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#182196 - 11/06/07 03:21 PM Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80’s yet?
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3904
Loc: Up yonder

Here I go again…..

I believe I’ve narrowed down my choice for the next audio processor to the 3808CI. Before I buy one, I’d like to know how well it plays with the M80’s. And none of that half watt talk Mojo!! \:\)

This receiver sounds too good to be true. I just spent the better part of the AM scanning user posts at AVS and there are very few, if any issues being reported. The few that have been reported have been addressed with a recent firmware update too.

Other receivers I have been looking at are:
Onkyo 905
Integra 8.8
Yamaha 3800

It would appear the 905 and 8.8 have a more robust power supplies, but they’re crippled with numerous issues that I don’t care to deal with.

The 3808 is lacking THX Ultra (or any THX cert for that matter).

The 3808 has what appears to be a pretty slick GUI that overlays onto HD video. No others have this.

The 3800 lacks Audysey, and I’m an Audysey junky. I wasn’t too impressed with Yamaha’s room EQ.

The 8.8 and 905 incorporate the Reon chip, but that’s a non issue for me. I’ll keep my external Video Processor in the chain.
_________________________


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#182201 - 11/06/07 03:36 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80’s yet? [Re: michael_d]
Hutzal Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Hollywood. (Canadian @ <3)
I thought you had the A1400-8 on layaway?
_________________________
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#182203 - 11/06/07 04:02 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s yet? [Re: Hutzal]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
The half watt is a limitation imposed upon me by the rest of the family. When they're away, the room gets quite a bit hotter than that \:\) .

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#182205 - 11/06/07 04:45 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s yet? [Re: Mojo]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8288
Loc: Tacoma
Mike, clearly the folks at Denon are unaware of your interest. Given your track record, I wouldn't consider selling you any of my products if I were in their shoes. Seriously, what's the upside for them?

OTOH, if Denon were to enlist your help as a product tester, and you provided a passing grade, they could be relatively certain that the unit would not spontaneously combust for other users.

I'll look forward to your review/story posted here, if I don't see it on the CBS evening news first.
_________________________
bibere usque ad hilaritatem

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#182213 - 11/06/07 07:07 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s yet? [Re: tomtuttle]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3904
Loc: Up yonder
No Rob, I came to my senses the last day of the pre-order sale and decided against spending three grand on a 1400 watt amp for my huge, 12 X 16 room.

Good to know you give that volume knob a twist Tex. We all need to stress the auditory senses from time to time.

OK Tom.. Enough out of you buddy. Go to your room and take a time out.

……if I do buy one, or any other processor, I’ll do another ‘mini’ review with pictures and smoke.

My stupid Marantz that Marantz sent me to replace the defective one has a problem that requires it to be... in their words “evaluated” for possible repair (doubtful) or replacement….again. If they replace it, they have to replace it with the model (8002) because they don’t have any 8001’s in stock. So here I go again, buy another receiver to tide me over while this one gets ‘evaluated’. This time I’m keeping whatever I buy to tide me over and peddling whatever Marantz sends back to me.
_________________________


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#182214 - 11/06/07 07:09 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s yet? [Re: tomtuttle]
HomeDad Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 3301
Loc: Central,California
Mike, being a Denon fan that would be my choice since that's the unit that has everything you want, I've owned 3 Denon receivers and never had a single problem with any of them, My old 3805 drove the 80's without breaking a sweat.
Besides us Denon owners on the board need a guy with your technical expertise to get one. \:\)
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#182215 - 11/06/07 07:29 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s yet? [Re: HomeDad]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.
Seeing how the only thing you haven't blown up so far has been the Rotel that should be telling you something
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#182216 - 11/06/07 07:31 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: Wid]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17775
Loc: NoVA
Yeah, I'm going with Wid. ;\) Let's see... you've blown up an H/K, a Denon (right?), a Marantz, a Yamaha (or is that one ok?)... that leaves Rotel, Outlaw, NAD, Parasound, and some other esoteric brands.


Or you could try Sony, maybe. ;\)

EDIT: Yes, I know they've blown up on you, not you've blown them up. Funnier my way. \:D


Edited by kcarlile (11/06/07 07:31 PM)
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#182217 - 11/06/07 07:35 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s yet? [Re: HomeDad]
RickF Offline
axiomite

Registered: 02/26/05
Posts: 5210
Loc: Vero Beach, Florida
The 3808 is the receiver that I've also been keeping an eye on, probably not seriously 'till after winter though. Looking forward to your reviews and thoughts whenever you take delivery of your 3808 here in a couple of weeks Mike.
_________________________
Rick
Our Room

smile

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#182218 - 11/06/07 07:41 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: Ken.C]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
My little 1804 drives the M80s extrememly well and I have even had that 3ohm load VPM194 hooked up toit and had it cranked up pretty good, no smoke and no clipping. I couldn't imagine a better power supply than the ones Denon is using.

You may want to hold out for the yet to be released Sherwood Newcastle R872 or R972, as they appear to be going with the Reon as well; and Axiom sells S/N so you know they will work with the M80s. Everything else about the S/N's I have found looks to be similar if not taken from (or vice versa) Denon.

You said the 3808 lacks Audyssey yet I see it listed on the product sheet.


Edited by jakewash (11/06/07 08:02 PM)
Edit Reason: added info
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Jason
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#182220 - 11/06/07 07:51 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: jakewash]
terzaghi Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 4848
Loc: Tulsa, Oklahoma
I am thinking about getting this receiver too... probably sooner rather than later. not sure though.

Let me know what you think if you pick it up
_________________________
-David

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#182221 - 11/06/07 08:02 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: terzaghi]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8288
Loc: Tacoma
Yeah, but Mike doesn't care about the Reon chip because he has an external video processor.

I'm going back to "time out" now.
_________________________
bibere usque ad hilaritatem

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#182246 - 11/06/07 09:50 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s yet? [Re: michael_d]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10388
Mike, if the 3800 is out because you want Audyssey, and the Reon on the 905 doesn't have a special attraction because of your separate video processor, that leaves the 3808 and of course there's no reason why it wouldn't be excellent with your M80s; no opinions needed. You might keep in mind though that the Sherwood Newcastle 972 which might be out in about three months will have a version of the Trinnov audio processor.
_________________________
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Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#182247 - 11/06/07 09:55 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: tomtuttle]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3904
Loc: Up yonder
I reckon I opened myself to all this..... Abuse!!! \:\)

I’d love to have Rotel, or NAD even, but unfortunately they do not have any HDMI audio processing. I’m really irritated with NAD in that regards too… They delayed release of their latest and greatest processors to incorporate HDMI 1.3 verses 1.1, to only enable Multi Channel PCM processing. They have no plans to decode the bitstream formats from BR or HD. And Rotel is one step further back than NAD. They just switch HDMI….. No, the only three choices I have are Denon, Onkyo/Integra and Yamaha (and I ain’t even considering another stinking Marantz, so that’s not an option).

The S/N 972 continues to get pushed back. Now their talking second quarter of 08 and they can’t even make up their mind what VP to use….

And for the record Rick / Ken….. I didn’t blow any up. We just have had, er…. Uh… disagreements. I think they should work as advertised, and they don’t. So you two just join Tom in ‘time out’. No dinner for any of you smartasses.

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#182252 - 11/06/07 11:20 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: michael_d]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17775
Loc: NoVA
Too late, I'm eating now. Neener neener. ;\)
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#182356 - 11/07/07 03:53 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: Ken.C]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3904
Loc: Up yonder
I had to take advantage of a sale occurring now for the Denon 3808CI, but ending at 8:00 PM tonight at 6th avenue electronics. $1099 and free shipping (well not to Alaska or Hawaii anyway). You have to call them and ask for the special price. http://www.6ave.com/shop/home.aspx

The games begin in about four days….

I sure hope I have better luck with this one.
_________________________


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#182382 - 11/07/07 08:30 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: michael_d]
terzaghi Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 4848
Loc: Tulsa, Oklahoma
is 6th ave an authorized denon dealer?
_________________________
-David

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#182384 - 11/07/07 08:57 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: terzaghi]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
They are listed on Denon's site as being authorized
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#182387 - 11/07/07 09:15 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: jakewash]
terzaghi Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 4848
Loc: Tulsa, Oklahoma
good, I just made a purchase for the 3808 from 6ave. Thanks mdrew for pointing that out! The cheapest price I had seen was for 1299 somewhere else.

I couldn't resist saving money so I bought it. I just need some speakers now... \:\)

I am about to have a $1100 hdmi switcher for a month or so until I get my axioms!




Edited by terzaghi (11/07/07 09:35 PM)
_________________________
-David

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#182448 - 11/08/07 11:34 AM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: terzaghi]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3904
Loc: Up yonder
That's why I bought it too... I have not seen it that low from an authorized dealer before. At that price, I can't be worse off than I am now.

Anyone want a Marnatz? LOL
_________________________


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#182450 - 11/08/07 11:51 AM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: michael_d]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17775
Loc: NoVA
Well, if you're just giving it away...
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I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#182596 - 11/09/07 09:43 AM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: Ken.C]
inthedeck Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 164
Hey guys...been a long while.

I also got a new 3808...and it's been quite good so far. Gotta love HDMI...the one cable solution.

Now, the one question I have...since the 3808 is compatible with 1.3a, is it worth it to get HDMI cables that support that bandwidth as well? They are not that much more at monoprice, so, I figured it might be worth a question, before I make the purchase.

Hope u like the receiver mdrew...I know I do, so far. Though, since my wife and I just moved to Florida (back in June), it's going to take some time to get the new room setup.

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#182599 - 11/09/07 10:17 AM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: inthedeck]
Hutzal Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Hollywood. (Canadian @ <3)
I have heard that the new 1.3a cables are just marketing gimmicks...however, I could be wrong, I do know that normal HDMI cables have the bandwidth to carry most of the 1.3a specs, if not all of them.

I say go for the 1.3a if you have a 1.3 compatible display.
_________________________
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#182602 - 11/09/07 10:49 AM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: Hutzal]
inthedeck Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 164
I will have to check the specs for the TV...but, I do know that the receiver accepts 1.3a signals.

I doubt that the Direct TV receiver, although an HD receiver, can pass out 1.3a signals...but other devices, such as HD-DVD players, the PS3, etc. are all 1.3a compliant.

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#182603 - 11/09/07 10:50 AM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: inthedeck]
Hutzal Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Hollywood. (Canadian @ <3)
No matter what player outputs 1.3a HDMI, your display has to be a 1.3a display, or the 1.3a is useless.
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#182614 - 11/09/07 12:00 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: Hutzal]
inthedeck Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 164
Cool...thanks. I guess that's the answer I was looking for. So, it's all about the display...for the most part.

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#182622 - 11/09/07 12:34 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: inthedeck]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3904
Loc: Up yonder
double post


Edited by mdrew (11/09/07 12:35 PM)
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#182623 - 11/09/07 12:34 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: inthedeck]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3904
Loc: Up yonder
The 1.3 spec allows for a much higher bandwidth capacity than 1.1, but from my understanding, that is mostly in regards to deep color because 1.1 can accommodate 9 channels of un-packed high rez PCM, which is a lot more information than DST-M and DD True HD in bitstream format (which 1.3 supports over 1.1 and 1.2). Deep color however, (again to my understanding) will most likely not ever happen. So I wouldn’t get all fired up to swap out cables just because you have a 1.3 receiver in the loop now. Where I’ve seen complaints with HDMI cables failing, is where folks have unusually long runs in excess of 35’ and they installed some cheap first batch 28 ga cables. I would suggest to anyone running cable, to just get a good 22 (or 24) gauge cable and that should be adequate. If deep color actually starts to show up, then I reckon it might be time to rip everything out and start all over with some new and improved media transfer system…..

So how’s the GUI working out for you? Any issues with that?? That’s probably what I’m looking forward to more than anything else.
_________________________


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#182629 - 11/09/07 01:29 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: michael_d]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11200
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
Yeah, content that's natively Deep Color seems unlikely. However, I could see color upconversion at some point, where the player or display intelligently smooths out the gradation. If bandwidth is really an issue with Deep Color, then I imagine all of that video processing would end up in the display rather than the player. Native Deep Color? Maybe with holographic media, ultra high-def, and the successor to HDMI.

That's just a stab in the dark after zero research whatsoever.

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#182634 - 11/09/07 01:46 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: CV]
inthedeck Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 164
The GUI is pretty neat. Much better than the crappy one on the HK Avr-7300 which I sold. No good POC!...hehe. It's actually set up pretty nice, and once you figure out how to naviate through it, it becomes much easier to use. I like it...but, ymmv.

I tell ya, I am glad that the Denon is Made in Japan...their workmanship is SO much better than the stuff made in China. No offense to anyone, but, that's just my take on it. I am sure there are some components in the 3808 from China, but the majority of it is Japan. I know the 'remote' is MIC...but, I think the rest of the receiver is all Japan. Of course, I would have to inspect all the chips, to see the truth.

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#182644 - 11/09/07 02:49 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: inthedeck]
inthedeck Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 164
Just tried to look up the specs on the TV...but, the only thing I could find is that the LCD has HDMI with HDCP. Not sure if it's 1.3a...as I couldn't find the specs, even on the manufacturers' site.

Hmmm....

Oh, and as for HDMI cables...I only have the two so far...one for the DTV box to receiver and one for the receiver to the TV. Never had HDMI cables before, since the HK never accepted those types of connections.

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#182696 - 11/09/07 07:57 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: michael_d]
pickupmykeys Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 35
Loc: Winnipeg, MB Canada
I'd also like to throw out a 'thank you' to mdrew for the head's up about the special on the Denon 3808 from Sixth Ave. I saved a load of $$ compared to the price I would have paid here. I'm in Canada and they don't ship here, so I had it shipped to a postal service in Neche ND. I'm going to drive down and pick it up when it arrives.

If there are any other Canucks from Manitoba out there that are a reasonable distance from Neche and want info on the postal service, just PM me.

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#182716 - 11/09/07 09:22 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: pickupmykeys]
noob_from_Georgi Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/07/07
Posts: 34
Loc: Roswell, Georgia
Good Stuff... I've been all over the place on what AV to upgrade to, but the 3808 has been on my short list.

I thought that I had to settle on the M60's though I really wanted the M80's. I did not want to turn my decision into a long math problem, but if the 3808 will drive the M80's without issue then it makes the journey easier. \:\)

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#182719 - 11/09/07 09:27 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: noob_from_Georgi]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
My little 1804 drives the M80s to very loud volumes, don't fret over the 4 ohms.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#182722 - 11/09/07 09:39 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: jakewash]
noob_from_Georgi Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/07/07
Posts: 34
Loc: Roswell, Georgia
JakeWash--- If your 1804 drives your M80's to very loud volumes, the I feel really really solid about my choice of a Denon 1804 thru 3808... Done deal! Thanks for the feeback!

So now my concern is which model from 1804 - 3808. Which is a fun problem to have....

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#182726 - 11/09/07 10:33 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: noob_from_Georgi]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
That new GUI on the 3808 looks to good to pass up if you can afford it. The lower series do not have this.....yet. The few extra watts of power and a few more bells and whistles doesn't hurt either. I am lookin at nothing less than the 2308 and up as they have the HDMI upconversion from all input sources.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#182728 - 11/09/07 10:41 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: jakewash]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
The 3808 is $1199 at "The New Connection".

http://shop.thenewconnection.com/viewite...sion&amount=.75

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#182730 - 11/09/07 10:47 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: Mojo]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
Back surround speaker channels re-assignable for bi-amping front left and right speakers!

So 260W/channel up front guys. Rock on!

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#182733 - 11/09/07 10:52 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: Mojo]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Is that enough head room for you above the 1/2 watt nominal?
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#182734 - 11/09/07 10:52 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: noob_from_Georgi]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
I've driven my 2105 well beyond its rated spec of 90W/channel with no issue.

And last week, I drove M80s/M60s/M22s/M3s/Bose601s...all in parallel at the same time \:o \:D .

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#182739 - 11/09/07 11:11 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: Mojo]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10388
No, still a mere 130 watts, Mo.
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Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#182743 - 11/09/07 11:19 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: JohnK]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
How's that, John? The rears have their own 130W output stages. So that's 130W for each front and 130W for each rear. What am I missing?

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#182746 - 11/09/07 11:33 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: Mojo]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10388
Sending the same amount of power through two sets of output transistors rather than one doesn't double the power or increase it by any other amount.
_________________________
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Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#182751 - 11/09/07 11:56 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: JohnK]
Haoleb Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/25/02
Posts: 1488
Loc: Maine
Although you cant really tell in the pictures. I think the new denons are HIDEOUS! The knobs are really the worst thing about them, Picture some cheesy walmart boombox, They have gone and stuck the knobs from one of those onto it. I was really dissapointed with the build quality of the 4308CI i was working with the other day. Everything about it just seemed cheap. The build quality was really no different than the 1508. \:\(
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#182752 - 11/09/07 11:58 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: JohnK]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
John,

The rear channels are 130W each. The front are 130W each. The speaker system consists of bass and mids/highs. 130W to the bass and 130W to the mids/highs = 260W for the speaker system.

This particular amp and I believe one of the THX-certified Onkyos have this capability unless I am missing something fundamental. This flexible assignment of channels is something that could have been done a long time ago and I don't understand why it's coming of age now.

Now it's not only BrotherBob, Wid and MarkStephenJohnson that can blow their brains out. We all can...on the cheap \:D .

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#182757 - 11/10/07 12:22 AM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: Mojo]
JohnK Offline
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No, the output transistors have no power of their own and as you know they simply serve as valves to measure out the required amount of power from the power supply section to the speakers. Any 130 watt amplifier sends 130 watts to the bass section and 130 to the mid/high section. Only 130(nominally), not 260 watts are available; funneling through two sets of output transistors doesn't change that. No "biamping" is involved.
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#182761 - 11/10/07 12:46 AM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: JohnK]
Mojo Offline
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John,

I think the point that is being missed is that this particular Denon has four separate amplifiers that can be dedicated to the front speakers.

Two of these amplifiers are the usual front L/R and the other two are the rear L/R that can also be configured as fronts.

So the first two can be connected to the L/R woofers. The last two can be connected to the L/R mids/highs.

Each of these amplifiers has the capability of routing 130W to each channel. So the left channel will get 130W for the woofs and another 130W for the mids/highs. Ditto for the right.

Since each speaker can now get 260W, that's a total of 520W for the fronts. That would give me 30dB of headroom. And a full 24dB when I get crazy and decide to crank it to 1 full watt per side \:D .

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#182763 - 11/10/07 01:02 AM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: Mojo]
jakewash Offline
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I believe John is saying that you can not add the 2 seperate powers supplies together to achieve the 260 watts for each speaker. He is saying the woofers are still only getting 130W and the mids/tweets are still only getting 130watts, you can not add those 2 together as if they had 260 watts of power to draw from as they don't, there is still only 130 watts of power to each binding post, which is not the same as 260W. The woofers will be drawing from 130W and the mid/tweets will be drawing from 130W, 2 seperate channels on one speaker.

What has happened in this formula is the load on each channel has dropped and you should be able to push each one a little harder before clipping.
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#182764 - 11/10/07 01:17 AM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: jakewash]
Mojo Offline
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 Originally Posted By: jakewash
The woofers will be drawing from 130W and the mid/tweets will be drawing from 130W, 2 seperate channels on one speaker.


Right. There will be a 130W reserve for the woofs and another 130W reserve for the mids/tweets - for a total of 260W per speaker \:\) .

It's different from what we have on our receivers, Jason. We have A & B channels but they are connected to the same amp that can only provide 90W for A&B together. A lot of newbies think that they can connect A to the woofs and B to the mids/tweets and bingo they've got twice the power. And we know that they don't.

But this Denon is part of a new generation where you can assign 4 separate internal amps to stereo.

Now come to think of it, we can bi-amp to 4 separate amps today using our Denons by using 7-channel stereo. I personally wouldn't do it but it can be done. Just wire the front two channels to the woofs and the rear two channels to the mids/tweets and set to 7-channel stereo for 90Wx2 to each speaker.

Heck, why stop there? Pull the cross-overs out of your 80s, cut the tracks that cross over to the tweets and connect your side channels to these tracks. Remove the clips from the binding posts, set to 7-channel stereo and you can have 90Wx3 for a total of 270W per speaker.

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#182766 - 11/10/07 02:02 AM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: Mojo]
Ken.C Offline
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Mojo, I think everyone is well aware that the amplifiers are separate. There have been several receivers offering this feature for quite some time.

However, there are a few limitations. Those extra 2 amps are hooked to the same power supply as the other amps. But even if you had 2 physically separate 2 channel amps, you would not have a doubling in power; each amp can only send its maximum. That doesn't mean that they are additive.
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#182767 - 11/10/07 02:08 AM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: Ken.C]
Mojo Offline
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Ken,

The power supply is fully capable of supplying the maximum power of all channels together.

My Denon for example is rated at 90W/channel x 7 channels. That's a total of 630W. In fact, it's capable of a lot more.

I can in fact pull out all 630W...and more. Don't let anyone deceive you by telling you that just because you have an integrated receiver rated at 90W/channel, you can only pull 90W out. No way! It's 90W x the number of channels.

Do you understand?

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#182780 - 11/10/07 07:14 AM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: jakewash]
Wid Offline
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 Originally Posted By: jakewash
I believe John is saying that you can not add the 2 seperate powers supplies together to achieve the 260 watts for each speaker. He is saying the woofers are still only getting 130W and the mids/tweets are still only getting 130watts, you can not add those 2 together as if they had 260 watts of power to draw from as they don't, there is still only 130 watts of power to each binding post, which is not the same as 260W. The woofers will be drawing from 130W and the mid/tweets will be drawing from 130W, 2 seperate channels on one speaker.

What has happened in this formula is the load on each channel has dropped and you should be able to push each one a little harder before clipping.


Tex,

Jason is right on this one. You will not get 260 watts to any part of the speaker when biamping in this manner. If you take your measuring equipment and check the power at each part of the binding post, with or without biamping, you will never measure 260 watts.

Do you understand?
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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#182787 - 11/10/07 10:30 AM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: Wid]
Mojo Offline
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No, I don't. I'm not trying to be difficult. I really don't understand what I may be missing.

Maybe I should post a block diagram so that we can discuss this more concretely. But that'll have to wait until after coffee, muffins and skateboarding.

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#182788 - 11/10/07 10:54 AM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: Mojo]
michael_d Offline
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There is no ground to measure to… You will not see 260 watts. Your effective current capacity is doubled, but not the voltage (I think).

Also, I may be incorrect, but I have always understood that receivers used one amp with taps off the amp’s windings to power each channel with its own capacitance. I do not think there are seven individual amps in a receiver.

OK, I’ll shut up now…
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#182793 - 11/10/07 11:01 AM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: michael_d]
Mojo Offline
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Mike,

Sorry buddy but I don't even know where to start with that one \:\) . Let me just say that there are indeed separate amplifiers for each channel. Once this is understood, what I've said above will click with everyone. I better post a block diagram because I can see everyone's very confused.

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#182812 - 11/10/07 12:59 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: Mojo]
jakewash Offline
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Mike that is why they specifically say discrete power, each channel has its own amp.

Tex, are you suggesting that the 3808 is capable of dumping extra power above the rated power into one of the channels? As far as I know the A1400-8 is the only one capable of adding extra power into any one channel. Each seperate channel in the receiver is not allowed to go that far above its rated power.

I know what you are trying to say, as the same signal is now being amplified by the 2 seperate amps/speaker, the power should be doubled, but the problem is the power is still not doubled as each amp is supplying 2 different speakers(binding straps removed effectively makes 2 speakers out of one), so this splitting of speakers keeps that power seperated. You still have one amp supplying power to a pair of speakers just like you normally would, only 130 watts to the woofers and 130 watts to the mids/tweets, at no time can either speaker set(woofers or mid/tweeters) draw from the other for more power to get above 130watts. The upper frequency range is being amplified by the 130W and the lower range by 130W neither range has the ability to add amplification the other.

Now if we never took off the binding straps(you do have to remove the binding straps to run to 2 amps on one speaker right?) and ran 4 speakers across the front, all with 130w full range, the front channel now has 260 watts of amplified power/channel but still only 130 watts per speaker.
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#182817 - 11/10/07 01:50 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: jakewash]
Mojo Offline
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No, the 3808 is not capable of dumping power over and above what each channel is rated. Kudos to Axiom...the A1400-8 is the only one that can dynamically assign more power.

Your explanation in the second paragraph is absolutely correct. 130W to the woofs and another 130W to the mids/tweets. If the woofs need more than 130W, they can't draw from the mids/tweets. If you look at the speaker system as a black box, it has the potential of drawing as much as 260W \:\) .

Heh, heh...I was thinking of your last paragraph last night. I see absolutely no reason why you can't run the front and rear channels to a speaker with the binding posts on. That would permit 260W to be shared however the drivers see fit. The only time such a scheme would create problems is when the signals of the front and rear amps are of differing magnitudes and phases causing current to flow from one amp to the other. But this wouldn't be possible if the rears are also configured as fronts and set to the same channel levels.

As a matter of fact, even with our Denons today, if we configure the distances of the side and rear channels to be the same as the distances of the fronts and adjust the channel levels to be the same, we should be able to wire all channels to our fronts, put it in 7-channel stereo and send our families packing \:D .

Jason, maybe you can try this today with your 80s. Like you said, it never ends \:\) .

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#182818 - 11/10/07 01:52 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: Mojo]
Mojo Offline
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Guys,

Do I still need to draw a block diagram? I'd rather play outside right now \:\) .

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#182823 - 11/10/07 02:04 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: Mojo]
Wid Offline
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You would still only be getting 130 to any one point of the speaker the same as if you just ran them with 130 a side with the binding straps in place.
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#182825 - 11/10/07 02:08 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: Wid]
Mojo Offline
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Well, I guess that answers my question about the block diagram \:\( .

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#182826 - 11/10/07 02:12 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: Mojo]
RickF Offline
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Bring it on Mojo, I don't believe a word 'them' other guys are saying ... what do they know anyways?
\:D \:D
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#182827 - 11/10/07 02:12 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: Mojo]
Wid Offline
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I don't care about any stinking diagram. You are not understaning what everyone else is saying. It's not like you hooked up a RB1080 to the M80s and the speaker would be able to draw 300 watts to both the upper and lower half of the speaker. No matter how you connect the Dennon at no point could you ever measure 260 watts like you could the Rotel.

Damn you have a hard head.
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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#182831 - 11/10/07 02:15 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: Wid]
RickF Offline
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Wid is speaking gibberish, he knows darn well he's sitting on 660 watts.


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#182832 - 11/10/07 02:15 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: RickF]
Mojo Offline
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Wid,

Do you want to borrow my laptop chiller \:D ?

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#182838 - 11/10/07 02:21 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: Mojo]
Wid Offline
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Nah, I'm cool You still have a hard head \:D
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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#182840 - 11/10/07 02:25 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: Wid]
SirQuack Offline
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Rick, think of all those watts your wasting with that fancy rotel. \:\)
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#182844 - 11/10/07 02:27 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: SirQuack]
RickF Offline
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Tell him Randy .... all 659 an a half of 'em.

Sheesh.

\:D
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#182846 - 11/10/07 02:30 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: RickF]
Mojo Offline
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Oh, I see. I seem to have hit a sore spot. Well Rick, if it makes you feel any better, you can do with 4 wires what I can do with 12 \:\) .

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#182847 - 11/10/07 02:32 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: Mojo]
Ken.C Offline
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Mojo, I'm not sure what will convince you. While there might be 130 watts of head room (whatever that really means) per channel, per driver array, it's still only 130 watts. 130 watts whether you hook up to one amp, 130 watts whether you hook up to two amps. That's it, that's all there is.
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#182855 - 11/10/07 02:38 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: Mojo]
Wid Offline
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It's not a sore spot Tex. I just don't want a newbee thinking he/she can double the available power to their speakers using the Denon in such a way when in fact they can't.
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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#182857 - 11/10/07 02:39 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: Wid]
CV Offline
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If the design is indeed different than past designs, then I guess I need to know WHAT that difference means.

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#182858 - 11/10/07 02:41 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: CV]
Ken.C Offline
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Thing is, it's not. It's the same feature that Yamaha, Denon, whoever's been offering for the last few years or so. You just redesignate those back amps to the front speakers.
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#182861 - 11/10/07 02:52 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: Ken.C]
RickF Offline
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Mo ... if I went out and installed a second drive shaft from the transmission to the rear end of my Ford truck I would then be doubling the HP and torque value rating of my truck, right? 1,100 ft pounds of torque in a stock 3/4 ton pickup truck, wow.

Isn't this basically what you are saying?
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#182884 - 11/10/07 04:21 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: RickF]
Mojo Offline
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You know what the caveat to this whole thing is? You can't exceed the maximum voltage of each amplifier. Since they're all connected in parallel, you can source three times the current but the rail voltage doesn't change. You'd have to find a very low impedance speaker to take advantage of the extra current. Having the current doesn't do any good if you experience voltage collapse.

The rail voltage of my Denon is about 35 volts. The A1400 on the other hand has a rail voltage of around 90V.

So why do they offer this then? Is it for low impedance speakers (like 2 Ohm) or is it so that you can double up on fronts?

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#182886 - 11/10/07 05:02 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: Mojo]
Ken.C Offline
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Nope, it's marketing. Plain and simple.

From what I've read, the only real benefit to biamping comes with a) extremely high volumes and b) external, active crossovers, neither of which you will achieve with a receiver.


Edited by kcarlile (11/10/07 05:03 PM)
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#182887 - 11/10/07 05:11 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: Ken.C]
EFalardeau Offline
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I think there is some confusion between bi-amping and bridging. Bridging does mean combining two channels on the receiver into one. Bridging is much rarer as a feature.
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#182889 - 11/10/07 05:22 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: EFalardeau]
Ken.C Offline
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I don't think I've ever seen bridging on a receiver, but that would certainly double the power.

I think someone told me awhile back that there are very few amps that can bridge into 4 ohms.
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#182890 - 11/10/07 05:33 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: EFalardeau]
Mojo Offline
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Actually I had two lapses in thinking:

1. In the case of disconnecting the strap and using the rear channels for bi-amping, I neglected the fact that the two speaker halves each have a larger impedance while the available rail voltage has not increased. There may still be a marginal benefit but I doubt it's of any practical significance.

2. In the case of multi-channel connected to the fronts, the speaker impedance doesn't change but the rail voltage remains the same. More current is available but without voltage there is no "pressure" to push the current out.

However, if anyone has low impedance speakers (say a couple of Ohms), both of these ways would power them very well.

So I'm glad I drew that block diagram for myself \:\) .

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#182891 - 11/10/07 05:41 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: Ken.C]
EFalardeau Offline
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Onkyo-875 has that (not the 805), but they don't support 4Ohm bridged.
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#182897 - 11/10/07 06:55 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: EFalardeau]
Wid Offline
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All the home amps I have seen that can be bridged recommend a minimum of 8 ohms in bridged mode.
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#182898 - 11/10/07 07:43 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: Wid]
Ken.C Offline
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Yeah, I found that out when I was looking with some interest at the Emotiva BPA-1 (I think) and going, hmm, if I get two, and bridge them... not so much.
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#182899 - 11/10/07 07:46 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: Ken.C]
Mojo Offline
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BTW, I don't think I've told you guys that my next pre/pro and amp purchase will be separates.

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#182902 - 11/10/07 08:30 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: Mojo]
SirQuack Offline
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Curious, why?
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#182905 - 11/10/07 08:48 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: SirQuack]
Mojo Offline
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My buddy and I did some testing at his house with a 25 year-old Sansui and a newer Pioneer integrated receiver. The Sansui sounded "better" at the same SPL. We put his digital storage scope and programmable signal generator on both and discovered the Sansui's transient response made the Pioneer look slouchy. Maybe it was the Sansui's relatively monstrous caps that resulted in the difference we saw.

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#182909 - 11/10/07 08:58 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: Mojo]
jakewash Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Mojo
BTW, I don't think I've told you guys that my next pre/pro and amp purchase will be separates.


I have been leaning that way myself but the cost compared to a 3808 or similar, is a bit higher and for me that might be too much.
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#182913 - 11/10/07 09:40 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: jakewash]
Mojo Offline
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I suppose you can always save a little longer.

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#182917 - 11/10/07 09:55 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: Mojo]
terzaghi Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Mojo
I suppose you can always save a little longer.


and go that much longer without all the features you are waiting for...


Edited by terzaghi (11/10/07 09:55 PM)
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#182919 - 11/10/07 10:09 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: jakewash]
JohnK Offline
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Boy, 37 more replies. There's nothing new about this and it's been discussed here at least ten times in the past few years. True biamping(questionable benefit for home use)requires two amplifiers, as the term implies. An amplifier basically is a power supply section connected to one or more channels of output transistors, which serve as valves to add the required amount of voltage gain(typically about 29db, about a 30-fold increase)from the power supply. The receivers which have a supposed "biamping" feature(among them most or all of the present Denons), apparently as an advertising gimmick, have only one amplifier(one power supply feeding up to seven output channels)and can't "biamplify".

Again, the amplifier always has to feed from its power supply to both the high and low frequency sections of a speaker. Funneling the same power to the speaker through two channels of output transistors(one previously unused)rather than one can't double the available power or increase it to any other degree.
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#182921 - 11/10/07 10:23 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: JohnK]
Mojo Offline
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There were some interesting things that came out of this today.

For low impedance speakers, the extra set of channels most likely makes a very audible difference. But, there are probably very few of those in the world.

The extra set of channels can also power another set of fronts. I'm not sure exactly what the application for that may be. But I've noticed that two sets of fronts sound more full.

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#182935 - 11/11/07 09:17 AM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: Mojo]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13333
Loc: Iowa
Oh my, Mojo may soon convert and realize that better equipment (seperates) can sound better than cheap AVR's, they are not all created equal. \:\)
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M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
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#182943 - 11/11/07 10:21 AM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: SirQuack]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
Yeah Randy. I like to keep an open mind about most things. The fact is that I haven't done any critical listening to integrated vs. separates. My opinion at this time is that some separates sound no better than integrated and perhaps some integrated may even sound better than some separates. But even if one sounds better than the other, I am the kind of person who wants to understand why.

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#182944 - 11/11/07 10:44 AM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: JohnK]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3904
Loc: Up yonder
 Originally Posted By: JohnK
An amplifier basically is a power supply section connected to one or more channels of output transistors, which serve as valves to add the required amount of voltage gain(typically about 29db, about a 30-fold increase)from the power supply. The receivers which have a supposed "biamping" feature(among them most or all of the present Denons), apparently as an advertising gimmick, have only one amplifier(one power supply feeding up to seven output channels)and can't "biamplify".


Thought that was how these things worked.....
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#183007 - 11/11/07 02:15 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: michael_d]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
Mike,

They have one power supply but multiple amplifiers. A power supply is not the same as an amplifier.

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#183021 - 11/11/07 03:59 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: SirQuack]
Haoleb Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/25/02
Posts: 1488
Loc: Maine
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
Oh my, Mojo may soon convert and realize that better equipment (seperates) can sound better than cheap AVR's, they are not all created equal. \:\)


And Monoblocks sound better than seperate multi or 2 channel amplifiers too \:\) complete seperation of the signal in every way possible.
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Haoleb's Audio/DIY Website

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#183023 - 11/11/07 04:02 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: Haoleb]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13333
Loc: Iowa
Now that is something I know about now. \:\)
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#183027 - 11/11/07 04:17 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: SirQuack]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.

Unless the amp is a 2 channel of mono block design.
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#183033 - 11/11/07 04:45 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: Wid]
jfdawson Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 10/12/07
Posts: 31
Loc: Frisco, Texas
i just got mine set up and it's working no problems.

3808
Pioneer 150FD
80-500 Axiom in 5:1

Will post pic's later of the new HT/Media Room. Still waiting on Pio 95 BluRay.

- JD

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#183039 - 11/11/07 05:44 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: Wid]
Haoleb Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/25/02
Posts: 1488
Loc: Maine
 Originally Posted By: wid

Unless the amp is a 2 channel of mono block design.


Yeah, But you still have everything in one chassis. So really, they are like faux monoblocks.
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Haoleb's Audio/DIY Website

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#183080 - 11/11/07 08:09 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: Mojo]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3904
Loc: Up yonder
 Originally Posted By: Mojo
Mike,

They have one power supply but multiple amplifiers. A power supply is not the same as an amplifier.


I'm sticking with John on this one until I see pictures showing a receiver with mulitple amplifiers. Plus, John reads way too many tech manuals to be this wrong...
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#183097 - 11/11/07 10:15 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: michael_d]
terzaghi Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 4848
Loc: Tulsa, Oklahoma
6ave shows that my denon 3808 is being shipped (should arrive wednesday according to dhl)

however, my bank does not have a debit for the amount of the receiver yet...? maybe they forgot to charge me. HA \:\)
I imagine it will show up as a debit on the next business day...
kinda weird tho, I bought it on wednesday last week and still no debit...


_________________________
-David

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#183098 - 11/11/07 10:17 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: terzaghi]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11200
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
Some places really lag on charging for some reason. I've received things before being charged on a couple of occasions. I was sad when they didn't just forget to charge me. \:\)

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#183102 - 11/11/07 10:36 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: michael_d]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
[quote=mdrew}...I see pictures showing a receiver with mulitple amplifiers. Plus, John reads way too many tech manuals to be this wrong... [/quote]

Mike,

Receivers may not have physically separate amplifiers in the form of their own separate boards. But each channel must have its own amplifier even if all of these amplifiers are concentrated on one board. All of these amplifiers in an integrated receiver do share one power supply however as they do on a power amplifier.

Note that the A1400 has 4 boards...for 8 channels. Each board has two channels on it. Provided that each channel has "enough" physical and electrical isolation, each channel will not be affected by the operation of the other.

I am sure that John did not mean that a receiver has a single amplifier. He was trying to simplify the complexity of the point he was trying to make.



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#183104 - 11/11/07 10:51 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: Mojo]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10388
No Mo, that's exactly what the case is: an amplifier has to have both a power supply section and one or more channels of output transistors to measure out the required amount of power to each speaker. These receivers that have been discussed in relation to supposed "biamping" have only one power supply section and therefore only one amplifier, although there are as many as seven channels of output transistors(which have no amplifying ability independent of the power supply).
_________________________
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Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#183105 - 11/11/07 10:58 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: JohnK]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
All integrated receivers and the majority of dedicated power amplifiers have a single power supply section. Some amplifiers
have two but that really is a special case of one as you know.

I consider an amplifier to be a circuit which takes a low level signal and converts it to a high level signal. In that regard, integrated receivers have multiple amplifiers.

If there was only a single amplifier, a multiplexer would be required to connect this singe amp to the speakers and you know what kind of a mess that would cause.

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#183377 - 11/13/07 03:00 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: Mojo]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8288
Loc: Tacoma
I've said it before and I'll say it again whenever necessary.

Egg Salad Sandwich.

\:\)
_________________________
bibere usque ad hilaritatem

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#183378 - 11/13/07 03:03 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: tomtuttle]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
Tom,

How the heck did you know? That's exactly what I'm enjoying right now. My wife is a master egg salad maker \:\) . The cabernet shiraz makes it go down that much better.

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#183379 - 11/13/07 03:05 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: Mojo]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8288
Loc: Tacoma
I know some stuff. ;\)
_________________________
bibere usque ad hilaritatem

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#183390 - 11/13/07 05:13 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: tomtuttle]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
\:\) .

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#183407 - 11/13/07 07:09 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: Mojo]
terzaghi Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 4848
Loc: Tulsa, Oklahoma
Well I got my 3808 from 6ave today. I ordered it on Wednesday last week and got it today, not bad at all! It also survived shipping unharmed, which is also good. Came double boxed with a fair amount of foam 'peanuts'. The box is pretty heavy!
My only complaint is that I told DHL yesterday to leave my item at the shipping center and I would pick it up. Came home and found a $1600 box (which i got for $1098) that had been sitting on my porch all afternoon \:\(

I probably won't get around to plugging anything in until my axiom's arive.

Initial impressions based on looks and feel alone are great. Looks like one heck of a receiver. Thanks again mdrew for pointing out the limited time sale!


My order from blue jeans cable also came in today.
However, yesterday during breakfast I was looking at the perimeter of my living room and realized I had not ordered enough 12 gauge speaker cable So I placed a second order form BJC... should arrive by thursday or Friday.

Now if I can only find a way to occupy my time until my axioms arrive. This is going to be the longest two weeks ever!

_________________________
-David

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#183422 - 11/13/07 09:20 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: terzaghi]
inthedeck Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/22/06
Posts: 164
^^ Read the manual for the receiver. Then, it'll be easier to set everything up, once the speakers arrive. At least you will know the GUI, it's functions, and the capabilities of the receiver itself. Get wiring ready, so it's almost ready, once the speakers arrive. So many things to do...so many...hehe.

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#183434 - 11/13/07 10:19 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: inthedeck]
terzaghi Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 4848
Loc: Tulsa, Oklahoma
yah, I was just thinking about the wiring, I figured I could hook all the wires up and run them to the proper place so I can just plug in the speakers as soon as they come.
_________________________
-David

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#184472 - 11/18/07 03:08 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: terzaghi]
terzaghi Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 4848
Loc: Tulsa, Oklahoma
Well mdrew, have you received your 3808 yet? how does it perform with the m80s?

I have my receiver all set up and wiring complete... now if axiom would just hurry up and make some blemished speakers for me! ;\)


Edited by terzaghi (11/18/07 03:08 PM)
_________________________
-David

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#196885 - 02/18/08 05:00 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: terzaghi]
jamin3d Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 07/24/02
Posts: 23
Loc: GSP
I've been thinking of getting the 3808 too. All this talk about amplifiers and power supplies made be wonder about the 3808.

So I looked it up -- according to Denon's site, the 3808 has 6 separate power supplies. Is this a good thing? Does this go against what others were saying about receivers having only 1 power supply?

Equal Power Amplifiers: 7 ch
Low Impedance Drive Capability: yes
High-Current/Discrete Amplifiers: yes
Independent Power Supplies: 6

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#196921 - 02/18/08 11:06 PM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: jamin3d]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10388
No, Jamin; there's only one main power supply section for the seven channels of output transistors(which of course would require seven, not six, power supply sections if that was the real meaning instead of being a somewhat misleading use of terminology). All the Denon models, even the bottom of the line which is available for around $200, advertise "independent power supplies". This applies to the several subsidiary functions in the receiver that require power, but again, there's just one main power supply for the output transistors which drive the speakers.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#196966 - 02/19/08 03:40 AM Re: Anyone using the Denon 3808CI and M80&#8217;s [Re: JohnK]
jamin3d Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 07/24/02
Posts: 23
Loc: GSP
Wow, very confusing. Thanks for clearing that up for me!

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