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#191730 - 01/11/08 05:20 PM Re: Questions about bass management [Re: autoboy]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
RealTraps has tones that you can download.

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#191731 - 01/11/08 05:27 PM Re: Questions about bass management [Re: jakeman]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
 Originally Posted By: jakeman
If you have the sub connected through the sub out jack on the receiver and sub is on in the receiver menu, the sub is getting the full LFE signal but you have chosen to filter it out at the sub for sound above 40hz. On Dolby digital tracks you will get that part of the LFE signal on the mains so you are OK and not losing any information.


Really? You mean the 0.1 LFE that doesn't go to the sub gets routed to the mains? That doesn't seem right, does it?

 Originally Posted By: jakeman
In a conventional setup you would bypass the sub filter to get the full LFE to the sub but you said it creates too many room issues for you doing it this way. Where you may lose LFE information is on DTS track though I'm less certain about that.


Apparently DTS is encoded the same way as DD as far as LFE goes.

 Originally Posted By: jakeman
It seems to me now that the "unusual" large + sub setting, (which I never use because I'm trying to keep artifacts to a minimum), would be ideal for you if you are going to use both the receiver and sub filters. That way you don't lose any information because of the way you have engaged the additional crossover at the sub.


Yes, that would probably work well for movies. I'll have to try it.

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#191732 - 01/11/08 05:27 PM Re: Questions about bass management [Re: Mojo]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16289
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia




(I have a case of the Fridays)
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#191743 - 01/11/08 06:52 PM Re: Questions about bass management [Re: Mojo]
jakeman Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/03/05
Posts: 852
Loc: Toronto
 Originally Posted By: Mojo
 Originally Posted By: jakeman
If you have the sub connected through the sub out jack on the receiver and sub is on in the receiver menu, the sub is getting the full LFE signal but you have chosen to filter it out at the sub for sound above 40hz. On Dolby digital tracks you will get that part of the LFE signal on the mains so you are OK and not losing any information.


Really? You mean the 0.1 LFE that doesn't go to the sub gets routed to the mains? That doesn't seem right, does it?

No that isn't what I meant. If I understand right, ;\) you are engaging the crossover at the receiver at 40hz by setting the speakers to small and sub on. All LFE is now going to sub out. If you had speakers set large, all the LFE would stay in the main speakers. You are also engaging the crossover on the sub at 40hz and the sub is connected to the sub out on the receiver and you have the sub on in the receiver menu.

If you bypassed the sub as is normal, all LFE would go to the sub as well as redirected bass from the speakers below 40hz. By engaging the crossover on the sub at 40hz you are indeed losing LFE information above 40hz that is being directed to the sub from the receiver sub out. In most receivers, in order to get all that info you must bypass the sub or set the speakers to large. I don't have a Denon but that would be normal processing.

Once you tinker with both filters like you are doing because of room acoustics which is cool experimentation, then it seems to me you must go with the Large + sub to get all the LFE otherwise you aren't getting LFE above 40hz. In essense all LFE will stay in the front speakers which you will hear down to the M80s extension at 35hz and the sub will not give you any sound above 40hz but LFE below.
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#191748 - 01/11/08 08:00 PM Re: Questions about bass management [Re: jakeman]
autoboy Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 118
Loc: Palo Alto, California
The real traps test tones create a CD and the test tones are not in 5.1. This is the same for all test tones I have seen. I need a DD 5.1 track with test tones on each channel to see how the bass management of the receiver operates in 5.1 mode. 2 channel is stupid easy to understand.

I want to be able to run a tone to my center channel only while in 5.1. I want to set my system to a 50hz crossover on my m60s, a 90hz crossover on my VP100, and a 90hz crossover on my QS8s, run a tone to each channel, and measure the response of the system. This will tell me right away if the LFE channel is cutoff at 50hz like the hometheaterHIFI article, and the supporting articles (if you read them) state.

Is there such a test tone DVD, or is there a program that allows me to create my own DD 5.1 track? This seems like it would be something people would want for test tones. Why are they all 2 channel?


Edited by autoboy (01/11/08 08:07 PM)

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#191750 - 01/11/08 08:03 PM Re: Questions about bass management [Re: jakeman]
terzaghi Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 4848
Loc: Tulsa, Oklahoma
Crossovers can be way more complicated then I originally thought!

Jakeman, I took your advice and adjust my speakers as follows:
(I do not have the option to cross the m80's over at 50 HZ so I am using 60... I could also try 40.

All of my speakers are set to small and the LFE was changed from 'LFE + main' to 'LFE'

Crossovers are set as follwows:

m80's: 60 hz
vp150: 80 hz
QS8's: 100 hz

LFE: 100hz

I am not sure if I put the right setting for the LFE channel... kinda confusing.


I will listen for a while and see what I think.
_________________________
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#191751 - 01/11/08 08:09 PM Re: Questions about bass management [Re: terzaghi]
autoboy Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 118
Loc: Palo Alto, California
Setting your LFE to 100 or 120 is fine.

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#191752 - 01/11/08 08:51 PM Re: Questions about bass management [Re: jakeman]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
 Originally Posted By: jakeman
No that isn't what I meant. If I understand right, ;\) you are engaging the crossover at the receiver at 40hz by setting the speakers to small and sub on. All LFE is now going to sub out. If you had speakers set large, all the LFE would stay in the main speakers. You are also engaging the crossover on the sub at 40hz and the sub is connected to the sub out on the receiver and you have the sub on in the receiver menu.


Yes, that's right. I'll have to try setting the M80s to large during movies to see how my experience changes. I definitely don't like them set to large during music though.

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#191766 - 01/11/08 10:05 PM Re: Questions about bass management [Re: autoboy]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10399
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
 Originally Posted By: autoboy


Is there such a test tone DVD, or is there a program that allows me to create my own DD 5.1 track? This seems like it would be something people would want for test tones. Why are they all 2 channel?


If I remember right the DVE test tones does a sweep for each individual speaker.
_________________________
Jason
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My HT

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#191768 - 01/11/08 10:16 PM Re: Questions about bass management [Re: autoboy]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10403
Boy, this one has exploded since I looked at it yesterday. Some observations: autoboy, it's very unusual that a receiver offering several crossover frequencies would include 90Hz but not 80Hz.

Andrew(Murph), what you're missing in your #1 and #4 comparison is that LFE+Mains is only effective when the mains are set large; the reason they sounded the same with the mains set small is that they're exactly the same.

Many(most? all?)recent receivers don't handle the LFE channel in the way the Secrets article describes. Some have a fixed low-pass filter on it somewhere between 80-120Hz(e.g. one of mine lab tested as 3dB down at 96Hz); others(e.g.some Denons)offer a user setting such as 80, 100, 120Hz to set the low pass on LFE info; still others(some HKs that John Bridgman mentioned)use a choice of the settings for speaker crossovers as the LFE setting, or use the highest(not lowest)speaker crossover to control it. The exact frequency in the 80-120Hz area set isn't especially important since little or no actual LFE content is there. The reason given for ever setting less than the 120Hz LFE channel max is that some noise content above 80Hz may be reduced.

Generally, the frequent suggestion to set all speakers "small" with a 80Hz crossover appears to work well and no +mains to the sub(with mains "large")is necessary or advisable. Have the sub handle what it should do best(which should be at least up to 80Hz for a good sub)while lessening the lowest bass burden on the speakers and the amplifier driving them. Specific room situations such as the bass null that Tom mentioned for using a "large" mains setting to increase total bass output, might apply occasionally.

Study the manual, of course, to see if it actually clearly describes how the LFE channel is handled(good luck)or as a last resort try to contact customer service.
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