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#192136 - 01/14/08 12:25 PM Where to place additional subs?
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13323
Loc: Iowa
Hey everyone,

Lately, I've been pondering the addition of more sub(s) to help flatten out the lower frequency across all listening positions. I'm looking for recommendations on placement. In studying the Harmon papers that JohnK frequently references, it appears 2 subs centered on opposite walls front/back is very good, as is 4 subs centered on all walls (more $$$).

I currently have an EP600 which does a great job, and I'm also using the Velodyne SMS-1 digital eq. From my primary seat I've created a very nice flat response (see middle graph). This graph was run with my SMS-1 mic from the primary seat in the front row. It was also taken before I made any adjustments to the eq, the end result was even better. However, running the sweep from other seats in the theater results in very different readings. This is why I'm considering the addition of another sub(s).

As most of you know I also treated my room with corner Bass Traps and first reflection Acoustic Panels prior to adding the SMS-1 to the equation. The addition of these treatments provided great results to flatten out my frequency across the seating areas (see bottom before/after graph). The improvements came after adding my front corner Superchunk Bass Traps. At this point I was using an EP500 and had not yet completed my wall/ceiling panels, or rear columns.

So, the question is where to place the sub(s), and which subs to get. As you can see from the below drawing, my right side is open into the rest of the room, which opens into a large hallway that leads you back to the bedrooms, bathroom, storage, etc. I only have that 6ft wall, so not sure placing a sub there would really be considered center.

The picture shows my EP600 below my center speaker and screen. In reality, it is currently along the left wall, below the first reflection panel, near the front left corner. This placement provided me the best graph using my SMS-1 from the primary seated position.

So what I'm thinking is to move it back below the center speaker as it looks cool there. \:\) Then, get a second sub to place along the back wall, to the left of the walkout doors. I would put it below that back window, however, really don't have a way to get a coax cable around the door.

The way it is now, I will have to run one around the room along the left wall floor. I plan to daisy chain it off of the line-out jacks on my front ep600. At some point in the future I suppose I could get two more subs and place one as far out as possible on the 6ft wall to the right, then place another one centered on the left wall.

If you look at my seating arrangment, in relation to the overall roomsize, this is what is difficult in deciding placement.

Budget is a concern, and I'm thinking about getting one of the new EP350v3's for that back wall. The specs are pretty impressive. I could get two of them from the FO, for the price of one EP500. Or maybe just one 500 would be adequate and I would never need any further subs, it is just the price is pretty steep.

So, what do you all think? Sorry for being so long on this post.

ps: trying to save up for a 1400-8, so keep that in mind. \:\)








_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
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#192148 - 01/14/08 01:11 PM Re: Where to place additional subs? [Re: SirQuack]
jakeman Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/03/05
Posts: 852
Loc: Toronto
One of the benefits of the SMS is that you can place one sub up front where you like it and another in your seat for testing. Walking around the walls while looking at the display will reveal your best placement options.

In that huge space I'd go for 2 350v2s rather than one 500. That would work better with your main objective of smoother FR across most seats. I'm currently running with a quad of subs in a 3500cf space, one on each midwall, and FR is about the same now in all seats.
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John

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#192170 - 01/14/08 02:26 PM Re: Where to place additional subs? [Re: jakeman]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13323
Loc: Iowa
So your saying one 350v3 on the rear wall and one centered on the left wall somewhere?
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#192178 - 01/14/08 03:21 PM Re: Where to place additional subs? [Re: SirQuack]
jakeman Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/03/05
Posts: 852
Loc: Toronto
Hi Randy. You will want to experiment a bit but seeing how you are starting with such a nice graph I would leave the 600 where you have it currently, maybe move it more into the corner for the extra output then walk the mic around to see what gives you the smoothest response at the sweet spot. Might even be worth trying both up front in the corners, in light of your large irregular room. I'm sure you will find the right spot by walking that mic around. A 350v3 should mesh well with the 600. Also if possible, I'd try to find a spot the distance of the 600 less 3 feet to get the time delay aligned. You are still going to have to compromise a bit to balance FR across the seats but it should be smoother for everyone.
_________________________
John

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#192188 - 01/14/08 04:01 PM Re: Where to place additional subs? [Re: jakeman]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8280
Loc: Tacoma
Well, this should be fun to watch. ;\)
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bibere usque ad hilaritatem

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#192233 - 01/14/08 06:55 PM Re: Where to place additional subs? [Re: tomtuttle]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13323
Loc: Iowa
Thanks John and Tom ;\)

I'm curious on feedback from others using 2 or more subs. Also, any ep350v3 owners out there. It seems the product description may be from the previous version? If I recall, the older 350 was recommended in rooms from 2,000-6,000 cf, I would think this new version might be able to handle more volume.
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#192244 - 01/14/08 07:36 PM Re: Where to place additional subs? [Re: SirQuack]
terzaghi Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 4848
Loc: Tulsa, Oklahoma
I know this has been discussed somewhere, but how did you create the db/frequency plot of your room?

Was that all done at a fixed location?
_________________________
-David

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#192249 - 01/14/08 07:46 PM Re: Where to place additional subs? [Re: terzaghi]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13323
Loc: Iowa
There are many ways to accomplish this:

1. Download the RealTraps tones and plot a graph or import into Excel. You will need an spl meter to accomplish, takes about an hour.

2. Use RoomEQWizzard free software from Home Theater Shack forums. You will need a HTPC and SPL meter and decent soundcard.

3. Use the Velodyne SMS-1 subwoofer EQ system which will create a graph with included mic.

4. Plus many other products available.

In most cases you are taking the readings from the listening position.

3.
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#192251 - 01/14/08 07:54 PM Re: Where to place additional subs? [Re: SirQuack]
terzaghi Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 4848
Loc: Tulsa, Oklahoma
What do you set your volume to on your receiver? Did you set it so that the test tone from your receiver was 75 db or what?


Thanks
_________________________
-David

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#192260 - 01/14/08 08:49 PM Re: Where to place additional subs? [Re: terzaghi]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13323
Loc: Iowa
Depends on the product used, they each have their own instructions. It is an addicting habit, worse than buying audio equipment and speakers. Just sit back and enjoy. \:\)


Edited by sirquack (01/14/08 08:50 PM)
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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