Get Free, Friendly, Expert Advice
Call 1-866-244-8796 or email

Designed and Manufactured in Canada Since 1980


AxiomAudio Blog

Blind Listening Tests

Sneak Peek into Axiom’s Current Research and Development

Axiom’s Newest Speaker: The In-Ceiling M3

Wall'O'Fame
Experimental Atmos
Greetings fellow Axiom owners...
Who's Online
2 registered (MarkSJohnson, pmbuko), 47 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Financing
Forum Stats
13323 Members
11 Forums
22902 Topics
404780 Posts

Max Online: 378 @ 02/24/13 04:33 PM
Top Posters
Ken.C 17783
pmbuko 16282
SirQuack 13337
CV 11212
MarkSJohnson 10911
Meanwhile On Facebook

Ian and Andrew join in the debate about whether or not people want uncompressed...

󾓶 The first review of the LFR880s is out! "If you are adding or upgrading stere...

So much going on in this month's newsletter - new product announcements, a new v...

Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#1703 - 02/19/02 10:13 AM M60 and Bi-wire
Anonymous
Unregistered


I recently bought M60s and I am running them with an ONKYO recvr.

I am using the Monster Bi-wired cable. This is how my connection looks:

I am B-wiring it on the speakers side.
The first cable will run from recvr Speaker(A) Left to the Left Speaker (which will be B-wired)

The second cable will run from recvr Speaker(B) Right to the Right Speaker (which will be B-wired).

A-Left-Recvr ----< Left Speaker
B-Right-Recvr ----< Right Speaker

And I have removed the jumpers. I have noticed that if I bi-wire the speakers my sorround sound is getting really messed up.

My questions is can I biwire M60's?? Why do I have to sets of binding post if I cannot bi-wire them? Is it only bi-ampable but not bi-wirable????

Advice please.....





Top
#1704 - 02/19/02 10:42 AM Re: M60 and Bi-wire
alan Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 3188
Loc: Toronto/New York/Dwight
To bi-wire the M60s, you should connect the two sets of cables to the left and right speaker outputs for Speaker A.

Don't use the outputs from Speaker B to run the right-channel speakers. I believe you may have introduced an out-of-phase condition, which would mess up your surround sound in a major way (no permanent damage, by the way.)

That said, there is no acoustical benefit to bi-wiring. It just lowers the resistance between the amp and the speakers (it can't hurt), but so long as you are using quality cables of sufficient gauge, there is no sonic benefit to bi-wiring. It just creates wiring problems like yours with consumers and lets cable companies sell more cable. So put back the jumpers on the M60's and connect them normally with one set of cables to each speaker. Your surround sound will be fine, and there will be NO difference in sound quality. Trust me on this one. No carefully controlled listening tests on bi-wiring have ever demonstrated that there is any sonic benefit to be realized.

I'll deal with bi-amping another day. . .

Regards,

Alan Lofft
Axiom Resident Expert
_________________________
Alan Lofft,
Axiom Resident Expert

Top
#1705 - 02/19/02 12:42 PM Re: M60 and Bi-wire
BBIBH Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/10/02
Posts: 1045
Loc: Canada
No, if the facility to biamp or biwire is available, you should be able to connect them properly. I agree with Alan on the point that it confuses most people, and causes dissatisfaction when it is not connected properly. As he mentioned, you most likely have done no damage, but have created a phase problem.

Your best bet is to simply connect them without biwire connections, and make sure everything works. Biwiring may work, but lets make sure it sounds proper in regular wired mode.

The concept of biwiring and biamping has a basis in the designer "splitting" the crossover into 2 independent modules, and providing separate external connections. They are connected normally, and a provision to break the crossover into 2 modules by removing a connector is included. For biamping, this can mean you are able to drive the 2 modules and respective drivers with separate amps, or biwire - connect separate cables at each connector that are joined to the same amp channel. The main premise is to isolate the crossover sections and eliminate distortion. Remember, crossover networks are electronic components, and are subject to all the properties of such devices. They are made up of, but not limited to resistors, capacitors and inductors. Biwiring also changes the "network load" on an amp, as a cable is also a complex load of the above values similar to a speaker and crossover network.

As Alan states, the benefits are an area of much discussion. It very powerful, specially designed systems, the effects are noticeable. For most of us humans, the debate rages on. Biamping is another matter.

I got your private message, and will respond to it as well.

Regards,

BBIBH
_________________________
Regards,

Mike

Top
#1706 - 02/19/02 02:51 PM Re: M60 and Bi-wire
Anonymous
Unregistered


If bi-wiring causes so many problems and gives no acoustical benefits, why do you put it in M60i-es?



Top
#1707 - 02/19/02 02:55 PM Re: M60 and Bi-wire
Anonymous
Unregistered


A good point!

Sounds like BBIBH wants to disagree with Alan on the biwire feature, but is maybe too polite to get down and dirty!

BBIBH, is there a difference? I can't believe that Ian would include a feature with extra cost that does nothing?

Rick



Top
#1708 - 02/20/02 11:39 AM Re: M60 and Bi-wire
BBIBH Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/10/02
Posts: 1045
Loc: Canada
The original poster and I have taken this off line, as he has some difficult and possibly serious problems.

As for my thoughts on biwiring, I am in the middle. Yes it does make a difference in some circumstances, and not in others. I do not believe everything that the testing at NRC has revealed. This is because statistics can be used to prove anything the original testing panel set out to prove. The testing results and literature I have read from tests (admittedly sometime ago) does not establish proper scientific methods.

That having been said, they have enabled companies to produce quality products - such as Axiom loudspeakers. It gets back to what I have said many times, I am not interested in what people think or hear, I am interested in what I hear. Again, wholey subjective, but based on my tastes.

My thoughts on magazines and reviewers is another matter. Some magazines and reviewers I will read, and some I will/ do not. Personal tastes, and again, subjective.

Regards,

BBIBH
_________________________
Regards,

Mike

Top
#1709 - 02/21/02 03:48 PM Re: M60 and Bi-wire
Ian Offline
President
aficionado

Registered: 03/13/01
Posts: 808
I think you must be missing some information if you are questioning the scientific methods used at NRC; they are proper. These scientific tests at the NRC did however disprove some myths that can be hard to let go of. I know; I went through it.

Ian Colquhoun
President & Chief Engineer
_________________________
Ian Colquhoun
President & Chief Engineer

Top
#1710 - 02/21/02 04:07 PM Re: M60 and Bi-wire
BBIBH Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/10/02
Posts: 1045
Loc: Canada
No, I do not believe I am missing anything, and I have rethought positions on many items.
Techniques and theories that are properly aligned are wonderful tools. Many times the theoretical end points justify the procedures, sometimes they do not.

I can understand your defending them, since many quality observations have emerged from NRC. I hold many things I have experienced resulting from research performed there in high regard. While others are simply pandering to the masses. In terms of audio, I refuse to believe that If I can honestly say there is a difference in something, and NRC has declared it is not so in whatever type of listening test, that I am imagining things. Many magazines make the same mistake, or go the complete opposite. Some of them use antiquated testing methods, or the testing labs have ties to the magazines. Hardly objective. But in this case I would agree that it is difficult to argue the validity of all testing. I researched an issue while in college, and I tested using similar methods, and newer proven techniques and found a differing result. Perhaps I will look at recent research.

As you mentioned, it is difficult to let go or change mindsets. I have several changes I am fighting with currently. Anytime an imperfect human (virtually every human) is involved, everything becomes subjective. This is an across the board statement, not singling anyone or issue out

Critical thinking and objectivity are learned traits. Proper scientific methods creates theories and works to prove or disprove them. The desired output is what is determined, not the other way around.

Regards,

BBIBH
_________________________
Regards,

Mike

Top
#1711 - 02/21/02 04:53 PM Re: M60 and Bi-wire
Anonymous
Unregistered


Uhmm.. back to bi-wiring question,
does it have any sense or not, and if not, why to put the capability in?



Top
#1712 - 02/21/02 06:47 PM Re: M60 and Bi-wire
BBIBH Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/10/02
Posts: 1045
Loc: Canada
Yes, I guess we did get carried away.....

Ian , I remember hearing about NRC and Project Athena. Has anything come from this? That was sometime ago, and I would be interested in reading anything published.

The original poster and I have been working offline to determine the problems he has. We have seemingly made progress, and continue to exchange thoughts and testing results.

I would venture that Ian includes the ability to BIAMP the speakers. That is the nature of the technical connections included in the speakers. This feature can be used to BIWIRE as well. I am somewhat convinced that his design was aimed at biamping, and the same connections conveniently can be used for biwiring.

As for if it makes a difference, well, you have read the previous posts. Your mileage may vary.

Regards,

BBIBH
_________________________
Regards,

Mike

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >



Moderator:  alan, Amie, Andrew, axiomadmin, Brent, Debbie, Ian, Jc 

Home  |  Corporate Info  |  Products  |  Message Board  |  FAQs  |  Warranty  |  Site Map  |  Privacy Statement   |  Contact Us

©2014 Colquhoun Audio Laboratories Limited
All Rights Reserved.