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#188574 - 12/16/07 11:37 PM Re: Reflections on the A1400-8 and other amps [Re: tomtuttle]
jakeman Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/03/05
Posts: 851
Loc: Toronto
Tom, people have been asking Denon for years to come out with a separate processor to no avail. Methinks margins are higher on receivers since processors can be matched with any other company's amp. But with Onkyo's new processor making such a splash at that low price point (see the excellent Secrets review) I believe its only a matter of time before Denon, Yamaha, Pioneer, Marantz and others come out with their own prepros.

That article has a brief discussion of the advantages of processors over receivers sound quality but the part on THD or IMD is not significant between the Integra receivers and the 9.8. The main difference comes from the removal of heat and RF near the audio circuitry and the use of an amp with better rise time, slew rate, damping factor, bigger capacitors and more power. I've never owned Denons however I've used my H/K receiver as a processor on occasion. I did notice an improvement in dynamics and resolution with the bigger outboard amp, in this case the Outlaw 770.

That Integra 9,8 combined with the A1400-8 has me salivating.
_________________________
John

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#188583 - 12/17/07 12:47 AM Re: Reflections on the A1400-8 and other amps [Re: Ken.C]
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4732
Loc: western canada
 Originally Posted By: kcarlile
I like the way this discussion is shaping up. Not too much sniping from either party (if there are parties).


Someone is having a party?
I think Ken is horribly confused....again.

 Quote:
Unfortunately its never quite that simple. There is much more to excellent amplification than power bandwidth. Risetime, slew rate, damping factor, intermodulation distortion, signal to noise and so forth all come into play. I have yet to see a receiver amp that compares favourable on all those points compared to a capable separate amp let alone address concerns regarding RF and the deleterious effects of heat on the circuit topology, noise and linearity.

All technical jargon which means little when any unit is played within its specs so yes, it is that simple.

A frequency response graph is what humans hear as measured by devices more accurate than the human ear. If a frequency sweep is measured as ruler flat, wherein do all your listed variables make any difference?
They don't, unless as i iterated to, there is something out of spec such as playing the unit too loud and into a clipping zone.

 Quote:
Tube amps can be an exellent addition to any system. In the midrange in particular their additional harmonics are much closer to replicating the sound of musical instruments and voices than solid state amps. Most are as linear in term of frequency response as solid state amps.

No comment.
A whole other can of worms.

 Quote:
When you have had time to properly assess separates and amps through long listening sessions please post your impressions.

I have many times in the past, years before you came onboard.
But thanks for playing.


Edited by chesseroo (12/17/07 12:55 AM)
_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

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#188601 - 12/17/07 07:19 AM Re: Reflections on the A1400-8 and other amps [Re: chesseroo]
jakeman Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/03/05
Posts: 851
Loc: Toronto
 Originally Posted By: chesseroo

All technical jargon which means little when any unit is played within its specs so yes, it is that simple.

A frequency response graph is what humans hear as measured by devices more accurate than the human ear. If a frequency sweep is measured as ruler flat, wherein do all your listed variables make any difference?
They don't, unless as i iterated to, there is something out of spec such as playing the unit too loud and into a clipping zone.


Really? The problem with your view here is that you presume linear FR is all that matters to what we perceive as good quality sound . It would follow from your statement that all amps will sound the same when driven within their limits (big qualifier but let's set that aside for a moment).

The other list of variables above have a significant impact on sound and that is where a side by side comparison comes in handy. It used to be that THD and IMD were distinguishing factors but these days most any name amp has respectable distortion numbers below clipping. Check the signal to noise ratios, quieter amps help us hear the micro-dynamics and nuances. Rise time and slew rate measure time, important to how tight bass sounds...some amps do sound tighter than others and again that comes out in a side by side comparison. Damping factor not important, huh? The designer better match that spec right if he wants good control of the drivers. In addition, size and number of capacitors also effect things. This isn't meant as an all encompassing list but it really isn't as simple as linear response within spec. Geez if it was that simple any old beat up pro amp or small receiver amp would do the job.

 Quote:
 Quote:
Tube amps can be an exellent addition to any system. In the midrange in particular their additional harmonics are much closer to replicating the sound of musical instruments and voices than solid state amps. Most are as linear in term of frequency response as solid state amps.

No comment.
A whole other can of worms.
Yes and subject of perhaps a different thread. I have tube amps as well. When properly setup they can sound wonderful. Besides the pleasant sounding second order harmonics the tubes generate, tube amps don't "hard clip", they let you down easily so you get less of that aweful distortion when you max out the amp. There are other features which aren't as good as SS amps.

 Quote:
 Quote:
When you have had time to properly assess separates and amps through long listening sessions please post your impressions.

I have many times in the past, years before you came onboard.
But thanks for playing.


Always appreciate another perspective especially when it doesn't contain sweeping generalizations. One thing about audio, there are few absolutes. \:\)
_________________________
John

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#188648 - 12/17/07 03:43 PM Re: Reflections on the A1400-8 and other amps [Re: jakeman]
PeterChenoweth Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 1349
Loc: Jacksonville, IL
So now that Axiom produces an amp, where have all the amps-don't-matter crowd gone? I'd expect them to be out in force on this thread, especially when someone has the audacity to conjecture that they can tell a blindfolded difference between amps! ;\) <--note the wink, guys!
_________________________
M80v2 | VP150v2 | QS8v2
SVS Pci+ 20-39
Emotiva UMC-1 & LPA-1
M22ti + T-Amp, in the Office

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#188652 - 12/17/07 04:31 PM Re: Reflections on the A1400-8 and other amps [Re: PeterChenoweth]
Worfzara Offline
aficionado

Registered: 07/25/05
Posts: 709
Loc: London area, Ont, Canada
My friend and I were discussing the cost effectiveness of the A1400-8 and we don't see the value at almost 4 grand. Clearly this amp is for the very few.

Don't get me wrong, it's a sweet unit, but as Peter says, all amps sound the same, I can buy a 200watt 7 channel amp from Outlaw for about half the price. With 200 watts or Outlaw power, I get lots of headroom in my 4000 cubic room. More than I will ever need. I would be surprised if anyone could hear a difference between the Outlaw and the Axiom. And it surely it wouldn't be a 2 grand difference.

I am surprised and disappointed at the price point that Axiom has chosen for this unit. Axiom is a company that develops high quality audio components (speakers) for a price that mortals can afford (even their top speaker, the M80, is affordable by most). I hope this is not a trend for the future from this company.

It would have been nice to see a 5 channel unit for around the 2 grand mark for those of us still using 5.1 with no plans to upgrade.

I know never is a long time, but I probably won’t ever have one of these in my HT room at that price point.
_________________________
paul

Axiom M80, VP180, Qs8, EP500
Panasonic PT-AU900
AudioTrak AT-6100
Denon AVR-990

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#188655 - 12/17/07 04:56 PM Re: Reflections on the A1400-8 and other amps [Re: Worfzara]
jakeman Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/03/05
Posts: 851
Loc: Toronto
I have the Outlaw 770 and the A1400-A sitting one on top of the other in my HT right now. I have gone back and forth and the A1400-A is more revealing, with more transparent highs and slightly tighter bass. The more relevant comparison is not the Outlaw but the Bryston amps from a performance perspective . If you check the price of any of the Bryston larger SST series amps you would conclude that the A1400-A is well priced.
_________________________
John

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#188658 - 12/17/07 05:01 PM Re: Reflections on the A1400-8 and other amps [Re: jakeman]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13309
Loc: Iowa
I don't think $500 per amp is a bad price, actually pretty cheap, especially for a Class D amp with this much power reserve.


Edited by sirquack (12/17/07 05:02 PM)
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
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#188664 - 12/17/07 05:10 PM Re: Reflections on the A1400-8 and other amps [Re: jakeman]
EFalardeau Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 08/27/07
Posts: 3269
Loc: Laval, Quebec, Canada
John, since you have both, what is the speed (rise time) of the Outlaw 770? The A1400 is rated (in its manual) at an impressive 8 microseconds to reach 500W. That surpasses 96Khz sampling rate.
_________________________
E = MC2 = ((2M80 + VP180 + 4QS8)/(EP800 + EP500))^(ADA1500 x D2v)
Audiobytes! 2M22! 2VP150!

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#188666 - 12/17/07 05:14 PM Re: Reflections on the A1400-8 and other amps [Re: jakeman]
Worfzara Offline
aficionado

Registered: 07/25/05
Posts: 709
Loc: London area, Ont, Canada
I guess it is a question of; is the increased sound transparancy and detail worth the extra 2 grand. Only each individual can answer that question.

I still would like to see a cheaper 5 channel version.

Paul
_________________________
paul

Axiom M80, VP180, Qs8, EP500
Panasonic PT-AU900
AudioTrak AT-6100
Denon AVR-990

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#188673 - 12/17/07 05:28 PM Re: Reflections on the A1400-8 and other amps [Re: SirQuack]
jakeman Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/03/05
Posts: 851
Loc: Toronto
Price for amps is like price for any audio equipment. It depends on the quality of what you are buying compared to other similar components. For this much quality you would pay nearly twice as much to buy the comparable Bryston/Krell/McIntosh amp. Having lived with this amp for a while I'd say price looks fair to me. I'd like some comparisons if anyone has an amp in this price range that produces this much clean fast power and its unique ability to transfer energy to any channel. For sure receiver users won't pay up for it but that's no surprise, but others who like top separates will check it out.
_________________________
John

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