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#162604 - 04/12/07 12:16 AM Re: Emotiva MPS-1 shutting down? Amp gurus help [Re: littleb]
dlaufman Offline
newbie

Registered: 04/10/07
Posts: 2
Hi Randy,
Hi apologize for getting some of your comments confused with another MPS-1 owner. It's just that after reading some of these posts on the different forums (not necessarily yours), my head is going to explode from the lack of technically accurate and meaningful discussion in some quarters.

I appreciate the desire to understand and discuss this issue, but the way to deal with and understand this type of problem is to approach it in a scientifically verifiable, repeatable, and valid manner. One must also compare apples to apples.

Please understand that my comments are not directed you or anyone in a personal or disrespectful manner; I just want to set the record straight, from my perspective. I guess my main points were this...

1. The attenuator indicator of the receiver volume control is meaningless for our purposes. The gain structure of the amplifier is probably different than the internal amp in the receiver. So, +X or -X dB doesn't tell us anything of value.

2. The fact that the receiver doesn't not shut down at x dB compared to another amp is again, not meaningful. What is the THD? What is the real power level? Does distortion or dynamic compression matter to the listener? Is it just about being able to crank the knob up all they way; like flooring a car?

3. The MPS-1 has a VI limiter that WILL shut down the amp when it is drive into HARD clipping. It doesn't make the amp bad or weak, just intelligent. I am a HT nut, I play my movies LOUD; I can't be in the same room with my MPS-1 and the speakers playing loud enough to trigger the protect. I also cannot tolerate clipping! In my opinion, this is a VERY bad thing. It ruins your speakers and is very unpleasant. If a person wants to listen to their system in this manner, maybe were not for them; we shut down when this occurs.

4. Our design approach is not a defect or a weakness, it's a decision on our part, like a governor or a rev. limiter on a motor. We think its just good design.

5. I'm not doing damage control, I'm trying to help all of you understand the thinking behind our products and hopefully keep you as a customer. Maybe I'll help you understand the way we approach the design of our products and enlighten others too.

6. Also, I'm hoping to learn from all of you on the forums, and maybe share some of my knowledge with you in the process.

Like you Randy, I don't want to start a controversy. I am very glad you are so into understanding your system and learning about the in's and out of audio gear. I don't want you to feel like you cannot come to us for any type of support or help. We are here to help you and we will try to do our best to keep you and all of our customers satisfied.

I understand that without you and all of our customers behind us, we don't have a business; we know who we work for, and that's all of you.

Thank you all for your support and interest in this great hobby and in Emotiva; we really do appreciate it. Your input and comments are truly appreciated and respected.

Thank you and best regards,
Dan




I
_________________________
Dan Laufman

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#162605 - 04/12/07 12:38 AM Re: Emotiva MPS-1 shutting down? Amp gurus help [Re: dlaufman]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13344
Loc: Iowa
Dan,

Thanks for posting again, your up pretty late. Wait, so am I.

I will be talking to Lonnie tomorrow to discuss my options. Maybe I can chat with you if your not to busy. One thing that puzzles me is that I'm NOT playing things that loud when it shuts down.

For example, you say you like HT and movies loud. Recently, I had some friends over watching an action/adventure type "guys" movie. The volume on the denon was around -15 which for movies is not very loud. My wife usually watches movies around -20 for "chick" flicks.

Anyway, during one of the parts of the movie, there was some explosion scenes/gunfire/etc... The left amp shut down during one of the explosions? This just does not seem to be normal. I find it hard to believe I'm pushing the amp into HARD clipping at 100dB from 12ft away during music.
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#162606 - 04/12/07 11:29 AM Re: Emotiva MPS-1 shutting down? Amp gurus help [Re: SirQuack]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8305
Loc: Tacoma
Maybe your cables ran out of electrons. Perhaps if you get them recharged.
_________________________
bibere usque ad hilaritatem

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#162607 - 04/12/07 11:37 AM Re: Emotiva MPS-1 shutting down? Amp gurus help [Re: tomtuttle]
speakergrrl Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/29/07
Posts: 68
Loc: NC
Quote:

Maybe your cables ran out of electrons. Perhaps if you get them recharged.




yeh, like plug them all into the wall, dude, then U will feel mo' better.
_________________________
It's the fountain of youth It's the meaning of life So hot, so sweet, so wet my appetite

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#162608 - 04/14/07 04:31 AM Re: Emotiva MPS-1 shutting down? Amp gurus help [Re: tomtuttle]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13344
Loc: Iowa
Looks like there is another user on AV123 with Maggies 4ohm speakers that is having the same issue with his mps1 watching movies. So it is not just me and my 80's.
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#162609 - 04/14/07 06:09 PM Re: Emotiva MPS-1 shutting down? Amp gurus help [Re: SirQuack]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13344
Loc: Iowa
Out of curiousity more than anything, I tried Bi-Amping my 80's today. Now I know some of you are going to call this "passive bi-amping" or "fools bi-amping" or other names from the past, since I'm not truely using "Active Bi-Amping" and an electronic crossover before the amp and disabling the internal speaker crossovers.

I talked to Alan first and pretty much got the go ahead to give it a try. I wanted to make sure that there would be no issues to hooking up a seperate monoblock to the mids/highs and one to the woofer section. The 80's have a passive hi-level and low-level crossover design.

I will tell you that I did in fact notice a difference, for the better, in the overall bass and mid/high clarity, contrary to belief.

The main reason for this test was I wanted to see if there would be any difference in regards to the amp shutdown issue. I used the same song as in the above tests and specs, and everything else was the same in the setup.

I turned the volume up to the same levels of 100dB average from 12ft away to start, which was at 0 on the Denon main volume dial. I'm just using that as a reference as before.

Anyway, this time I was able to turn up the volume farther than before, however, the amp driving the Bass section did shut down. Before "fools bi-amping" the 80's would shut down on this particular song around +4. With bi-amping, I was able to get up around +8 and then the amp driving the woofer section shut down. Just to let you know, I was able to go further and the mid/highs amp never shut down.

When the woofer section shut down, I was not going over 110dB from 3ft in front of the speaker.

Whatever this tells us....
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#162610 - 04/14/07 06:59 PM Re: Emotiva MPS-1 shutting down? Amp gurus help [Re: SirQuack]
bridgman Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 5446
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
OK, that's going to cause some serious head-scratching.

Without going near the "better sound" part of it, I don't think I even have an explanation for why you were able to turn the volume up higher before the amp shut down.

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#162611 - 04/14/07 07:04 PM Re: Emotiva MPS-1 shutting down? Amp gurus help [Re: bridgman]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13344
Loc: Iowa
John, my guess and I'm sure I'll get slammed for it, is that before I had one monoblock driving all the drivers (6), and now have 2 seperate monoblocks. So one 300 monoblock is probably able to drive the woofers more efficiently/easily by itself, then when it also has to drive the mids/highs also. That being said, I'm guessing it had a little more headroom.
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#162612 - 04/14/07 07:12 PM Re: Emotiva MPS-1 shutting down? Amp gurus help [Re: bridgman]
dllewel Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 06/20/05
Posts: 1189
Loc: Utah, USA
Is it possibly because when connected to the woofer only segment of the M80s, the impediance was something higher than 4 Ohms? If it was 6 or 8 then it would require less current from the amp. Interesting... very interesting.
_________________________
-Dave

M80s VP150 QS8s EP500s
ravenmanor.com/cinema/

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#162613 - 04/14/07 08:15 PM Re: Emotiva MPS-1 shutting down? Amp gurus help [Re: dllewel]
bridgman Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 5446
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
>>John, my guess and I'm sure I'll get slammed for it...

Well, bumped maybe, but not slammed. Bumped lots of times... by at least two people named John...

>>... is that before I had one monoblock driving all the drivers (6), and now have 2 seperate monoblocks. So one 300 monoblock is probably able to drive the woofers more efficiently/easily by itself, then when it also has to drive the mids/highs also.

This was discussed a lot recently, not sure if in this thread or another one. Consensus was that the crossover shows a much higher impedence outside the frequency range, so the combined impedence in the woofer range is only a tiny bit lower than the woofer alone. A tiny bit might be enough, I guess...

OK, here's an interesting question for JohnK or others. I think we all agree that you don't get any more *voltage* headroom from biamping without a crossover before the amps (so the amp normally clips at the same input level as before), but I guess you would get a bit less total *current* draw on the woofer side if the impedence outside the woofer frequency range was higher ?

We should look at the M80 impedence curves again to see if the impedence dips in the crossover region between woofer and midrange -- if so, separating the two might eliminate the dip and a potential trouble spot for the amplifier...

>>That being said, I'm guessing it had a little more headroom.

Current, not voltage headroom. Normally that doesn't make any real difference since amps clip when they run out of voltage, but this *is* a hint that the problem might be slightly over-touchy current-sensing circuitry in the amplifier.

It would be fair to say "duh, of course it's in the current sense logic if you only get problems with 4 ohm speakers" at this point but it wasn't so clear to me.

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