lack of lower midrange warmth. A prime example might be in a Yo Yo Ma cello solo, where the mid and higher notes are fine (beautiful!), but the low notes sound weak and hollow. Contrary to most of the advice here, I really don't know how a better sub, such as the SVS or the EP's, would really help much because honestly we want full-range sound from our front mains. Some of our listening is done from SACD's, and they just seem to be engineered to be played on full-range speakers.

So with that in mind, we put together a collection of songs that illustrate what is missing at home, and hit several higher-end home theater shops to demo various speakers. Staying in the $1,000-$1,500 range, we listened to various speakers from B&W, Klipsch, Martin Logan, Deftech, Vienna Acoustics, and Dynaudio. We tried as best we could to listen paired with receivers similar to my own. We tried to be as objective as possible, or as is possible when weighing in on something as subjective as sound quality.

To make a long story short, the B&W 603 and 604 came out on top. B&W's definitely have a warmth and presence about them that our m22's are seriously lacking. However, this is where it gets complicated. I can't honestly compare $400 bookshelves to $1,000 - $1,400 floor standings. My wife really liked the sound of the 604's and probably would have walked out with a pair, except that both B&W stores were out of stock and couldn't promise anything for at least 2 weeks. I convinced her to wait and let me do further research on the M60/M80 before proceeding. So has anyone here been able to A/B the M60/M80 vs the B&W 603/604 speakers?
_________________________
M80v2 | VP150v2 | QS8v2
SVS Pci+ 20-39
Emotiva UMC-1 & LPA-1
M22ti + T-Amp, in the Office

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#152274 - 12/18/06 02:53 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: PeterChenoweth]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17767
Loc: NoVA
I think you may want to look at the M50s. I know what you are describing (although I usually find that it is mitigated by a good sub).

EDIT: Just looked at your original post. Get a good sub, and make sure your crossovers are appropriate (ie, 80 Hz).


Edited by kcarlile (12/18/06 02:54 PM)

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#152275 - 12/18/06 03:13 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: Ken.C]
PeterChenoweth Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 1349
Loc: Jacksonville, IL
Another vote for the sub option.... hmmm.

I just can't seem to wrap my ears around the fact that a better sub would improve the low mid-range. I have no doubts that a SVS, HSU, or EP500 sub would offer more power to the LFE, but I don't need that. My current sub already causes my wife's china to bounce around and the cat to run out of the room at about 1/2 volume. So a more musical and linear sub such as the EP500 would really help the lower midrange enough to give me that warmth? I mean, obviously there's a lot of experience here saying that is the answer. Hard to dispute that!

Of note, my sub is set to bypass and my receiver's X-over set at 80hz.


Edited by PeterChenoweth (12/18/06 03:15 PM)
_________________________
M80v2 | VP150v2 | QS8v2
SVS Pci+ 20-39
Emotiva UMC-1 & LPA-1
M22ti + T-Amp, in the Office

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#152276 - 12/18/06 03:26 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: PeterChenoweth]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.
I will recommend the M50s or M60s and the Hsu STF 3. The price of both these units would be around the price of the B&Ws. I have heard the 604s and was not to impressed. I would expect the combo mentioned above would be far superior to the 603s and 604s.

I wouldn't discount what a good sub can do for your music. Not to be mean but your Kenwood sub is not even in the same leauge as the other subs mentioned. I'm sure it can boom boom away but that's not all what a good sub is about.
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#152277 - 12/18/06 03:46 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: Wid]
PeterChenoweth Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 1349
Loc: Jacksonville, IL
Interesting that you weren't impressed with the 604's. That speaks well to what the M60's sound like, considering that I think the 604's sound pretty good! And no offense taken at saying the Kenwood isn't in the same league. I know it's not. That's a BIG part of my problem, I don't know what a GOOD sub sounds like, and I've never heard the M60's in person.

You are correct. An outlet pair of M60's and a STF-3 would be less than the 604's. I hadn't *really* thought about that. Awfully tempting...

Quote:

I will recommend the M50s or M60s and the Hsu STF 3. The price of both these units would be around the price of the B&Ws. I have heard the 604s and was not to impressed. I would expect the combo mentioned above would be far superior to the 603s and 604s.

I wouldn't discount what a good sub can do for your music. Not to be mean but your Kenwood sub is not even in the same leauge as the other subs mentioned. I'm sure it can boom boom away but that's not all what a good sub is about.





Edited by PeterChenoweth (12/18/06 03:48 PM)
_________________________
M80v2 | VP150v2 | QS8v2
SVS Pci+ 20-39
Emotiva UMC-1 & LPA-1
M22ti + T-Amp, in the Office

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#152278 - 12/18/06 03:53 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: PeterChenoweth]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17767
Loc: NoVA
So get the STF-3 first. See what you think of that, and then upgrade the mains if you still want to. Heh, who am I kidding...
_________________________
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#152279 - 12/18/06 05:09 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: PeterChenoweth]
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6250
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Peter, (hearsay alert) most often, I hear those who have heard both, say the M60s sound very much like the B&W 703s, at a much more attractive price. Having returned my M22s for the M60s due to a desire for more mid-upper bass (I was using a sub with both), I can tell you that I found the change satified my desire. YMMV.
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#152280 - 12/18/06 07:46 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: PeterChenoweth]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3903
Loc: Up yonder
Find a store that sells Paradigm Studio 100's. They sound closer to the M80's than any other speaker I've auditioned. The 703's are close, but lack the mid range and low end of the M80's. The Paradigms have a tad more low end than the 80's but they're pretty close on the mid range. neither is exact to the 80's, but close enough to give you a pretty good idea of what to expect.

Haven't heard the M60's.

Outlaw also makes a pretty nice, reasonably priced sub. I've got the LFM 1 and enjoy it. I think Outlaw has done some improvements to it over the past year too.
_________________________


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#152281 - 12/18/06 08:12 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: michael_d]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.
Quote:

Outlaw also makes a pretty nice, reasonably priced sub. I've got the LFM 1 and enjoy it. I think Outlaw has done some improvements to it over the past year too.






No doubt the Outlaw sub is a nice one; it is basically a STF 3. At the price difference, the Hsu being $100 cheaper, it's really no contest as to which is a better value.
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#152282 - 12/19/06 10:58 AM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: Wid]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3903
Loc: Up yonder
I didn't know that. One gripe I have with the Outlaw is the silly Plexiglas top. It looks cool until the first dusting. Then it just scratches.

A pair of sixties and the STF-3.....ya, I'm betting that he'd be grinning ear to ear.
_________________________


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#152283 - 12/19/06 11:52 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: Wid]
cactys Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/11/06
Posts: 1
Loc: Nebraska Panhandle
Quote:

Quote:

Outlaw also makes a pretty nice, reasonably priced sub. I've got the LFM 1 and enjoy it. I think Outlaw has done some improvements to it over the past year too.






No doubt the Outlaw sub is a nice one; it is basically a STF 3. At the price difference, the Hsu being $100 cheaper, it's really no contest as to which is a better value.




I agree, the Outlaw LFM-1 sub is reasonably priced and sounds great. I have one and I also have the LFM-2. The 325 watt LFM-1 is actually priced lower than the 300 watt STF-3 and discounted even more when combined with other Outlaw Audio products.
--------------------
Regards

Outlaw 990
Outlaw 7700
Outlaw LFM-1
Outlaw LFM-2
Axiom M80
Axiom VP150
Axiom QS8 x 4

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#152284 - 12/20/06 12:14 AM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: cactys]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.
I beg to differ sir, the outlaw sub is $579 while the Hsu STF 3 is discounted at $479. I also find that Outlaw charges more for shipping than does Hsu. The 50 watt difference in the amps means just about nothing if one does not know the sensitivity rating of the drivers.
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#152285 - 12/20/06 02:53 AM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: Wid]
spiffnme Offline
axiomite

Registered: 04/01/03
Posts: 5214
Loc: Los Angeles
I've actually heard them, and indeed the B&W 703's are very similar in sound to the M60ti's. If you get a chance, give the 703's a listen...though I still suggest the EP500. It'll give your music a much fuller sound. As much as a good sub adds to movies, I personally like what it does for music even more. I'm NOT a bass freak. So I really like my sub blended as seemlessly with the mains as possible and there's no denying what a good sub mated to mains can do for your music enjoyment. I must stress the GOOD in that statement though. A low end sub and boom and shake china while playing movies, but will make your music sound like poop.
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#152286 - 12/20/06 03:02 AM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: Ajax]
spiffnme Offline
axiomite

Registered: 04/01/03
Posts: 5214
Loc: Los Angeles
I've actually heard them, and indeed the B&W 703's are very similar in sound to the M60ti's. If you get a chance, give the 703's a listen...though I still suggest the EP500. It'll give your music a much fuller sound. As much as a good sub adds to movies, I personally like what it does for music even more. I'm NOT a bass freak. So I really like my sub blended as seemlessly with the mains as possible and there's no denying what a good sub mated to mains can do for your music enjoyment. I must stress the GOOD in that statement though. A low end sub and boom and shake china while playing movies, but will make your music sound like poop.
_________________________
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#152287 - 12/20/06 08:34 AM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: spiffnme]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16273
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
What's worth saying once...
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#152288 - 12/20/06 01:56 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: pmbuko]
PeterChenoweth Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 1349
Loc: Jacksonville, IL
I just want to offer another round of thanks to everyone that's contributed to this thread. Lots of really great advice here, and I appreciate all of it.

What you say, spiff, about a crummy sub making your music sound like poop, I think that's absolutely correct in my situation. My current sub shakes, rattles, and rolls the china out of the cabinet, but it can't replicate the fine detail of Yo Yo Ma's bow over his cello - and that's what I'm missing.

My mind is pretty much made up as to upgrading the sub first. Yes, my opinion has changed. It's becomming clear to me that the sub is currently the 'black sheep' in the herd. Whether I upgrade to M80's, B&W's, or some other brand, it doesn't matter. That ancient, boomy sub neds to be replaced with some fine offering from Axiom, SVS, or HSU. Why replace perfectly good m22's when it's the sub that's the crummy component? Right?

Perhaps it's time to just face the music and order an EP500.


Edited by PeterChenoweth (12/20/06 02:02 PM)
_________________________
M80v2 | VP150v2 | QS8v2
SVS Pci+ 20-39
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#152289 - 12/20/06 02:16 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: PeterChenoweth]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.
With whatever sub you end up getting, Axiom, Svs or Hsu I beleive you are in for an ear opening experiance. It's a good decision imo.
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#152290 - 12/20/06 03:54 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: PeterChenoweth]
Amie Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 1620
Soon after we got the first EP600 in our house, I cued up the soundtrack from Master and Commander. It was just astounding to me - as a cello player I thought that I was actually sitting in the chair next to YoYo Ma - not one detail was missing. I vote for an Axiom sub - it passes the bow-over-his-cello test!
_________________________
Amie Colquhoun
Axiom Audio

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#152291 - 12/20/06 04:58 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: Amie]
dllewel Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 06/20/05
Posts: 1189
Loc: Utah, USA
of course, she may be just a little biased

But that's okay, as so am I. The 500 (or 600) will definitely fill in the detail you would be missing. And then when you fire up the movie, it will provide the output to go along with it for the cannon fire.
_________________________
-Dave

M80s VP150 QS8s EP500s
ravenmanor.com/cinema/

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#152292 - 12/20/06 05:01 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: dllewel]
Hutzal Offline
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Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Hollywood. (Canadian @ <3)
*Resisting...temptation...to...order...wife...would...kill...me...*
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#152293 - 12/20/06 05:23 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: Hutzal]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Order and send it to my house, I can keep it here until you convince your wife how much you need it.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#152294 - 12/20/06 05:45 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: dllewel]
RickF Offline
axiomite

Registered: 02/26/05
Posts: 5210
Loc: Vero Beach, Florida
>>> But that's okay, as so am I. The 500 (or 600) will definitely fill in the detail you would be missing. And then when you fire up the movie, it will provide the output to go along with it for the cannon fire.

I am in total agreement with Dave.

And if you do decide upon either the 500 or 600 and are the proud owner of a typical home with interior walls made from sheet-rock you *may* want to consider having a handy supply of this...


...material, you'll need it from time to time.
_________________________
Rick
Our Room

smile

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#152295 - 12/20/06 05:48 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: RickF]
PeterChenoweth Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 1349
Loc: Jacksonville, IL
My home was built in 1910. What's this sheet-rock substance of which you speak?

I'm pretty certain that the EP500 might just destroy the whole house.


Edited by PeterChenoweth (12/20/06 05:49 PM)
_________________________
M80v2 | VP150v2 | QS8v2
SVS Pci+ 20-39
Emotiva UMC-1 & LPA-1
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#152296 - 12/20/06 05:59 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: jakewash]
Hutzal Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Hollywood. (Canadian @ <3)
Quote:

Order and send it to my house, I can keep it here until you convince your wife how much you need it.




Haha, just to show you how crazy I am, I am willing to get M60s over M22s just because I will be able to get a set of M3s instead of M2s for my centre channel and it will match the 6.5" woofers on the M60s...Even though the room will be CRAMPED. It takes a special woman to love guys like us. (don't go all self righteous on me now!)


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#152297 - 12/20/06 07:16 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: Hutzal]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17767
Loc: NoVA
Actually, you might want to consider getting M2s instead of M3s, as it's that 5.25" midwoofer that seems to make the most difference in Axiom speakers.
_________________________
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#152298 - 12/20/06 09:02 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: Hutzal]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
I think you may want to stick with the M2's as the M60's are said to still have the same sound as the M22's...... or go dual VP 150's as has been shown on the forum looks cool.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#152299 - 12/20/06 10:16 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: Hutzal]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10383
Yes Robb, as Ken and Jason indicate, there's no special matching that would be going on with the M60s and M3s. The 6 1/2" woofers in the M60s cover below about 200Hz; the 5 1/4" midrange takes over above that, so in the important midrange the M3 would be using the different 6 1/2" driver. M22/M2, M60/M22, etc. are better matches.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#152300 - 12/21/06 11:26 AM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: JohnK]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3903
Loc: Up yonder
That might be true on paper and in theory, but I'm not so sure anymore. I experimented a little and put the M3's between the M80's and I preferred them over the M22's. I thought they matched better. I've since put the M22's back as a center because they're just too big to mount on my wall as back surrounds where the M3's normally reside. I may end up using the M22's for another room and move the M3's back as a center channel.
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#152301 - 12/21/06 11:57 AM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: michael_d]
Hutzal Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Hollywood. (Canadian @ <3)
[>>I experimented a little and put the M3's between the M80's and I preferred them over the M22's.

What part did you like about them compared to the M22 centres?

When the time comes, I will most likely order M22s with M3 centres wired in parrallel. I am going to be building a studio as well downstairs and want to be able to test both the M3 and the M22 in the studio to see which I like better. Also, the M3s are easily sourced by themselves If I decide to go another route for a centre channel some day.

The reason I don't want to go with M2 centres is simply because I would rather have M3s to put elsewhere in my house when the time comes than M2's.

Screw the Timber and woofer matching, I am probably going to use the M3s as centres in parallel, I suspect I will like the dialog out of the M3s better than the M2s for some odd reason.
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#152302 - 12/21/06 02:25 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: Hutzal]
bugbitten Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/06/05
Posts: 2339
Loc: Madisonville, KY
Quote:

Screw the Timber and woofer matching, I am probably going to use the M3s as centres in parallel, I suspect I will like the dialog out of the M3s better than the M2s for some odd reason.




I do!

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#152303 - 12/21/06 08:54 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: Hutzal]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Quote:

Screw the Timber and woofer matching, I am probably going to use the M3s as centres in parallel, I suspect I will like the dialog out of the M3s better than the M2s for some odd reason.





It may give you that extra little something in dialogue that I get with running my system in large mode but yours could still be in small, hmmmmmmm.......
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#152304 - 12/21/06 09:36 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: Hutzal]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3903
Loc: Up yonder
Robb,

Not sure how to describe a preference that may be helpful to anyone. If I had to come up with a description, I suppose the M3's just seam to have more presence than the 22's. Plus, when I cycle a test tone from any receiver I've had so far, the 22's are higher in pitch than the M80's. The M3's match fine. Maybe this has tainted my thinking??
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#152305 - 12/22/06 03:27 PM Re: Replace old sub or upgrade from M22's to M60/M [Re: michael_d]
Hutzal Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Hollywood. (Canadian @ <3)
For strictly vocal singing and dialog in a 5.1 setup, I think the M3s will do it for me. I keep bouncing back and forth between the M2s and the M3s....when in reality I probably couldn't really hear the difference when crossed over at 80hz.

I'll most likely end up ordering the M3s to see how I like them as a centres matched with the M22s as mains. I can always send them back, and the main reason for my doing so is that the M3s can hold their own in a 2 channel setup whereas the M2s can't if I decide to re-source them.

Thanks for the opinions, we'll see what transpires!
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#152306 - 12/27/06 02:37 PM Deed is done! [Re: Hutzal]
PeterChenoweth Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 1349
Loc: Jacksonville, IL
To get back on my original topic, I finally bit the bullet and ordered a new sub. An SVS PCi+ 20-39 is on its way. I know, I know - I'm going to get flak for not getting an EP500. I'm sorry.

I'll defend myself by saying that I've wanted an SVS sub for years, and $800 for the SVS is already bending the budget a bit compared to the $1,300 for the EP500 (believe me, I've had a $1,0xx outlet EP500 sitting in my cart for weeks....). Besides, that $500 difference now goes in the "I need M80's" fund.

A big thank-you to everyone that has steered me towards the sub upgrade route. I look forward to joining the 'I have a real subwofer' group.


Edited by PeterChenoweth (12/27/06 02:39 PM)
_________________________
M80v2 | VP150v2 | QS8v2
SVS Pci+ 20-39
Emotiva UMC-1 & LPA-1
M22ti + T-Amp, in the Office

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#152307 - 12/27/06 04:46 PM Re: Deed is done! [Re: PeterChenoweth]
dllewel Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 06/20/05
Posts: 1189
Loc: Utah, USA
Quote:

...compared to the $1,300 for the EP500 (believe me, I've had a $1,0xx outlet EP500 sitting in my cart for weeks




I'm sure you will be happy with your choice, but when I saw your $1300 number I had to check that the EP500 price didn't go up. It's only $1200- but maybe you had some sort of custom finish?
_________________________
-Dave

M80s VP150 QS8s EP500s
ravenmanor.com/cinema/

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#152308 - 12/27/06 05:37 PM Re: Deed is done! [Re: dllewel]
PeterChenoweth Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 1349
Loc: Jacksonville, IL
No, no, it's still $1,200. I just mis-typed. (I have M80's on the brain - that's what I was thinking of.)


Edited by PeterChenoweth (12/27/06 05:38 PM)
_________________________
M80v2 | VP150v2 | QS8v2
SVS Pci+ 20-39
Emotiva UMC-1 & LPA-1
M22ti + T-Amp, in the Office

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#152309 - 12/27/06 05:39 PM Re: Deed is done! [Re: PeterChenoweth]
dllewel Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 06/20/05
Posts: 1189
Loc: Utah, USA
I know what you mean, it's tough to keep this hobby out of your brain once you are hooked.
_________________________
-Dave

M80s VP150 QS8s EP500s
ravenmanor.com/cinema/

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#152310 - 01/02/07 09:51 AM Re: Deed is done! [Re: PeterChenoweth]
Hutzal Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Hollywood. (Canadian @ <3)
>>To get back on my original topic, I finally bit the bullet and ordered a new sub. An SVS PCi+ 20-39 is on its way. I know, I know - I'm going to get flak for not getting an EP500.

Good thing you live in the States, the SVS PC+ 20-39 is practically the same price as the EP500 factory outlet in Canada if you factor in the 5% off for ordering 5 items at once and add the shipping cost to the EP500. Makes my decision alot easier to get the EP500.
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#152311 - 01/02/07 11:54 AM Re: Deed is done! [Re: Hutzal]
dllewel Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 06/20/05
Posts: 1189
Loc: Utah, USA
Quote:

and add the shipping cost to the EP500.




Did you mean SVS? Seems like you did from the point in your post.
_________________________
-Dave

M80s VP150 QS8s EP500s
ravenmanor.com/cinema/

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#152312 - 01/02/07 12:03 PM Re: Deed is done! [Re: dllewel]
Hutzal Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Hollywood. (Canadian @ <3)
Quote:

Quote:

and add the shipping cost to the EP500.




Did you mean SVS? Seems like you did from the point in your post.




Yes I did mean the SVS...I DID just get back from Holidays you know!
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#152313 - 01/02/07 12:43 PM Re: Deed is done! [Re: Hutzal]
dllewel Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 06/20/05
Posts: 1189
Loc: Utah, USA
No problem Rob.

Sounds like you had a good holiday
_________________________
-Dave

M80s VP150 QS8s EP500s
ravenmanor.com/cinema/

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#152314 - 01/03/07 10:01 AM Re: Deed is done! [Re: PeterChenoweth]
PeterChenoweth Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 1349
Loc: Jacksonville, IL
Received the PCi+ 20-39 yesterday. Holy freakin' cow. I can't believe this thing. Thank you to EVERYONE that said to dump that old Kenwood sub. My entire system has been transformed. Music has come alive - so much fuller and more pleasant to listen to. Those afore-mentioned Yo Yo Ma solo's sound like they should. The few minutes of movies my wife and I watched were absolutely incredible. Jaw dropping. No rattles or booms, just accurate power. I could babble on and on, but I won't (this isn't an SVS forum, after all )

Seriously. Thank you to all that told me to get a better sub. Absolutely the right decision.
_________________________
M80v2 | VP150v2 | QS8v2
SVS Pci+ 20-39
Emotiva UMC-1 & LPA-1
M22ti + T-Amp, in the Office

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#152315 - 01/03/07 10:15 AM Re: Deed is done! [Re: PeterChenoweth]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16273
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
Congrats! SVS makes great subs. Have you thrown Darla at the sub yet?
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#152316 - 01/03/07 10:21 AM Re: Deed is done! [Re: pmbuko]
Hutzal Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Hollywood. (Canadian @ <3)
I am really happy that you are pleased with your sub.

This re-inforces my decision to get M22s, You say your system is ALOT different and better sounding, I doubt the M60s would have fixed your system like getting a better sub did.

Long live the M22s!
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#152317 - 01/03/07 10:22 AM Re: Deed is done! [Re: pmbuko]
PeterChenoweth Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 1349
Loc: Jacksonville, IL
Quote:

Congrats! SVS makes great subs. Have you thrown Darla at the sub yet?




The infamous tank-tap scene, right? No, unfortunately I don't own that one. We like the movie though, so this may be an excuse to buy it.

My wife and I did demo a few things.

Several scenes from LOTR. Sounded so good it brought tears to our eyes. The scene where Gandalf 'dies', several battles, various Ring Wraiths, etc. Absolutely astounding.

Opening naval battle in 'Master and Commander: the Far Side of the World'. I thought my house was under attack. Incredible, stunning. When the 18 pounders fire on the Acheron, there is quite a bit more urgency when the captain orders his crew to take cover!


Edited by PeterChenoweth (01/03/07 10:27 AM)
_________________________
M80v2 | VP150v2 | QS8v2
SVS Pci+ 20-39
Emotiva UMC-1 & LPA-1
M22ti + T-Amp, in the Office

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#152318 - 01/03/07 10:34 AM Re: Deed is done! [Re: Hutzal]
PeterChenoweth Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 1349
Loc: Jacksonville, IL
Indeed. We were comparing full-range $1k+ floor standing speakers to the m22's. That left something to be desired in terms of warmth and fullness to the sound. The SVS (and I'm 100% sure the EP500 or the HSU's would have too) completely fixed that problem. Music sounds like it should: rich, full, energetic, accurate, and smooth.

Quote:

I am really happy that you are pleased with your sub.

This re-inforces my decision to get M22s, You say your system is ALOT different and better sounding, I doubt the M60s would have fixed your system like getting a better sub did.

Long live the M22s!



_________________________
M80v2 | VP150v2 | QS8v2
SVS Pci+ 20-39
Emotiva UMC-1 & LPA-1
M22ti + T-Amp, in the Office

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#152319 - 01/03/07 10:35 AM Re: Deed is done! [Re: PeterChenoweth]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17767
Loc: NoVA
I'd like to take this moment to say, "I told you so."

I told you so.



Congrats on the new hardware and the new sound!
_________________________
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#152320 - 01/03/07 10:36 AM Re: Deed is done! [Re: PeterChenoweth]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.
Congrats on your new sub. It sure is a new experiance finding out what real bass sounds like . Enjoy.
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#152321 - 01/03/07 12:52 PM Re: Deed is done! [Re: PeterChenoweth]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8283
Loc: Tacoma
Something's missing here...

Where's that part where you say "I was surprised how big it is"?

We're gonna need pictures to understand where you hid that thing.

So glad to hear you're pleased! I felt the same way when I added the PB12-ISD to my system.
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#152322 - 01/03/07 01:04 PM Re: Deed is done! [Re: tomtuttle]
PeterChenoweth Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 1349
Loc: Jacksonville, IL
I think I may have uttered, 'wow', when I first unpacked it.

I knew that it would be pretty big. I had sufficiently warned my wife that the new sub would basically look like we had a short, carpeted hot water heater in the corner of our den.

I had to borrow a buddy's SUV to get the thing home from the UPS depot (signature required, my wife and I both work, yadda, yadda yadda). Wouldn't fit in the trunk/back seat of either of our cars.

I had to go home for lunch just to listen to more music!
_________________________
M80v2 | VP150v2 | QS8v2
SVS Pci+ 20-39
Emotiva UMC-1 & LPA-1
M22ti + T-Amp, in the Office

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#152323 - 01/03/07 09:54 PM Re: Deed is done! [Re: tomtuttle]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16273
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
If you think it's big now, wait till it gets excited.
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#152324 - 01/03/07 11:53 PM Re: Deed is done! [Re: PeterChenoweth]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10383
Very good, Peter C. Yes, I understand what you mean; my new EP500 really makes a terrific combination with my M22s.

Peter B., that might happen, but I understand that SVS provides a very big box, so the situation that this eBay box seller ran into won't likely come about.
_________________________
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Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#152325 - 01/04/07 12:52 AM Re: Deed is done! [Re: JohnK]
St_PatGuy Offline
axiomite

Registered: 03/07/05
Posts: 7400
Loc: Glendale, Arizona
Good one, John.
_________________________
***********
"Nothin' up my sleeve. . ." --Bullwinkle J. Moose

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#152326 - 01/04/07 10:26 AM Re: Deed is done! [Re: JohnK]
bugbitten Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/06/05
Posts: 2339
Loc: Madisonville, KY
lol

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#152327 - 01/04/07 10:45 AM Re: Deed is done! [Re: bugbitten]
sidvicious02 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 05/09/03
Posts: 973
Loc: Brandon, Manitoba
That's hillarious, great find, John.
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#152328 - 01/11/07 05:49 PM Re: EP350 vs. SVS ?? [Re: PeterChenoweth]
ctown Offline
devotee

Registered: 01/06/07
Posts: 364
Loc: Calgary, AB
A bit of a step back from the EP500, but anybody know how the EP350 compares to either the SVS 20-39Pci or PB12-NSD??

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#152329 - 01/11/07 05:59 PM Re: EP350 vs. SVS ?? [Re: ctown]
HomeDad Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 3301
Loc: Central,California
Imo from experience with the EP350 and everything I have read, for the money there are better bargains from HSU and SVS in that price range. Now the EP500 and the EP600 at any price range are hard to beat.
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#152330 - 01/11/07 07:05 PM Re: EP350 vs. SVS ?? [Re: HomeDad]
Hutzal Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Hollywood. (Canadian @ <3)
Quote:

Imo from experience with the EP350 and everything I have read, for the money there are better bargains from HSU and SVS in that price range. Now the EP500 and the EP600 at any price range are hard to beat.




This is what I have heard as well.

I would assume that Axiom is hard at work building a sub that can compete with the performance of $500-600 subs that HSU and SVS are putting out.

IMHO, this is the one thing that Axiom is missing, a mid-budget sub, $500-$600 is the average price most average people are willing to spend for a sub (from what I have seen)
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#152331 - 01/11/07 07:32 PM Re: EP350 vs. SVS ?? [Re: Hutzal]
ctown Offline
devotee

Registered: 01/06/07
Posts: 364
Loc: Calgary, AB
The PB12-NSD from SVS is $779.00 CAD, where the EP350 from the outlet will be $675.00 CAD. I'm just wondering if the SVS is truly a better sub for the extra $100.

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#152332 - 01/11/07 08:07 PM Re: EP350 vs. SVS ?? [Re: ctown]
HomeDad Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 3301
Loc: Central,California
Wow, the SVS PB12-NSD is only 599.00 US, and Imo makes it a better bargain here. Now there are also some very good subs from HSU in that range.
_________________________
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.

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#152333 - 01/11/07 08:47 PM Re: EP350 vs. SVS ?? [Re: ctown]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Here is the Canadian distributor for HSU. Not much better pricing, seems the Axiom subs really are a bargain up here.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
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My HT

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#152334 - 01/11/07 08:55 PM Re: EP350 vs. SVS ?? [Re: jakewash]
HomeDad Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 3301
Loc: Central,California
The HSU's can be bought online from the HSU website and shipped to Canada, not sure what SVS's policy is.
_________________________
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#152335 - 01/12/07 09:52 AM Re: EP350 vs. SVS ?? [Re: ctown]
Hutzal Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Hollywood. (Canadian @ <3)
Quote:

The PB12-NSD from SVS is $779.00 CAD, where the EP350 from the outlet will be $675.00 CAD. I'm just wondering if the SVS is truly a better sub for the extra $100.




I live in calgary as well (not that it matters much) but I went through the exact thing you are going through now. I must have "almost" bought at least 4 different subs not knowing which to go with. PB-10, PB-12, PCi 20-39, PC+ 20-30...

I finally decided I wanted quality sound and deep bass. I wanted something musical that would compliment my M22s. So I broke it down to the SVS PC+ 20-39 and the EP500. The EP500 was $40 more than the SVS when ordering from the factory outlet, and has scored rave reviews all over the internet for being a fantastic sub with advanced digital attributes.

It was then that I decided that getting a $1200 sub is worth it, because I will be getting deep clean musical bass down to 18hz.

A year from now, I will not regret it, however if I went with a lower end sub, I might have.

Just my 2 cents
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#152336 - 01/12/07 10:08 AM Re: EP350 vs. SVS ?? [Re: Hutzal]
PeterChenoweth Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 1349
Loc: Jacksonville, IL
Part of the problem is that they're all really good subs. You can't really make a wrong decision. There is obviously (and rightfully so) a slight bias towards the EP500/600 around here. They are, by many reviews, amazing subs.

I narrowed my sub choices down to a VTF-3, PCi+20-39, or an outlet EP500. I've had various subs in shopping carts for the past year, and finally bit the bullet and went with SVS. I went with them because of price and because I'd just wanted an SVS for so long. Believe me, I was || <-this close to buying an EP500. I don't regret it one bit, and I'm sure I'd be just as thrilled if I had bought an EP500.

One thing to keep in mind is that SVS just bumped the price up by $100 on the PCI+ line. When I bought my 20-39+ two weeks ago, it was $799. Now it's $899. That's basically $100 difference from an outlet EP500, considering that shipping on the PCI+ is about $30.

Regardless, I am now a firm believer that a good sub makes all the difference in the world.


Edited by PeterChenoweth (01/12/07 10:24 AM)
_________________________
M80v2 | VP150v2 | QS8v2
SVS Pci+ 20-39
Emotiva UMC-1 & LPA-1
M22ti + T-Amp, in the Office

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#152337 - 01/12/07 10:21 AM Re: EP350 vs. SVS ?? [Re: Hutzal]
ctown Offline
devotee

Registered: 01/06/07
Posts: 364
Loc: Calgary, AB
Hutzal, I understand your logic. The only thing is its not consistent with my priorities right now. I'm a best bang for the buck kind of guy. I chose the pioneer 1015 amp over the Denon 3805 to save some $$ and still have great performance. I then put that savings into my kids education, home improvement, hockey equip for my son, etc. I should have done this before we had kids
That being said, I'll probably look at something like the HSU Stf-3 on sale for 20% off in the US and bank the extra $600. I may regret it and upgrade later or I may find it adequate.

BTW, I auditioned some speakers at Jakewash's place yesterday and I really thought the M22's were clean and transparent sounding. The bass was present but not overpowering, not bright as some critics say. I think I will start building my HT system around a pair of them and some QS8's.

thanks for the feedback.

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#152338 - 01/12/07 11:18 AM Re: EP350 vs. SVS ?? [Re: ctown]
Hutzal Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Hollywood. (Canadian @ <3)
>>Hutzal, I understand your logic. The only thing is its not consistent with my priorities right now. I'm a best bang for the buck kind of guy.>>

I would be the exact same way if I had kids as well. I told my wife (now married for a year and 2 months) that I wanted ALL my HT gear before we have kids so that I can spend the money where it is needed later on in life. Cudos to you for being a responsible parent!

>>That being said, I'll probably look at something like the HSU Stf-3 on sale for 20% off in the US and bank the extra $600. I may regret it and upgrade later or I may find it adequate.>>

I am sure you will be more than happy with the HSU STF-3. The problem living in Canada is there aren't as good as prices as the americans get with electronics, hence why in the end I chose to go with the EP500...had I lived in the states I probably would have opted for the PC+ 20-39.

>>BTW, I auditioned some speakers at Jakewash's place yesterday and I really thought the M22's were clean and transparent sounding.>>

Sheesh! Seems like everyone and his dog has heard his system, I REALLY should get over there just to go I think I'll be over there this month to check it out, he has made it clear that his doors are open for auditions and listening sessions

>>The bass was present but not overpowering, not bright as some critics say. I think I will start building my HT system around a pair of them and some QS8's.>>

Thats great to hear, as I ordered the M22s as well. Too many reviews state Anemic bass, but if the balance is good, then that is what i call a well designed speaker.

I am sure you'll love your system!
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#152339 - 01/12/07 02:01 PM Re: EP350 vs. SVS ?? [Re: jakewash]
ctown Offline
devotee

Registered: 01/06/07
Posts: 364
Loc: Calgary, AB
The HSU site in the US is showing 20% off for the STF-2 and STF-3. With the shipping, customs and tax it may still be less expensive than buying an STF-3 in Canada.

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#152340 - 01/12/07 03:14 PM Re: EP350 vs. SVS ?? [Re: ctown]
Hutzal Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Hollywood. (Canadian @ <3)
ctown,

Here is a short example of what happens when you buy stuff from the states:

"Our example is a Projector.

Say the projector is: $1,699 USD
Shipping cost to BC is $ 114 USD

Your first expense is Visa / MasterCard charge you an additional 2.5 Percent on your USD to Canadian conversion rate, referred to as a Service fee. ( CIBC fees )

Today August 8, 2006 the current visa rate from CIBC Visa is 1.1398

USD to Canadian conversion. Multiply by 1.1398
So far your Canadian Dollar total for the projector is: $2,066.45

Unfortunately, The Government has not got their share yet, Local taxes.

On this $2,066.45 purchase you are paying an additional 13% Federal and Provincial tax, this adds $268.64

Running total is now $2,335.09

Still more you are asking ? Yes. Brokerage charges and Duties, we have provided links to UPS rates for your reference.

UPS and all other Brokers have a Entry Prep Fee Projector image
Entry Prep Fee on this Order is 66.70 + gst Total of $70.70
Running total is now $2,405.79
Next is the Disbursement Fees
Disbursement Fees in this case are 2.7 percent,
a total of taxes and duties paid Total $11.44
Additionally, Duties will be applied per the regulated amount by Canada Customs, this typically ranges 7.5 percent on Projector related equipment.

Add $154.95 on this shipment for Duties

Your grand total is 2405.79+ 154.95 + 11.44 = $2,572.18CDN

Your cost on this purchase from us was $2,328.82 a SAVINGS of $242.36 !
"

However in our case we would only be charged 6% GST, not 13%.
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#152341 - 01/12/07 06:09 PM Re: EP350 vs. SVS ?? [Re: Hutzal]
ctown Offline
devotee

Registered: 01/06/07
Posts: 364
Loc: Calgary, AB
Thanks, I wasnt sure what duty applied or if it was a free trade product. I know there are different schedules of duties based on the country of manufacture.

I'm thinking a $479 sub becomes approx $550 with exchange and whatever duties on it are extra.

If I buy from the Canadian site, its $799, again GST and Shipping on top of that. I was hoping an EP350 would be similar as at least you can get that for $675 plus tax delivered from the outlet. The concensus seems to be the SVS or HSU offerings are better unless I look at EP500.

Oh well, have to mull this one over some more. Thanks for the info.

In both cases I have to pay GST and shipping, although shipping from the US will be more.

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#152342 - 01/12/07 06:14 PM Re: EP350 vs. SVS ?? [Re: ctown]
Hutzal Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Hollywood. (Canadian @ <3)
How big is your room?
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#152343 - 01/12/07 06:41 PM Re: EP350 vs. SVS ?? [Re: Hutzal]
ctown Offline
devotee

Registered: 01/06/07
Posts: 364
Loc: Calgary, AB
Quote:

How big is your room?




16x20x8'.......2500 cu. ft, with an open side that goes further down to the rest of the rec room.

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#152344 - 01/12/07 07:17 PM Re: EP350 vs. SVS ?? [Re: Hutzal]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Quote:

>>
Sheesh! Seems like everyone and his dog has heard his system, I REALLY should get over there just to go I think I'll be over there this month to check it out, he has made it clear that his doors are open for auditions and listening sessions





I am still waiting.......I even have my SPL meter now. Just waiting to get the Avia setup disc....
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Jason
-----------------
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My HT

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#152345 - 01/13/07 04:10 PM Re: EP350 vs. SVS ?? [Re: Hutzal]
ctown Offline
devotee

Registered: 01/06/07
Posts: 364
Loc: Calgary, AB
Think I have it all figured out now. My neighbour has a PO box in Montana and can get it shipped there and bring it up when he is across.

Now I guess I'll just need to decide if I should go STF-3 or VTF2-MK-III.


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#152346 - 01/13/07 04:23 PM Re: EP350 vs. SVS ?? [Re: ctown]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17767
Loc: NoVA
Usually shippers (eg FedEx or UPS) will not ship to PO Boxes, so you may be in trouble there.
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I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#152347 - 01/13/07 04:39 PM Re: EP350 vs. SVS ?? [Re: Ken.C]
HomeDad Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 3301
Loc: Central,California
Quote:

Usually shippers (eg FedEx or UPS) will not ship to PO Boxes, so you may be in trouble there.



If it is a USPS PO box UPS will not go there, they will deliver to certain Mailbox Ect. type places.
I believe DHL-Airborne has an agreement with the USPS where they will deliver to the Post Office.

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#152348 - 01/13/07 05:50 PM Re: EP350 vs. SVS ?? [Re: ctown]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
I am also very sure that, for security reasons, they will not ship to P.O boxes anymore. I think you need to find another answer. Maybe a better deal if you order 2....I could use a new one....
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#152349 - 01/15/07 04:45 PM Re: EP350 vs. SVS ?? [Re: jakewash]
paradoiley Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 09/14/06
Posts: 16
Loc: Brampton, ON, Canada
If you can get them to ship USPS instead of UPS, the brokerage fees are much lower. You may have to pay more for shipping though, and the vendor may not offer the option.

I think last year it was a flat $8, which you pay to Canada Post along with applicable taxes.
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M22s VP100 QS8s EP500 Yamaha RX-V659

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#152350 - 01/15/07 07:24 PM Re: EP350 vs. SVS ?? [Re: paradoiley]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16273
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
USPS won't typically ship things over 70 pounds (see section 281.3). And the limit to Canada, specifically, is 66 pounds (scroll down to second table).
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#152351 - 01/15/07 07:46 PM Re: EP350 vs. SVS ?? [Re: pmbuko]
ctown Offline
devotee

Registered: 01/06/07
Posts: 364
Loc: Calgary, AB
Thanks for the info. I have a few options.
Ship to Canada and pay the G some taxes.
Buy locally or from online retailer in Canada if price is acceptable.
Get my neighbour to pickup when they are in Montana from a MBE that I have it shipped to.
or, have it shipped to Eureka Montana Mail Box Etc. and pick up. I travel 30 min north of there every 6 weeks for work.

Any way, I can get something from SVS or HSU without paying the excessive shipping if I want to.

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#152352 - 01/15/07 08:35 PM Re: EP350 vs. SVS ?? [Re: ctown]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
I know, do a sub shoot out and buy all 3, have a good long listen to all of them. Write up a good review for the rest of us and then ship back the ones you don't like. This way you know you will be getting the one that works best for you. I know it doesn't solve the shipping issue, but it would let you rest easier at night knowing it was the right choice.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#152353 - 01/18/07 06:56 PM Re: EP350 vs. SVS ?? [Re: jakewash]
ctown Offline
devotee

Registered: 01/06/07
Posts: 364
Loc: Calgary, AB
Jakewash, if you want to see an HSU sub in Calgary, there is a place on 12ave and 14st SW called the Audio Room that sells them.

The guy there is old school audiophile and has some nice gear and has a STF-1 on the floor and sells a lot of the VTF2.2

He was a bit hard to understand (speech is slurred, probably by a stroke) but can order the VTF2.2 for $699. He also has some nice Velodyne stuff but much more expensive.

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