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#205743 - 04/27/08 11:01 PM Single M22 as a center
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7221
Loc: Canada
Ever the curious one, I have yet another question.

Would a single M22 as a center be a better choice than the VP100? Better than the VP150?

Looking at the pricing of centers got me thinking. I happen to have an empty toolbox that measures 8x20" so I moved my display stand (cofee table) into position and stood the toolbox on end in front of it.

The toolbox would definately look much nicer in HG cherry, but it didn't look imposing or out of place in that position.
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Fred

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#205744 - 04/27/08 11:09 PM Re: Single M22 as a center [Re: fredk]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10411
Can't speak to a comparison with the VP100 or 150, Fred, but can say that a single vertical M22 works well as a center speaker and better than horizontal MTM configurations that I've heard.
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#205745 - 04/27/08 11:16 PM Re: Single M22 as a center [Re: JohnK]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7221
Loc: Canada
Thanks John. I fired the question of to Axiom as well to see what they say.
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Fred

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#205782 - 04/28/08 11:26 AM Re: Single M22 as a center [Re: fredk]
Hutzal Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Hollywood. (Canadian @ <3)
Fred,

I use two M2's above and below my screen, in a vertical orientation, and while its not an M22, they M2s sound simply amazing.
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#205798 - 04/28/08 12:51 PM Re: Single M22 as a center [Re: Hutzal]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10400
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
I have tried it and it did have better horizontal dispersion and sounded a bit more dynamic just like the dual M22s on their sides but for some reason I did find the vocals more locatable from the speaker rather than the screen unlike the VP series, but that could have been my positioning of the M22 in front and below the TV rather than my VP series being above the TV.
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#205820 - 04/28/08 02:48 PM Re: Single M22 as a center [Re: jakewash]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7221
Loc: Canada
Oh oh. Too many options. Axiom says: 2xM22 is better than vp150 which is better than single M22. I wonder if that is because of the more directional nature of one M22?

Maybe 2xM2 might be the best choice if it will give me better spread of sound. I checked and the M2 won't quite fit under my coffee table/display stand.

I also have a line on some v1 speakers but am not sure how to value them, particularly since it involves a set of M3s that I don't realy need.

I thought my speaker fund growing faster than anticipated was a good thing, but now my head hurts!
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Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#205823 - 04/28/08 03:05 PM Re: Single M22 as a center [Re: fredk]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7221
Loc: Canada
Hmm. Axiom says the VP150 would still perform better than two M2s. No mention of the 100.

I was looking at my setup, and I could actually put the M2s either side of the display. I wish I understood more about the design of and compromises for centers.
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Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#205824 - 04/28/08 03:08 PM Re: Single M22 as a center [Re: fredk]
Mojo Offline
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Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
How big is your display, how far away from it do you sit and how far apart are your fronts?

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#205826 - 04/28/08 03:20 PM Re: Single M22 as a center [Re: Mojo]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7221
Loc: Canada
The display is a 50" rptv. I will sit 7.5-8ft away. Right now I am looking at putting the fronts about 10ft apart. Because of a doorway, my choices for the fronts are 5ft apart or 10ft apart.
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Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#205904 - 04/29/08 01:58 AM Re: Single M22 as a center [Re: fredk]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7221
Loc: Canada
OK, I did some searching and found a couple of interesting articles on centers and it looks like, even with well designed centers, there is interference between horizontally aligned drivers. So any of the bookselves, in theory, should give better off axis performance than a center.

Jason and Hutzals observations match what I have read.

Hutzal. I think you might have the right idea. For a little bit more cost than the vp100 I should get very nice off axis response and dialog centered on the screen.

I have no idea what the impact would be of the different driver configuration vs the vp150 (two tweeters, two woofers vs one two tweeters, three woofers).



Edited by fredk (04/29/08 01:59 AM)
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Fred

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#205919 - 04/29/08 08:45 AM Re: Single M22 as a center [Re: fredk]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
I don't recommend you put centers on either side of your TV. In your case, I believe top and bottom would work best. Your TV is large enough and you are sitting close enough that you will likely benefit from dual centers.

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#205933 - 04/29/08 10:48 AM Re: Single M22 as a center [Re: Mojo]
Hutzal Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Hollywood. (Canadian @ <3)
I concur with mojo. The only reason to get a couple m2's would be to put one above and below the screen. Axiom is correct that a VP150 would outperform 2 M2's, simply because the VP150 has one more 5.25" driver than two M2's put together. I find the output of two M2s PLENTY enough for my room. If you can't make the M2 centres work, just go for the VP150, which many say is a pretty good speaker.

You can also try 2 M2s on their sides above and below your screen, with an opposite tweeter array. The M2 speaker is so small, i doubt anyone in their right mind would be able to tell which speaker has which tweeter on which side...


Edited by Hutzal (04/29/08 10:49 AM)
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#205953 - 04/29/08 01:29 PM Re: Single M22 as a center [Re: Hutzal]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10400
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
I believe we found 2 M22s on either side of my 36" TV sounded like there was a phasing problem and the sound went from side to side for some reason when it should have just been stuck in the middle.
_________________________
Jason
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#205956 - 04/29/08 01:35 PM Re: Single M22 as a center [Re: jakewash]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
Good memory. That's exactly right!

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#205963 - 04/29/08 01:43 PM Re: Single M22 as a center [Re: Hutzal]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7221
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
Axiom is correct that a VP150 would outperform 2 M2's, simply because the VP150 has one more 5.25" driver


Outperform in what way?

From what I have read re: speaker interferance, the VP150 will still have more off axis falloff than 2 m2's set above and below the screen.

Here is my current thinking:

I was originally planning on the VP100, as I am in a smaller room and am close to the TV. For not much more money, the M2's in the above/below configuration will have very similar sound quality, but will have noticably better off axis performance.

Is that a reasonable conclusion?

Edit: I am guessing the trade off from the VP150 would be a reduction in the quality or overall 'texture' of movie dialog.


Edited by fredk (04/29/08 01:46 PM)
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#205967 - 04/29/08 01:56 PM Re: Single M22 as a center [Re: fredk]
Hutzal Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Hollywood. (Canadian @ <3)
Out perform in terms of volume output. That is it (IMHO).
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#205987 - 04/29/08 02:43 PM Re: Single M22 as a center [Re: fredk]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
Fred,

I tend to agree with you.

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#206008 - 04/29/08 03:58 PM Re: Single M22 as a center [Re: Mojo]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7221
Loc: Canada
Thanks gents. I think I know what I am going to do. If the M2's don't work out, I can always slip them into the bedroom.
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Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#206030 - 04/29/08 04:49 PM Re: Single M22 as a center [Re: fredk]
Hutzal Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Hollywood. (Canadian @ <3)
Fred,

The M2 is a great speaker, it has every quality of the M22, but just less output in a bigger room.
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#206038 - 04/29/08 05:25 PM Re: Single M22 as a center [Re: Hutzal]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8305
Loc: Tacoma
I don't think the M2's would have better off-axis response than a VP100 unless they are sitting upright (re: Robb's suggestion to put them on their sides but with the tweeters on opposite ends). I think Robb's setup with them vertical above and below is buttery and delicious.

I think the VP100 is really a pretty great speaker. Haven't heard the VP150. I'd certainly install two vertical M2's, but it doesn't pass WAF at my house.
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#206098 - 04/29/08 09:06 PM Re: Single M22 as a center [Re: tomtuttle]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7221
Loc: Canada
Buttery and delicious it is, no WAFF, two thumbs up!
_________________________
Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#206121 - 04/29/08 11:17 PM Re: Single M22 as a center [Re: jakewash]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10411
Whenever two speakers are located alongside each other(including the mains)and play the same sound, that sound will be imaged midway between them for someone located midway between them. When the listener moves to the side, the image likewise moves to the side with him, but not farther out than the speaker on that side.
_________________________
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Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#206123 - 04/29/08 11:45 PM Re: Single M22 as a center [Re: JohnK]
Mojo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 3292
John,

The centre channel was feeding both M22s on either side of the TV in mono, if you will. We were sitting right in the middle of the image and it was phasey.

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#206219 - 04/30/08 10:05 AM Re: Single M22 as a center [Re: Mojo]
Hutzal Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Hollywood. (Canadian @ <3)
just like butttteeerrr.
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#206541 - 05/02/08 12:05 AM Re: Single M22 as a center [Re: Hutzal]
donaldekelly Offline
local

Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 274
Loc: Washington, DC
I have a center M2 and 2 M22s. I miss the bass in the M2 which carries so much dialog and other sound. I wish I had a center M22 or 150. The M2s don't have much bass and they sound a little shrill by comparison to the M22s I think.

I haven't really done much comparison - never heard a 150 so I can't say for sure. Just my impression.


Edited by donaldekelly (05/02/08 12:05 AM)
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#206545 - 05/02/08 12:44 AM Re: Single M22 as a center [Re: donaldekelly]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7221
Loc: Canada
From the specs, the M2 goes lower than either of the VPs.
_________________________
Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#206563 - 05/02/08 05:36 AM Re: Single M22 as a center [Re: fredk]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10400
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Or you could look at the in room response specs of the VP150 @ 50hz and the little M2 only 60hz.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#206583 - 05/02/08 10:30 AM Re: Single M22 as a center [Re: jakewash]
Hutzal Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Hollywood. (Canadian @ <3)
 Originally Posted By: jakewash
Or you could look at the in room response specs of the VP150 @ 50hz and the little M2 only 60hz.


Chances are anyone using an M2 will cross it over to the sub at 80hz, so this is a non-issue.
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#206655 - 05/02/08 03:06 PM Re: Single M22 as a center [Re: jakewash]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7221
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
in room response specs of the VP150 @ 50hz

What am I missing? What I saw was the +-3db specs showing the 150 at 95Hz-22kHz and the M2 at 70Hz to 22kHz.
_________________________
Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#206657 - 05/02/08 03:24 PM Re: Single M22 as a center [Re: fredk]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10400
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Look below that spec and you will see the +3/-9 specs which is the in room specs I was looking at, it shows the VP150 getting lower.

The Audyssey on the 3808 sets my VP150 to 60hz for its crossover, so I think 50 is pretty close for an in room response.

Either way it doesn't matter as has been stated, most people with that small of a speaker or the VP series would set the XO to 80 for both speakers in question.
_________________________
Jason
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TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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