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#160356 - 03/02/07 12:55 AM Re: A Projector - should I? [Re: PeterChenoweth]
bridgman Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 5373
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
If the room really has as much window area as your sketches indicate (and if the view outside is nice) I would stay with the TV despite everything I have said so far

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#160357 - 03/02/07 09:31 AM Re: A Projector - should I? [Re: bridgman]
PeterChenoweth Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 1349
Loc: Jacksonville, IL
That is a very accurate representation of my room. The view isn't all that great out thet back - just my neighbor's back yard. We have fairly heavy (but somewhat translucent) curtains over all of the windows right now.

Thanks to everyone for suggesting those websites. The tools and reviews are quite useful. I'm finding that with my room size and that projector, the calculators suggest a room with 2-4 footcandles of illumination, which is pretty dark. During the morning and early afternoon that room is in direct sunlight - and I suspect that this projector would be pretty washed out. Bad for early NFL games.

Right now I'm leaning more and more against the projector route. Though if eCost drops the price another $100 I might not be able to resist....
_________________________
M80v2 | VP150v2 | QS8v2
SVS Pci+ 20-39
Emotiva UMC-1 & LPA-1
M22ti + T-Amp, in the Office

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#160358 - 03/02/07 10:18 AM Re: A Projector - should I? [Re: PeterChenoweth]
dennisdxl32 Offline
buff

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 46
Loc: Dallas, TX
Slightly off-topic, but I'd go to resellerratings.com and read a little bit about eCost. 'Tis not pretty. I was looking into buying something from them recently, but the reviews scared me away.

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#160359 - 03/02/07 10:23 AM Re: A Projector - should I? [Re: dennisdxl32]
PeterChenoweth Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 1349
Loc: Jacksonville, IL
Well, I've not ever had any problems with eCost. I've purchased more than a dozen things from them over the past couple of years and have never had any problems.

Quote:

Slightly off-topic, but I'd go to resellerratings.com and read a little bit about eCost. 'Tis not pretty. I was looking into buying something from them recently, but the reviews scared me away.



_________________________
M80v2 | VP150v2 | QS8v2
SVS Pci+ 20-39
Emotiva UMC-1 & LPA-1
M22ti + T-Amp, in the Office

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#160360 - 03/02/07 11:46 AM Re: A Projector - should I? [Re: tomtuttle]
Krich Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/19/07
Posts: 93
Loc: Duvall, WA
Quote:

Ken, my Evergreen-State-Brother!

You snowed-in today? Not me.





Nope. I'm in Denver on business. The wife and kids had the day off though.
_________________________
Ken. VaSSallo Series M60v2, VP100v2, QS8v2 SVS SB12-Plus

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#160361 - 03/02/07 01:33 PM Re: A Projector - should I? [Re: PeterChenoweth]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3903
Loc: Up yonder
I’m having trouble opening the link, so I have no idea what projector you’re looking at Peter.

Regardless of the “deal”, I can share some thoughts about this choice you’re contemplating.

Projectors are not as simple as TV’s. No way and if anyone tries to tell you differently, they are full of crap. But they are not an onerously troublesome device that will give you hours of grief either. With projectors you have to contend with ambient light, mounting locations, screen size, zoom, contrast, brightness, type of screen, bulbs, fans, user interface, etc. All of these things can be easily learned and dealt with, just don’t walk into this blind.

The ideal situation is a completely light controlled room because you are sending a beam of light threw the air to a reflective surface (screen) that you get the pleasure of looking at. But, with the right projector and screen, you can get away with using a projector in an area WITH ambient light. You will have to spec out a projector with good lumens and also get yourself a good screen with a + gain. Now depending on the contrast ratio of the projector, you may be able to get away with a standard white screen with a + gain, but typically, you will want to go with a silver or grey screen to bring out the colors. These high contrast + gain screens get expensive. You can also try your hand at a DIY screen, and good luck with that. I did and wasn’t happy with the results.

One thing you need to be aware of is advertised ratings and real world test results. Do not believe what your read. If the projector you are looking at is rated at 10,000/1 contrast ratio, it’s probably more like 4,000/1. If it has a lumens rating of 1000, it’s probably more like 300. Do not, really – do not believe these ratings. Try to find a review where they reviewer tests this to a recognized standard. The reason this is so important is that you need to know real contrast and lumens so that you can decide which screen you can get away with. The two work hand in hand.

There are other things to consider as well, like where you will mount the projector. If it’s 8’ away, you need to find a short throw projector. Not all projectors can be mounted that close to the screen without throwing up huge image. Or, if you mount it 20’ away, you need to find a long throw projector that won’t put up a huge image with that long of a throw. But there is a trade off with this as well. The longer the throw, the lower your lumens will be. The more you zoom the lower the lumens. So you need to figure this out and then look for the right projector for your application. Not just the cheapest.

The debate over 720p and 1080p is a good one. When I view a really good HD movie in my room with my “old” Panny 900 in 720P, I have a very difficult time believing how a 1080P projector could throw up a better image. It is so realistic, so vivid, so much color and depth, I just can’t believe that it can get any better. But, I have not ever seen anything with a higher resolution, so maybe it can be better. I just don’t know for sure. I am however currious enough to find out and will be buying a 1080P projector as soon as I make up my mind which one to get. But for your room/application, I believe you are better off sticking with 720P. Not so much for image quality, but lumens. The current crop of 1080P projectors do not have sufficient lumen output for an application where there is much ambient light. You have to spend well over ten grand to get one that will work for your intended location.

So is it worth it??? Yes, I think it is. Should you think seriously about it?? Absolutely. Just do your homework and don’t go too cheap. Put up a “to not exceed” budget and give it a try. But be realistic too. You can’t expect miracles for pennies. Just because you find a good deal, does not mean that that good deal is the best option for your intended application.
_________________________


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#160362 - 03/02/07 02:03 PM Re: A Projector - should I? [Re: michael_d]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8283
Loc: Tacoma
Geex, I think Mike has Post Projector Stress Syndrome.

Where's JP?

Mike, Peter is looking at the Hitachi PJ-TX100, I think.

I have a couple more stupid questions.

As I mentioned, I am considering the Mitsubishi HD1000U.

My current target implementation has the projector mounted above and barely behind the listening position (which is at about 12.5 feet). I have a little flexibility, but not much. And there is NO WAY for me to get the projector in front of the seating. Don't ask.

First, screen height. My understanding is that the eyeballs of the primary viewing position should be about midway "up" the screen. Does that seem right? So, for example, if my eyeballs are 40 inches from the floor and I have a 50 inch tall screen (for 4:3 or 16:9), then the bottom of my screen should only be about 15" off the floor?

Second, aspect ratio adjustment. These are probably projector specific, but I can't seem find or understand the answers at AVS. I can't draw ascii pictures and I don't have the time to rival Peter's sketchup skills, so try to stay with me. Start with a 16:9 screen. Will a 4:3 image necessarily fall in the middle of the screen with equal, corresponding "black bars" on each side and the same image height?

Third, same question for projecting a 2.35:1 image on a 16:9 screen. I know Randy and Mike have those groovy constant-height lenses, but I'm not ready to go there. So, I understand I will have a constant width image and black bars at the top and/or the bottom. Again, my question is does that image necessarily fall smack in the middle of the screen height-wise, or what?

Finally, are you guys at all comfortable with cable runs longer than 25 feet? And it seems like I'd want to run both HDMI and Component video, right?

Thanks very much for sharing your experiences.
_________________________
bibere usque ad hilaritatem

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#160363 - 03/02/07 04:55 PM Re: A Projector - should I? [Re: tomtuttle]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3903
Loc: Up yonder
Geex, I think Mike has Post Projector Stress Syndrome.

Why? Did I come across as a jerk or something?? If so, sorry. Remember I don’t talk a whole lot. I’ve never been called a social butterfly, so I tend to keep things brief and to the point.

My current target implementation has the projector mounted above and barely behind the listening position (which is at about 12.5 feet). I have a little flexibility, but not much. And there is NO WAY for me to get the projector in front of the seating. Don't ask.

That’s actually preferable and less distracting.

First, screen height. My understanding is that the eyeballs of the primary viewing position should be about midway "up" the screen. Does that seem right? So, for example, if my eyeballs are 40 inches from the floor and I have a 50 inch tall screen (for 4:3 or 16:9), then the bottom of my screen should only be about 15" off the floor?

Rule of thumb is the bottom 1/3 of the screen should be eye level and below. My screen’s center is 45” from the floor and believe me, when it was 55”, I hated it. I am not a front row in the theater kind of guy, so if you are this may not even be a consideration. But it is a good idea to play with this height for a while and move it later to where you are comfortable with it. Just don’t hang it permanently until you have it “just right”. A couple inches can make a big difference.

Second, aspect ratio adjustment. These are probably projector specific, but I can't seem find or understand the answers at AVS. I can't draw ascii pictures and I don't have the time to rival Peter's sketchup skills, so try to stay with me. Start with a 16:9 screen. Will a 4:3 image necessarily fall in the middle of the screen with equal, corresponding "black bars" on each side and the same image height?

I scale all 4.3 stuff to 16.9 with the projector. I never have a 4.3 image on the screen and it looks just fine. Remember, 95% of the stuff you will watch is 16.9 or wider (including TV). But at any rate, the image will be centered in the screen horizontally. When you go from one AR to another, the bands at the top and bottom will be equal once you do the initial image centering when you throw up your first test pattern to set up the projector.

Third, same question for projecting a 2.35:1 image on a 16:9 screen. I know Randy and Mike have those groovy constant-height lenses, but I'm not ready to go there. So, I understand I will have a constant width image and black bars at the top and/or the bottom. Again, my question is does that image necessarily fall smack in the middle of the screen height-wise, or what?

Yes.

Finally, are you guys at all comfortable with cable runs longer than 25 feet? And it seems like I'd want to run both HDMI and Component video, right?

Yes. Just use a good cable. Monoprice or Blue Jeans 24 gauge would be more than adequate. You want one that will carry the 1.3 data bandwidth and I’m pretty sure 24 gauge will support that, but it’s worth checking into so you don’t have to pull new cables in again a year later. Pulling a component cable is really optional. I ran them, but don’t ever use them because I use the VP-50 and don’t need to. You should run at least one analogue cable for your receiver menu in case it can’t be carried over HDMI. I’d also recommend running a single, 1/8” mono cable in case you decide to use a RF/IR remote system like the MX-series. The flashers need to be routed from the devise controlled to the RF receiver. It’s a bitch pulling this when cables are already in the pipe (yep, I know).

Thanks very much for sharing your experiences.
_________________________


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#160364 - 03/02/07 05:25 PM Re: A Projector - should I? [Re: michael_d]
bridgman Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 5373
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
Don't worry, you didn't say anything wrong and your post was very informative.

I think the comment was related to the sheer number of issues that you said needed to be considered -- sounded very much like someone who had "just been there", had learned a *lot* in the process, and was still a bit bruised

EDIT -- Tom, I second everything mdrew said. Given your seating height and screen height, the bottom of your screen should probably be 23-24" off the ground. That would put the "1/3 of the way up the screen from the bottom" point at eye level.

SECOND EDIT -- Make that "I second everything except stretching a 4:3 image to 16:9 and watching it that way".

I *hate* watching stretched images


Edited by bridgman (03/02/07 05:36 PM)

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#160365 - 03/02/07 05:40 PM Re: A Projector - should I? [Re: michael_d]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8283
Loc: Tacoma
Quote:

Did I come across as a jerk or something?




Not at all! Like John said, it sounds like you have put yourself through a lot during this process, so I am extremely appreciative of you helping me not duplicate your frustrations.

Thanks, Mike. I'm grateful for you taking the time to help out. And perhaps I should apologize to PeterC for usurping his thread. Sorry. Just got excited about the bigscreen.
_________________________
bibere usque ad hilaritatem

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