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#20440 - 09/19/03 11:50 PM Yamaha 1400 not working right; taking back
erikb333 Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 09/01/03
Posts: 19
Got my SVS PB1 in the mail today and hooked it up but with dissapointing results. During the YPAO you could barely hear the test tones. During DVE you could barely hear the levels. And I had the sub level up 3/4's of the way and the SVS at 12 o'clock. I wasn't being blown away; something was surely lacking. I decided to hook up my old Sony 925 to the sub to see if it was the sub or the receiver that was causing me the problems. Well, w/o adjusting any levels on the sub, I wasn't even able to put the volume on the Sony past 1/3. And that was with the Sony's sub level at default. Yammy's taking a trip back to the store tomorrow. Thank goodness I decided to spend the extra $ and buy it authorized. Back to the drawing board. By the way, decided to go with the M22's, so I ordered them and the 150 center today. Yey for me. The ice white SVS sub is frigin' beautiful.


Edited by erikb333 (09/19/03 11:51 PM)

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#20441 - 09/19/03 11:57 PM Re: Yamaha 1400 not working right; taking back
curtis Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/28/03
Posts: 1501
Loc: Manhattan Beach, CA
Does the Yamaha have a bass limiter like some of the Pioneers have? If so, that may need to be adjusted.

-curtis

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#20442 - 09/19/03 11:59 PM Re: Yamaha 1400 not working right; taking back
Oak244 Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/20/03
Posts: 68
Sorry to hear about your problems. I too have the M22ti's and VP150 with QS8's and an M2i sixth chanel. I tell you, you will be very happy. All my friends drop their jaws when they hear these. For the money there is nothing better! lol

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#20443 - 09/20/03 12:11 AM Re: Yamaha 1400 not working right; taking back
erikb333 Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 09/01/03
Posts: 19
I went through all the options umpteen times. Nothing. During test tones it was so low in volume, and it set the distance to the sub off by almost 4 feet while the other speakers were right on. Half of the movie recommendations in the SVS manual were crap. This really stinks.

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#20444 - 09/20/03 12:18 AM Re: Yamaha 1400 not working right; taking back
curtis Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/28/03
Posts: 1501
Loc: Manhattan Beach, CA
Did you check with an SPL meter to make sure?

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#20445 - 09/20/03 02:08 AM Re: Yamaha 1400 not working right; taking back
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16282
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
I had no idea receivers even cared about distances for subs. I guess I'm really behind the times with my Onkyo TX-DS575.
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#20446 - 09/20/03 03:07 AM Re: Yamaha 1400 not working right; taking back
sushi Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 1490
Loc: Dallas, TX
erikb333,

Assuming that you did everything correctly, I believe that your particular unit of the 1400 was overtly defective. If it were me, I would try another unit before abandoning the 1400 altogether.

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#20447 - 09/20/03 01:37 PM Re: Yamaha 1400 not working right; taking back
erikb333 Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 09/01/03
Posts: 19
Anyone using YPAO, how load are your test tones for the sub? Mine's literally a whisper.

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#20448 - 09/20/03 05:40 PM Re: Yamaha 1400 not working right; taking back
curtis Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/28/03
Posts: 1501
Loc: Manhattan Beach, CA
Test tones coming from a sub are less audible than the others at the same SPL. It has to do with how human hearing works and the nature of the frequencies. Get an SPL meter and check it out.

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#20449 - 09/20/03 06:04 PM Re: Yamaha 1400 not working right; taking back
sushi Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 1490
Loc: Dallas, TX
Erikb,

It's at 75dB nominally -- It feels somewhat softer than test tones on the main channels (as Curtis explained), but should be much louder than a "whisper," with the level knob on the sub set between 9 and 12 o'clock.

This is why I believe that your Yamaha is defective.

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#20450 - 09/20/03 06:10 PM Re: Yamaha 1400 not working right; taking back
twopecker Offline
local

Registered: 07/20/03
Posts: 290
Loc: Nebraska
Sorry to go off topic, but do you have a picture of the white sub?

Curiosity has me

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#20451 - 09/20/03 06:39 PM Re: Yamaha 1400 not working right; taking back
curtis Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/28/03
Posts: 1501
Loc: Manhattan Beach, CA
Some guys are lazy! LOL




Edited by curtis (09/20/03 06:40 PM)

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#20452 - 09/20/03 07:32 PM Re: Yamaha 1400 not working right; taking back
twopecker Offline
local

Registered: 07/20/03
Posts: 290
Loc: Nebraska
I was hoping some pictures of it that were taken by you, at your house.

Manufacturer's pics are nice, but only tell 1/10 of the story in my opinion. Kinda like an airbrushed model.

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#20453 - 09/20/03 07:42 PM Re: Yamaha 1400 not working right; taking back
curtis Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/28/03
Posts: 1501
Loc: Manhattan Beach, CA
oh...well I don't own one. Very happy with my VTF-3.

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#20454 - 09/20/03 09:42 PM Re: Yamaha 1400 not working right; taking back
mwc Offline
aficionado

Registered: 07/21/02
Posts: 958
Loc: Texas(DFW)..that country to th...
erikb333,

I picked up a 2400 today and have been playing around with the set up. I did notice that the sub test tones did sound quite low and I was a bit concerened. But when I played a movie (Evolution), OMG, the sub (HSU VTF-3) came through like a champ.

I'm still learning about how to set it up (manual is weak) but so far I'm very impressed. I've never heard my system sound so good! So far, I'm thinking that the YPAO just might be the real deal .

Does your sub still sound weak when you play a movie?
_________________________
*Does your train of thought have a caboose?*

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#20455 - 09/23/03 09:35 PM Re: Yamaha 1400 not working right; taking back
erikb333 Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 09/01/03
Posts: 19
After my test tonight I'm almost convinced I've got a preout problem. I got my M22's and 150 in today. I hooked the M22's up to my Adcom 200 wpc and calibrated an SPL of 75 db at 0 on the volume. I then hooked the M22's up to the internal amp on the Yamaha and again checked SPL with the volume at 0. This time I got a value 0f 78 db. Yes the sound quality wasn't there, but it was noticibly louder. So tell me how going from a 200 watt Adcom to a 110 watt Yamaha receiver amp do you get an increase in volume by 3 db? It ain't right. I just had to do this last test and I think my mind's made up. I don't know if I'll have the courage to try another Yamaha, though. I will admit that the YPAO is really sweet. It brought out details the same way a good amp does. As far as getting good bass for movies, yeah I do, but with the SVS gain at half and the level at +4 in my 12 x 16 x 7 room. Another thing I don't like about the Yamaha is not being able to have different levels for different inputs. DVD's need the lowest setting, followed by CD's a little higher and then TV settings need to be even higher (with respect to the sub.) At least the rears can be adjusted through the soundfields. Anyone know of a way to measure the voltage on the preouts?

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#20456 - 09/23/03 09:50 PM Re: Yamaha 1400 not working right; taking back
sushi Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 1490
Loc: Dallas, TX
Nothing is wrong whatsoever with the Yamaha's amp putting out 3dB louder volume than the Adcom. The volume level is determined by the overall "gain" of the power amp sections of the Yamaha receiver versus the Adcom power amp -- in other words, what voltage of pre-out signal is required to get 1W output from the amp. This figure has nothing to do with the maximum power output available from an amp.

From your descriptions right above, I don't see anything is wrong with the Yamaha receiver.

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#20457 - 09/23/03 11:12 PM Re: Yamaha 1400 not working right; taking back
dajlc Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 04/22/03
Posts: 29
Loc: Australia
To put it simply, I think you've got yourself a yammy lemon of a dud! Putting myself in your shoes, I would have no hesitation to send it back pronto! No point twigging around, trying to fix a problem when you were not expecting one in the first place, especially after the sobbing departure of your hard earned cash. I know, I sound like a prick but that's my idea of a fair deal.
_________________________
dajlc

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#20458 - 09/23/03 11:27 PM Re: Yamaha 1400 not working right; taking back
erikb333 Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 09/01/03
Posts: 19
Sushi how can a 110 watt "receiver amp" at 0 put out 3db more volume than a 200 watt Adcom amp at 0? You're saying it's normal to get less volume from a 200 wpc quality amp connected to a receiver as a prepro than it is to use the internal amp rated at half the watts? Just tell me that's what you're saying.

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#20459 - 09/23/03 11:43 PM Re: Yamaha 1400 not working right; taking back
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10398
Erik, sushi explained it quite clearly. The "quality" or the maximum power capability of an amp has nothing to do with the volume level at a given setting of the pre-amp. The Yamaha amp section apparently has higher gain than the Adcom, but that doesn't mean that the Yamaha amp is better, it's just different. What about this is difficult to follow?
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#20460 - 09/23/03 11:47 PM Re: Yamaha 1400 not working right; taking back
erikb333 Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 09/01/03
Posts: 19
About the sub pictures, I don't have a digital camera as of yet. When someone comes over that has one I'll tell 'em to bring it. And also, I have no idea how to get pitures on to these forums. I tried to put the pictures of my Uncle's old (18 years) B & W 802's that he gave me (but wound up having an unrepairable woofer) on and couldn't get it to work. Where do you find out how to do that kinda stuff anyway?

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#20461 - 09/24/03 12:07 AM Re: Yamaha 1400 not working right; taking back
sushi Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 1490
Loc: Dallas, TX
In reply to:

Sushi how can a 110 watt "receiver amp" at 0 put out 3db more volume than a 200 watt Adcom amp at 0?



Your suspicion is warranted If each power amp is supposed to be designed so that its rated max available power is reached at the same input voltage from the pre-amp. But in reality, this is not the case -- as John indicated, there is no "industry standard" for the voltage gain of a power amp. It is not unusual to see +/- 3dB or so of volume change when you switch the power amp.

But this (non-)issue is totally separate from the possible problem that you described earlier regarding the sub calibration. So, after running YPAO, does the sub put out approximately the same 75dB on the SPL meter when fed with a reference tone? After YPAO, how does the entire system sound with a music source, including the sub? Is the sub overtly too "cold" or too "hot"?

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#20462 - 09/24/03 07:12 AM Re: Yamaha 1400 not working right; taking back
erikb333 Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 09/01/03
Posts: 19
When I run YPAO now, I only run the EQ and the level functions with the EQ running first. I set my RS SPL meter to 70, C, slow. When the tones come out of the speakers, they're in the high 60's db. When it gets to the sub, the tone does not register on the meter. Now again, this is with the EQ function part of YPAO. During the level function of YPAO I need to have the sub level, in my opionion, way to high to get the levels to match (as compared to using other receivers.) I do eventually get it to match, but the gain seems high. Really the biggest thing bugging me is the fact that I can't have different level settings for different inputs. CD bass needs to be higher than DVD's and TV bass needs to be higher than CD's. Adjusting the sub accordingly and remebering the levels is a little annoying. I was watching the Pod Scene in Star Wars last night. I shut the bass off and checked my SPL levels. I had the volume at -5db and was getting peaks in the low 90's. The meter is an average of 9' from the speakers. Does this volume setting sound high for the level of sound I'm getting? The volume does go to +18 and when you look at the volume setting bar graph on the OSD it's at only about a half at 0db. It's just that after reading what volume level people listen at, they usually state in the minus teens or twenties, but again I don't what level their volume goes up to. I really like what YPAO did to the Axioms, so I think I'll have to try exchanging it first. As far as not having different settings for different inputs, I might just have to deal.

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#20463 - 09/24/03 08:01 AM Re: Yamaha 1400 not working right; taking back
mwc Offline
aficionado

Registered: 07/21/02
Posts: 958
Loc: Texas(DFW)..that country to th...
Eirk,

Sorry to hear that you are not getting along with your new receiver. I'm really lovin' my 2400. I've never heard DVDs sound so good.

Some things to try:

Make sure that you select "Max" for the "Dynamic range" control by going to Manual setup > sound menu > Dynamic range.

Have you tried both GEQ and PEQ and then switching between the two to see if there is any difference.

Make sure the LFE level is set to 0db.
_________________________
*Does your train of thought have a caboose?*

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#20464 - 09/26/03 10:45 PM Re: Yamaha 1400 not working right; taking back
erikb333 Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 09/01/03
Posts: 19
Well the dynamic range compresion is for the night mode only, so that really won't effect anything, but yeah it comes factory at max. The LFE is also up. And I did try an A/B between the two eq's to see the difference the YPAO made, and that really didn't make a difference in levels. But now my newest beef is the heat this thing's giving off. I've got about 5" between the top of the receiver and the shelf above and the underside of the shelf get's real hot. The receiver itself is super hot; you can almost not keep your hand there. I'm going to the store tomorrow to explore my options. I don't know what I'm gonna do. I watched "The Core" tonight and I had the volume on -5 and the s's and t's just didn't sound right out of the center (which is hooked up to the internal amp, not like the front.) I hooked the center up to the Adcom and the problem wasn't there. Sure I may be comparing apples and oranges, but if that's where my standards are going I'm gonna just have to deal (by maybe dropping another $700 -$800.) We'll see.

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#20465 - 09/27/03 08:52 PM Re: Yamaha 1400 not working right; taking back
erikb333 Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 09/01/03
Posts: 19
I took it back today, but now I'm without a receiver because I couldn't make up my mind. They offered my the B & K 505 for one year no interest...very tempting but I doubt I'll have the b*lls to do it (think the woman would kill me.) I'd like to get from the same store and so my best two receiver options there are the Marantz 8300 and Elite 55TX. I'm almost definately gonna get an Elite DVD player, so having the whole i-link setup going is pretty cool. I didn't like the warmth of the Marantz, but it would probably sound better given the sharpness of the Axioms. I should have listened to it with the Def Techs. I'm going back Tuesday and I'd really like to have my mind made up by then.

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