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#191471 - 01/10/08 03:02 PM Re: Questions about bass management [Re: Ajax]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10886
Loc: Central NH
 Originally Posted By: Ajax
In fact, there are a several forum members who would say none of mine have contained anything worth remembering.


Seriously: Who ARE you?






_________________________
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::

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#191481 - 01/10/08 04:19 PM Re: Questions about bass management [Re: autoboy]
jakeman Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/03/05
Posts: 852
Loc: Toronto
Brian Florian who wrote the article is a lone voice on this "problem". In real world applications it is a non-event. Even if he was right, which I disagree with, you get many more benefits by optimizing individual speaker crossovers. My recommendation is find the right crossover setting for each speaker as per 1/2 octave above its lowest extension and enjoy the sound.

Where he has a point is to avoid settings which send the same doubled up bass with the mains and sub ie. settings which allow you to send LFE to full range front mains and the sub at the same time. All that does is create phase issues and sloppy bass. Because the DD LFE track is replicated on the LF and RF mains as per the DD standard it is always best to cross the mains at some frequency to the sub rather than run them completely full range uncrossed.

Bottom line: Florian's article doesn't jive with real world HT listening. Ignore it.
_________________________
John

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#191485 - 01/10/08 04:32 PM Re: Questions about bass management [Re: jakeman]
terzaghi Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 4848
Loc: Tulsa, Oklahoma
Jakeman,

I have the crossover on the mains(m80's) set to 80 HZ and the crossover is set to LFE + main. I understand this as allowing the m80's to play down as low as they can, but the signal from 80 HZ and below is sent to the sub as well.

I think that the LFE channel is strictly playing through the sub, but some of the Front left and right channel (frequency's below 80 hz) are being sent to both the mains and sub.

Is this the setting that you say should be avoided and causes phase issues/ sloppy bass?

I want to utilize the sub, but Think that setting the mains to small defeats the purpose of having floorstanding speakers. It seems to me that this setting allows me to take advantage of the near full range m80's, but the sub still helps out along the way.
_________________________
-David

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#191487 - 01/10/08 04:35 PM Re: Questions about bass management [Re: ihifi]
autoboy Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 118
Loc: Palo Alto, California
 Quote:
Originally Posted By: autoboy

So far, I regard this website as being highly accurate technically.

Well folks, we've fooled another one. ;\)


I was actually talking about the Secrets of Home Theater HIFI websites.

Now, I'm pretty sure that nobody here knows what they are talking about. :P

Seriously though, I appreciate your responses, but your explanation just doesn't assuage my fears enough. The way I thought it worked was that each channel was crossed over separately and that the LFE was never crossed over. Each channel's bass was redirected to the subwoofer. The other method just doesn't make any sense to me, but they sound so convinced that multiple crossovers are a bad thing, and they have been very informative in the articles I've read. Their "Bass Management Woes: Trouble on the Slopes" article is also very good and has me worried that not only am I screwed if I use multiple crossover frequencies, but that the fact that I use near full range towers means that I have a bump in output around 90hz (if I crossover mains at 90 like I do now cause of that article). I'm almost so frustrated that I'm considering some M2s for my mains so I can just cross them at 90 and never worry again. I've always wondered what the difference would be b/w m60s crossed at 90 and I've come close to ordering them just to see.

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#191488 - 01/10/08 04:37 PM Re: Questions about bass management [Re: terzaghi]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17775
Loc: NoVA
I'm finding that the LFE+Mains setting produces too much bass. I suppose I should set the M80s to small with a 40 Hz crossover for stereo or something.


Edited by kcarlile (01/10/08 04:37 PM)
_________________________
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#191489 - 01/10/08 04:43 PM Re: Questions about bass management [Re: terzaghi]
jakeman Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/03/05
Posts: 852
Loc: Toronto
Terzsaghi,

Your fine with your setting though you can probably improve it further. What receiver/processor/ other speakers are you using and how are they crossed?

The setting I was referring to is often called Large + Sub or something similar. I have been using a 2 year old Arcam processor with that setting which is described in my manual as, "Pure stereo is fed to left and right and extracted bass is sent to the sub woofer. In this case the low frequency information is, effectively, duplicated. "

That's bad. Avoid it if you have a similar setting since it creates problems with room nodes and phase between the speakers and sub unnecessarily.
_________________________
John

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#191492 - 01/10/08 04:52 PM Re: Questions about bass management [Re: Ken.C]
jakeman Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/03/05
Posts: 852
Loc: Toronto
Yes 40hz is the minimum crossover given the M80s extension to 34hz at the -3db end. It depends how well you blend it with the sub in the context of your room and listening postion. If you have the flexibility I would also try 50hz and 60hz and listen to what sounds better at various volumes. A key benefit of crossing higher is that you free up amplifier bandwidth which can mean less distortion. However, a more powerful amp usually means you can cross much lower with confidence since preserving amp efficiency is less important.
_________________________
John

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#191498 - 01/10/08 05:47 PM Re: Questions about bass management [Re: MarkSJohnson]
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6250
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
 Originally Posted By: MarkSJohnson
 Originally Posted By: Ajax
In fact, there are a several forum members who would say none of mine have contained anything worth remembering.


Seriously: Who ARE you?






If you didn't take such fabulous photographs I wouldn't talk to you at all.



;\)
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#191499 - 01/10/08 05:49 PM Re: Questions about bass management [Re: autoboy]
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6250
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
 Originally Posted By: autoboy
 Quote:
Originally Posted By: autoboy

So far, I regard this website as being highly accurate technically.

Well folks, we've fooled another one. ;\)


I was actually talking about the Secrets of Home Theater HIFI websites.

Now, I'm pretty sure that nobody here knows what they are talking about. :P

By Jove, I think he's got it.
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#191501 - 01/10/08 05:58 PM Re: Questions about bass management [Re: Ajax]
terzaghi Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 4848
Loc: Tulsa, Oklahoma
I have the denon 3808, m80's vp150, Qs8's, and ep-500

I have my m80's set to large, the crossover is at 80 HZ for movies and 60 Hz for music.

My othercrossovers are set at 60 hz.

Audessey auto set up originally set everything to a 60 hz crossover except the vp150 which was set at 40 hz.
_________________________
-David

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