Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion The Water Cooler Reommendatios for a compact pistol

I know there are some gun enthusiast on the board so let me ask. What would be a good compact semi auto. I would want to stay compact with something that has descent stopping power. I have looked at the Bersa .380 and the Taurus compact 9. I would like to stay under $400 as I am also looking for a 38 snub nose.

I don't want this to be an argument about gun rights or the such so if you don't have any good input please don't reply.

Are you planning on getting a permit to carry, or just keep it at home?

Save your money and buy more Axiom stuff.

I have a S/W compact 9mm with pre-ban magazines that I love. I'm going to sell it though as I don't really carry very often anymore, and I have a S/W snubnose .38 that works well for occasional carry.

From my "I want to be just like Bridgman" series, it's obviously the middle one!

It will be a home defense piece, Il. does not allow CC. I like the Smith but from what I have seen it is above my price. Maybe I can find one used.

I would like a gun. But unfortunately I live in Calif., I think I would need a permit just to carry a picture of a gun, as far as actually owning a handgun I'm not quite ready to give up my first born child.

Yeah, NH is easygoing in comparison to other states....

Rick, for home defense, why look for a compact pistol? I would go for the reliabilty and simplicity of a largish revolver for stopping power and "ease of use" at 3AM.....

Mark, I already have a Taurus model 669 .357 with a 6 inch barrel. For home defense I use Federal Hydroshocks in it. I want the compact just in case we do get CC, I want to be ready .

HomeDad,

"I would like a gun. But unfortunately I live in Calif., I think I would need a permit just to carry a picture of a gun"

Now, THAT'S funny!

Wid,

Hmmmm, having second thoughts about our 'Midwest fest'

defense, didn't you take Karate once.

Mark, is the bottom pistol a 686?

Well, I can't offer anything for insight... I live in Canada where we don't have the terms "compact" (translates here to Prohibited) and "home defense" which translates here to "unlawful storage."

For me to use a handgun for home defense, I'd have to go unlock the cabinet, unlock the trigger lock, unlock the ammo stored away from the handgun, load it, then I'd be ready.

As it stands, I'll just throw my clock radio at you instead.

Before anyone gets any ideas - long gun storage is less tight, so if need be, whatever's on my cleaning stand from the week's shooting may be at hand, instead... and all those are made to put bigger things than you in my freezer.

Not something I live in fear of... only been one "home invasion" around here I've heard of... and that was a teenager opening someone's door to ask for help for his friend that was beaten up in the lane.

Bren R.

Yup.

Work out at the gym every day, and you'll get two fine guns you'll never need to reload.

Rick, of course the "stopping power" of any handgun is quite limited and movie scenes where the bad guy is blown backwards when shot have no connection with reality. Location is always the key point. That being said and although my own smallest gun is a .32 Beretta, I'd think that the minimum advisable for even a possible pocket pistol would be a .380. Consider the new Ruger LCP and also the Corbon DPX load.

By the way... why are you looking specifically at a semi-auto over a revolver? Smaller size? If it's going to be something kept loaded for an extended period of time and you absolutely, positively have to stop something (can't say someONE) in their tracks... a DA revolver is a much better choice... no feed issues, no "rack tap bang" to clear a F-t-F... just pull the trigger again.

Bren R.

I owned a Ruger in .40 years ago, nice gun. No particular reason for the auto Bren. You are right about the simplicity of the revolver though, I am also considering that option.

Anyone else picturing Dan kissing his biceps as he typed that?!

Oh, yeah!!!

All things considered, I really like the .40 S&W as a handgun cartridge... and if I shot primarily factory loads, I'd probably own a Sig P226 in .40S&W... just hard to beat .38 Spec. for ease of finding ammunition.

Bren R.

I picked up a couple of pieces yesterday. One is a Kahr CW 40. The other is a Smith and Wesson 642. I pick them up on Tuesday as we have a 3 day waitng period on handguns. The Smith I got used for what I thought was a good deal.

I went a tad over budget but that's ok, they are both quality pieces.

'3 days?! But I'm mad now!'

Great choices, Rick! If your original budget limit had allowed, I definitely would have suggested a Kahr, probably the PM9 or CW9.

Nice choices although my preference for home defense is a 12ga pump shotgun with a smoothbore slug barrel and modified rear stock.

When I took the 5 day handgun class from FrontSight a few years ago the instructor recommended using something that starts with at least a 4. .40SW .45ACP etc. They just have more stopping power than a 9mm or .380 However, I do like DG56's idea of the 12ga.

The percentage of home invasions on PEI where a gun was involved has to be somewhere in the fractional range of a hundred, maybe even in the thousands of a percentile. I kid you not. Not saying we don't have any crime but home invasions with a firearm is almost unheard of.

Just in case I've marked myself as an easy target, you best bring that gun as I'm pretty handy with my tonfa, or sia. My kama are pretty scary to look at also but the blades are only wooden so hopefully it will be dark and you won't notice. heh heh. Of course, I'd actually have to remember where I last put them so please take your time.

The Sig 229 DAK in .40 S&W will give you stopping power and the smaller size you're looking for - but it's almost twice the budget. Accuracy can't be beat and the DAK trigger will help prevent mis-fires from the adrenaline fed, itchy trigger finger one acquires at 2AM when a loud, unexpected noise is heard in the house. And no I'm not talking about the gun going off.

Scott

Again, I'm Canadian... it's illegal storage to have a firearm ready to go in case someone breaks in in the night (also, something I don't live in fear of). I'm a target shooter (new to pistols, though)... and I'm a big fan of the light, dull (ie: not sharp) recoil of the .40 S&W for "service pistols." Not even god himself can shoot a 9mm accurately and .45 factory loads don't win you any friends at the indoor range and your wrist will hate you.

My opinion - yours will vary.

Bren R.

That reminds me of a day I was at the indoor range shooting my Colt Commander .45. Man all of a sudden there was this huge boom right next to me, holy crap it was loud. I look over and this ol boy was shooting a .50 Desert Eagle. That was the loudest handgun I have ever encountered. The damn thing scared the crap out of me.

I thought the .45 and the .357 Mag was loud but this beat the cake.

Have you seen the youtube skinny wifey shooting the Desert Eagle? If not, here it is ... What's up with the guys T-shirt, anyway?

Oh man, that is hilarious

Agree on the .45 But I had a SIG 228 in 9mm that would hold groups under 2" at 25 yards all day long. Looking for better?

Scott

I've never owned a 9 but that was my intention this time around. As it goes I didn't stick to the plan and got the Kahr 40. I was able to get a few rounds through it yesterday and so far I am quite pleased.

Well, I'll just say I could definately open that up for you... get you up to about 4" at least.

No one is undecided about the 9mm parabellum. You like it or you hate it. I keep an open mind about it, and get offered 9mm chamberings to shoot all the time by guys trying to make me like it. I get better scores out of .38, .40 S&W, .357, .44 mag and .45 ACP than I do out of 9mm. Again, these are my findings - I do not shoot the 9mm parabellum very well, nor have I personally seen someone shoot it exceptionally well.

That's not to say it's impossible... I'm just going by my own experience.

Bren R.

I'm with you, Bren. I am currently taking a serious look at a Sig 229 DAK in .40 S&W. Back when I had the 228, I also had access to a Glock in 9mm and couldn't hit the broad side of a barn by comparison. Regardless of caliber I think it boils down to feel. You are either very comfortable with a weapon or you fight it. The 228 was very natural for me to hold whereas the Glock just didn't feel as comfortable and I struggled to fight it's natural aim point.

Scott

All I can say is that I would love to own a desert eagle...

For one box of ammunition. They seem to be one of the most bought and resold pistols around... they're not accurate at all, even the baby eagle is punishing (I've never actually shot the 50 Action Express version, but I've held one - like holding a 1911 plus a big can of beans in the same hand) and if you're looking to go down to a Mk VII in .44 Mag, you can get a better pistol for a lower price...

The Duke Nukem/Tom Clancy games and various movies glorify them but they're really no fun to shoot on a regular basis.

On the revolver side, there's the S&W Model 500 - people gather around it at the range, but no one ever wants to shoot more than a round or two out of it. After the first shot I took with one... even with a light load and holding it Chapman hold... I kept thumbing it for the second shot, so I just unloaded it and handed it back. No sense wasting a shot.

Again, my opinion...

Bren R.

What does a box of ammo for either the Desert Eagle or the S&W 500 go for? Must be outrageous.

Well, The Israeli Special Forces use the Desert Eagle as their primary infiltration weapon. Even 120lb women. Must be a decent gun I would think...

I believe it's around $40 for a box of 20.

Depends on what you look for in a gun. It got its start made by IMI, so Isayeret is buying locally at least... and if you're standing 7 feet away from someone you desperately need to put a big hole in, you're probably not going to be worried about a gritty trigger, a coarse sight picture, unmanageable recoil, muzzle flash that takes away your night vision and an ear-splitting report.

I'm not often in that position, so it's just a big glorified hammer to me. After a box full of ammunition and a satisfied grin about how much big bang you just made, you get brought down to earth by the fact you've just stretched out your ligaments for a grouping you can get from an autoloading shotgun with slugs.

Bren R.

50AE is $31.00 for 20 rounds right from Magnum Research themselves.

.500 S&W from Midway is all in the $40-$45 dollar range... with the standard bullet loadings being boxes of 20 and the "hunting" bullet (Corbon, etc) loadings being boxes of 12.

Bren R.

I keep an aluminum bat by my bed for unwanted visitors. (I prefer the ring they make when hitting bone over wood). The handguns and riffles are out in the open for anyone to use, if they can find the ammo. My kids were taught how to shoot along with gun safety at a very early age so I don’t worry about them using poor judgment. My 14 year old boy can shoot a pop can off a branch standing without a rest at 100 yards with his 30-06. I don’t hide or lock up the booze either. I just teach the kids what it can do to you if consumed in excess (by example). They have no desire to be an idiot so they don’t sneak the booze and they don’t feel the desire to “play” with any of the firearms because they can use them all, very well.

Rick, the 40 is a great caliber for auto and with hollow points, will put down whatever two legged varmint you hit in a way that they won’t be bothering you anytime soon. I shoot a Beretta in that caliber (pre-ban, Israeli made). My other pistol is a Ruger Super Red-Hawk 44 mag with a 7.5" barrel. I take that with me when I venture out in the bush for bear protection. If a big griz decides he wants to eat me, I'll just use the 44 on myself.

A buddy of mine has a 600 Smith with a 4” barrel. Loudest, most obnoxious thing to shoot I’ve ever held. I think they are for men to buy who feel some need to compensate for something…… Why anyone would want to fire anything larger than a 44 mag is behond me.....

Could this be why? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFJjaj7pXsA&feature=related

I am not a handgun expert. I don't even own a handgun, just a couple of my father's shotguns that have high sentimental value for me. Personally I don't really see a need for handguns, but I was raised to respect and understand firearms and to respect the rights of others to own them. While I know how to handle a shotgun, I've shot just a handful of handguns in my life.

With that disclaimer out of the way....

One of my father's friends used to own a Walther PPK that he'd occasionally bring out when we'd go hunting. That's the same gun that James Bond uses, if the name sounds familiar.

It's been a long time, but I remember that it was a really slick little gun. I have no idea if they have problems or are junk, but I just remember that it was very small, very easy to handle, and was really fun to shoot. I enjoyed it a whole lot more than my dad's Colt .45, or another buddy's .38 revolver. I've always thought that if I ever decided I needed a handgun, that it would be the one I'd research.

Just my $.02 on the subject.

Rick, I'm in Illinois too. I've always just had my FOID card for the shotguns. Do handguns work differently in Illinois? Do we have any concealed & carry laws here? I've never really thought about it but have alwys been curious. This thread has re-spakred that curiosity and I figure that you would probably know!

No Peter there is no CCW here in IL. Handgun laws here are more strict, and illegal in some cities, than are long guns.

I had the pleasure of shooting my neighbors Red Hawk. It was a darn good shooting revolver, I would love to have one.

Ruger Redhawks (and the single action Blackhawks) are nice revolvers... especially the older ones.

I've had a chance to shoot quite a few of each.

Bren R.

Now that I have a couple of nice compact handguns I am now looking to pick up a nice .22 to plink with. So far my candidates are the Rugar MKIII, the Browning Buckmark and the Beretta Neo. Any other suggestions are welcome.

Rick, you've rounded up most of the usual suspects and personally I'd go with ye old reliable Ruger, especially this one .

Suppose that I should also mention one of my favorite law firms, Smith&Wesson, and their 22A .

Then, since I'm fond of Wolverines, the Olympic Arms can be looked at.

Sorry to slam the door on you JohnK... the Ruger Mark III 22/45 is complete crap. It's billed as a "1911 Trainer"... but it's gritty and grotty and a pain to strip - and no 22LR will "train" you for a 1911, they just took the worst part of the layout of it (the near 90 degree "rake"). They're showing up at the range at an alarming pace these days... I've had the chance to fire a few and yeeeeech... I'd rather just hold the .22 with a pair of pliers and hit it with a ballpeen.

I have a Mark III target (this one) with a 5.5" bull barrel. A lot of people online complain about how hard it is to strip as well, but after the first few times, I can completely empty and replace everything in the frame in about 60 minutes (including cleaning time). The stock trigger, sear, hammer and bolt release really stink... but Rimfire Sports has an accurizing kit for it (which I'm finding has to be done to just about any new firearm these days). Honestly, the internals are a bit Rube Goldberg, but that's the lawyers creating that problem.

I like the Mark III target... I hate the 22/45 Mark III (feels like shooting a hockey stick)... and for the price, hard to beat... unless you can find a good Model 17 or High Standard used.

If you do get one of the Mark IIIs, PM me on how to remove the magazine disconnect... it's a colossal pain in the rectum.

My .02 - YMMV.

Bren R.

Speaking of High Standard my neighbor has a HS Duramatic M101. It's in fair condition and he tells me it shoots well. He wants $150 for it......what do ya think?

Shoot it... if it's not shot out, it's probably worth it... (hard to say, pistols seem to hold their value better here in Canada than there where there are more on the secondary market)... mainly I'd say "shoot it" and it it shoots well, I'd say it's worth it.

It is a "base model" from before I was born... so, remember to consider that... old = good solid build usually = maybe hard to find parts?

Bren R.

I think I'm going to take a pass on the HS and go look at the Rugar. Taking a change on a 50 year old firearm being reliable long term doesn't seem to be the best choice.

Rick, just wondering if Bill RugEr might be doing a few barrel rolls in his grave over this thread, with Bren's unusual comments about the typically superb 22/45. Incidentally, one of the main factors in suggesting that specific model was the more upright grip angle, which feels a bit better to my hand, and may be more consistent with your Kahr, regardless of whether any "training" for the M1911 is needed.

I made it to the gun shop and did get a chance to hold a few different models of the MK3. The one that felt best in my hands was the MKIII512 target model with a 5 1/2" bull barrel. I liked the feel of the all steel frame as compared to the composite frame on the 22/45. I'm having a scope (2x) mounted on it and bench tested before I pick it up. I hope to get some rounds through it next weekend.

Certainly a fine choice, Rick, if you prefer the feel of the grip.

Bren, on the mag disconnect, maybe consider something like this .

I ordered one of these to help make loading a bit easier. I read a few reviews on this product and it is suppose to work great.

Well, in my opinion, Willy B. Ruger pooped the bed on the 22/45. I've shot and liked the Mk II in various incarnations, the Mk III Target and Hunter, the 10/22 & 10/17, the Mini-14, the GP-100 series (some day I'll probably own a GP-161) and the P90 (actually, it was the stainless KP90). But everyone has a misstep occasionally - I believe Ruger did with the 22/45 series.

I don't really "get" a pistol that combines the chunky and clunkiness of a service pistol with the lack of power of the .22LR cartridge, y'know?

Like putting a 1.2 L engine in a Town Car and marketing it as "all the awkward handling of a land yacht with the lack of power of a subcompact"...

You like it, and that's cool... more power to you - I really don't... to the point that I have a strong opinion against it...

As for the aftermarket magazine disconnect parts, you can just remove it and make up a brass shim to take up its place on the hammer pin, slip a hammer shim between it and the hammer to minimize soft metal to metal contact and you'd be golden.

Bren R.

I had my first chance to hit the range today with the Rugar MK3. I had my share of problems for sure. First I had a few FTF with the Remington bulk ammo. Second I had more duds than I thought was possible, what crappy stuff it was. I will never buy that stuff again. I think the FTF was because of the position of the first round, I think I had them to flat not allowing for a proper feed.

When the ammo worked the pistol shot extremely well. Now if I can only work on my skills to match what the pistol is capable of. So I am pretty pleased with the Mk3, I only need to figure out what it likes to be fed. I hear CCI and Winchester wildcats work well so I'll give them each a try.. Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Now to cleaning the darn thing. Disassembly was a cake walk, no problems. Cleaning went well too. Assembly was mostly smooth except when it was time to put the main spring back in. I tried and tried and tried again to no avail. Every time I went to close it the darn thing it would just pull back out. I remembered I bookmarked this on youtube and it explained one step that finally worked. I wasn't getting the hammer far enough forward to get the hook on the mainspring back in place. Once I watched this video and it showed what I was missing it was a piece of cake after that.

I hope to try some different ammo this coming weekend so any suggestions would be great.

Yeah Rick, you might try these or even these . Incidentally, if you've tried the CW40 or 642 yet, what loads are you using/considering there?

I shoot Federal Gold Medal through my Mark III target most of the time. It also fires American Eagle just fine. The real expensive boutique ammunition is lost on me and my pistol skill, I save that $0.19/round stuff for the rifles where 32ths of an inch of group size means something.

Remington rimfire primers are probably the worst of the lot. And I can say that being that my "plinking" ammo of choice in my 22LR rifles is Remington Golden Bullet 40gr round nose. The dead primer ratio (and the "dead primer spot - the ones you can turn 90 degrees and get a primer hit on) is probably the worst I've seen in any ammunition manufacturer. If it wasn't for the fact my rifles love loading the stuff (as long as it's not hollowpoint) I'd probably give it a huge thumbs down.

Just remember to stick to standard and low velocity rounds in your pistol... no sense hammering the hell out of the bolt stop pin (which also happens to be a part of the mainspring housing) with hyper velocity ammo.

Bren R.

I'm going to pick up a box of different loads and see what feeds best. The ones that won't work will give me an excuse to get a .22 rifle

John, I have tried a few different loads with the Kahr. Lets see, Winchester White box, Eagle by Federal, Federal Hydrshocks and some Winchester Lawman. The little Kahr has performed flawless, I love that gun. With the 642 I have done some Winchester and Federal with out a problem. That is my nightstand piece, it a nice little wheel gun.

6 shot S&W 357 magnum revolver will never jam. Very loud. I suppose the ultimate home defense appliance is a shot gun. The unmistakable sound of racking a shell should send all but the most insane home intruders running for the nearest exit.

Has any one on this board has ever had the misfortune of a home intruder while you were home? If you weren't home, then your gun is now probably in the night table of some burglar.

Right, 2x6; the revolver still has a reliability and simplicity factor that even the best semi-autos loaded with the best ammunition can't quite match. Sure, for strictly home defense where size of the weapon isn't necessarily a major factor, a pump-action shotgun loaded with number 3 or 4 buckshot is close to ideal.

Rick, as to Federal ammo, if you haven't studied the tests on the HST loads , including their wound ballistics data, it appears that this may be the best personal defense stuff available at this time.

There's an untapped market there. I'm thinking a home alarm system that plays back the sound of a pump-action shotgun loading a shell about 20 seconds after the intruder enters the property.

That's always the part in the movie where I laugh... the scary chi-chick sound of a pump action SG racking being used as a deterrent.

It's a bold move... if it works, the guy runs for the hills... if it doesn't, you've just given up your position, weapon at hand and the element of surprise.

Like they teach in self defence courses... you should never tip your hand... don't pull the hi-ya-kung-fu crap if you do know it, don't wave around a knife or collapsable baton if you have it... they should learn what you have/are capable of at the very moment when using it becomes unavoidable, and not before.

Bren R.

design revision: the alarm will make the shotgun loading sound from behind the couch, in the hallyway, and from the kitchen.

I decided to pick up the High Standard pistol I was talking about earlier. I have tried to find disassembly instructions to the Dura-matic with no results. I did find the owners manual but it doesn't have field stripping instructions with it.

I'll ask at the range tonight... see if anyone there has information I can scan and PDF for you or something.

Duramatic M101, correct?

Also, give HS a call... all firearms manufacturers will send out any lit you want and they have on any of their products.

Bren R.

Thanks Bren. Yes it's the Duramatic M101.

Called HS and all they have is the owners manual. The gunsmith @ Gander Mountain was of no help either other than them wanting $60 for a cleaning

Rick, at least this was available, if you haven't seen it.

I couldn't get the link to work John. This is what I found.

No luck at the range, two guys offered for you to bring it in and they'd show you (then had to explain you were in the US)... but nothing in print.

Bren R.

Rick, the link,to http://www.histandard.info/manuals/dura/0245D150R.pdf still works for me. It's similar, but a little more detailed(e.g. removing the slide)than what you found.

It looks like that might work John, thanks. I have it bookmarked.

On another note, I read so many times how hard the Rugar MK3 was to put back together it almost kept me from buying it. It is a bit more involved than some of the others I have taken a part and put back together but it is by far not as hard as is perceived on the net.

Yeah, and how 'bout them 1954 prices!

I know I was checking them out. Some of those same models are going for big $$ right now.

It's not bad... a few things are a little counter-intuitive, it honestly took me 2+ hours the first time to completely frame-strip, clean and reassemble it, but I'm always very careful about how I remove things until I know what's got spring tension or holds another part in a hidden way and I know all the parts like the back of my hand.

Bren R.

I have no plans on stripping it to the frame but field stripping isn't bad at all.

No, not at all...

Drop hammer, open mainspring housing latch, lift out and pull down, reach in with a dental pick and pull the hammer spur away from the frame, remove bolt, hold grip, pull barrel forward and off.

To reassemble - do the reverse, remembering to put the hammer all the way back before putting in the bolt, and then raising the hammer up (with the trigger pulled) before putting in the mainspring housing and making sure to tip the barrel facing up while you lock in the latch again.

I usually disassemble the bolt (easy to do - spring fit) and firing pin (drift out the one roll pin) every second time I have it apart, and do the full down-to-the-frame strip and clean maybe once a month (especially since the trigger return spring and nub get coked up pretty quick giving you a gritty trigger)

I also don't use cleaning rods and jags, I clean everything but my inline with boresnakes.

Bren R.

This part is easy, I get that. I was saying I don't plan a total off frame cleaning anytime soon. Maybe in time.

I did get a boresnake, pretty nice piece of equipment. I just normally go by the usual cleaning methods I use on my other firearms (bristle brush and cleaning patches) I have read not to over use the brush on a .22 as it can damage the barrel but if the manufacture says it's ok I don't see how it can harm it.

Well, there are three main types of brushes...

"Brass" (actually phosphor bronze) brushes are the norm - they're soft enough to not damage the bore, yet stiff enough to work out powder and copper fouling.

Stainless steel brushes work incredibly well in removing even the most caked in fouling, but since they're made of a harder material than the bore, they leave microscratches in it. (except Hoppes' Tornado brushes which use the edges of a helix shaped brush to clean instead - these work very well and are non- or not very damaging).

Nylon brushes I've never really had any luck with... they're good to use with copper solvents (since phosphor bronze brushes get eaten by the solvent) but I find they're either too stiff to easily work the bore with, or too soft to do a good scrubbing job.

The main problem with traditional rod & patch/brush cleaning is the rod... if you clean from the muzzle end... it is very easy to damage the crown, and no matter what end you clean from, letting the rod run along the lands of the barrel is damaging as well. You should really use a bore guide that keeps the rod as centered as possible in the bore to minimize scraping it.

Also, those cheap 3-piece aluminum rods are good for carrying in your field/range box, but they flex too easily for day to day use... I use boresnakes for most cleaning... if I have to do anything that requires a rod, I have Tipton carbon fibre rods for the rifles - thin one for .17 and .22, thicker one for fullbore and a straight steel one for .50 and shotguns.

As for how often to clean - there are as many timelines as there are shooters. I must be doing something right, half the people say I do it too often, the other not often enough.

Bren R.

I'm picking up the High Standard tomorrow. I'll try to get some pics once I get it all cleaned up. If my research is correct, I think it is, the pistol was made between 1955 and 1959.

Well here it is, after a good cleaning. It took a good couple of hours to get it really cleaned up.










I'm pretty pleased with how good a shape it turned out to be. I inspected the frame and it looks like all is well. The only thing that was a bit difficult was getting the barrel lug to turn. A spay of WD40 did the trick.

John, thanks for the link to the instructions, they worked great.