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#221503 - 09/18/08 05:30 PM I hate compression
INANE Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/04/04
Posts: 1668
Loc: Omaha, Nebraska
http://gizmodo.com/5051435/audio-enginee...guitar-hero-iii

I don't like Metallica but this article pissed me off... so many albums just sound like crap because of compression. WTG video games!?

oh ya... hey I'm back from the dead!

/waves
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#221504 - 09/18/08 05:39 PM Re: I hate compression [Re: INANE]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17782
Loc: NoVA
Guess I'm going to have to look for the GH3 version somewheres...
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#221505 - 09/18/08 05:47 PM Re: I hate compression [Re: Ken.C]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13337
Loc: Iowa
Wow, that is crazy, but I'm not suprised.
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#221577 - 09/19/08 01:45 PM Re: I hate compression [Re: SirQuack]
INANE Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/04/04
Posts: 1668
Loc: Omaha, Nebraska
...ok were the forums having issues yesterday cause I swear I posted this in the water cooler... and adjustments I made to my sig didn't show up today.

:P
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HT v2.0 !
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#221593 - 09/19/08 03:20 PM Re: I hate compression [Re: INANE]
terzaghi Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 4848
Loc: Tulsa, Oklahoma
Yeah, I saw on xbox360 that I can download the entire album for GH3.. I just might do that, and then if I want to listen to the album i can just go into practice mode and play each song and set the guitar down:)
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#222696 - 09/26/08 05:33 PM Re: I hate compression [Re: terzaghi]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17782
Loc: NoVA
Anyone know if you can purchase the GH3 version without owning GH3? I don't have a game console, and I don't really want to buy it for the PC due to space/time issues, but I do want the good sound.
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#222707 - 09/26/08 06:39 PM Re: I hate compression [Re: Ken.C]
terzaghi Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 4848
Loc: Tulsa, Oklahoma
I highly doubt it, BUT i heard rumors of people somehow ripping the songs off of GH3 and trying to send them out via torrents.

not sure how anyone would copy them from the game or what format the would end up in...

If you were really interested I am sure that a google search for gH3 metallica torrent. if you do find it maybe you could send a check to metallica or something so you won't feel so bad

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#222710 - 09/26/08 07:00 PM Re: I hate compression [Re: terzaghi]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17782
Loc: NoVA
I figured I'd just buy the CD anyway, but...
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#222711 - 09/26/08 07:03 PM Re: I hate compression [Re: Ken.C]
terzaghi Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 4848
Loc: Tulsa, Oklahoma
Well, I would think if you buy the CD then you would have the legal right to download the songs in any format you want... despite the fact that it is a version from a game.

I am no lawyer though so thats just a guess \:\)
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#222712 - 09/26/08 07:05 PM Re: I hate compression [Re: Ken.C]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17782
Loc: NoVA
Tell me the CD sounds better than the tracks on this page.
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#222716 - 09/26/08 09:37 PM Re: I hate compression [Re: Ken.C]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16280
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
Sure. It will be CD quality compression instead of MP3-ized compression.
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#222914 - 09/29/08 08:35 AM Re: I hate compression [Re: pmbuko]
Murph Offline
axiomite

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 6835
Loc: PEI, Canada
Anyone remember the name of the free software that does graphical comparisons of songs. Results look just like the graphs in the original posted article. I love this forum but searching it is frustrating.

My nephew has what he thinks is the GH3 downloads of the new Metallica album but I'm not convinced. Sounds OK at best on his MP3 player but they are as bad or worse when played on my M60s. I think he downloaded just a bunch of MP3s somebody claimed to be GH3 rips. Might be fun to compare and see if my ears are correct.
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#222920 - 09/29/08 10:06 AM Re: I hate compression [Re: Murph]
terzaghi Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 4848
Loc: Tulsa, Oklahoma
Randy posted it a while back... forget the name. I have the software at home and will check it out when I get there.

I have the supposed GH3 rips in FLAC format now but have not had a chance to listen yet.
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#222948 - 09/29/08 01:05 PM Re: I hate compression [Re: terzaghi]
terzaghi Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 4848
Loc: Tulsa, Oklahoma
The program is called Audacity.

Here is a pic of song number 6, Cyanide, from the supposed GH3 rip in Flac format


Maybe someone can post the same image for the CD version for comparison.

The track was chosen at random, I can post others when I have time if needed.
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#222950 - 09/29/08 01:06 PM Re: I hate compression [Re: terzaghi]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17782
Loc: NoVA
That looks like the real deal, as there are actually peaks and valleys, and it's not slammed up to 1.0
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#222952 - 09/29/08 01:08 PM Re: I hate compression [Re: Ken.C]
terzaghi Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 4848
Loc: Tulsa, Oklahoma
song number 1 looks even better with less compression
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#222956 - 09/29/08 01:20 PM Re: I hate compression [Re: terzaghi]
terzaghi Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 4848
Loc: Tulsa, Oklahoma
song number one:

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#222960 - 09/29/08 02:36 PM Re: I hate compression [Re: terzaghi]
EFalardeau Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 08/27/07
Posts: 3270
Loc: Laval, Quebec, Canada
Oh! It's blue...
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#222961 - 09/29/08 02:40 PM Re: I hate compression [Re: EFalardeau]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17782
Loc: NoVA
Funny, the whole album is blue...
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#223000 - 09/29/08 07:35 PM Re: I hate compression [Re: Ken.C]
Rock_Head Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/10/04
Posts: 870
Loc: Delta, BC, Canada
The Blue Album?

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#223015 - 09/29/08 09:47 PM Re: I hate compression [Re: Rock_Head]
terzaghi Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 4848
Loc: Tulsa, Oklahoma
I would like to compare this GH3 version to the real album, both by listening and looking at the audacity waves...
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#223053 - 09/30/08 12:15 AM Re: I hate compression [Re: terzaghi]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17782
Loc: NoVA
I think there's a Youtube comparison of the two with audacity. Try this site.

T minus 1
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#223061 - 09/30/08 12:45 AM Re: I hate compression [Re: Ken.C]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11208
Loc: Richland, WA, USA

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#223062 - 09/30/08 12:50 AM Re: I hate compression [Re: CV]
St_PatGuy Offline
axiomite

Registered: 03/07/05
Posts: 7405
Loc: Glendale, Arizona
I think his ego has squeezed all his brains out of his cranial orifices.
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#223080 - 09/30/08 09:07 AM Re: I hate compression [Re: St_PatGuy]
myrison Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/03/08
Posts: 1898
Loc: Austin, TX
No kidding... he totally dodged the actual question. Smells fishy, especially when the lead engineer on the team that mastered the album (allegedly) said "I'm not proud to be associated with this one..."

Ouch.
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#223108 - 09/30/08 02:13 PM Re: I hate compression [Re: myrison]
Murph Offline
axiomite

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 6835
Loc: PEI, Canada
Thanks for name of software. I remembered a post full of such graphs but couldn't find it.
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#224012 - 10/05/08 10:28 PM Re: I hate compression [Re: Ken.C]
BlueJays1 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 4079
Loc: Porch,enjoying Bombay Sapphire
Metallica and compression have very much in common, they both suck. There early stuff was good but everything after their black album is a joke.
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#224018 - 10/05/08 10:42 PM Re: I hate compression [Re: BlueJays1]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17782
Loc: NoVA
Well, that's certainly an opinion you're entitled to. Others may have different ones...
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#224020 - 10/05/08 10:43 PM Re: I hate compression [Re: Ken.C]
St_PatGuy Offline
axiomite

Registered: 03/07/05
Posts: 7405
Loc: Glendale, Arizona
I like french fries!!!
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#224021 - 10/05/08 10:44 PM Re: I hate compression [Re: St_PatGuy]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17782
Loc: NoVA
You're not entitled to that opinion.
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#224023 - 10/05/08 10:51 PM Re: I hate compression [Re: Ken.C]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17782
Loc: NoVA
But seriously, I get tired of all the "Metallica sucks after x album" crap. Load seems to be the biggest target (although St. Anger really should be...). Load and Reload are absolutely fantastic albums musically. If you can get past the fact that it's Metallica (ie, that they don't sound like they used to) and just listen to the music, it's great. Interesting, layered, deep... and then they started listening to everyone while still holding onto Bob Rock, and made St. Anger. St. Anger shows some flashes of good music, but since it was all apparently assembled in Logic (the program) from jam sessions spanning years, it sounds like it. The fact that they decided to make it sound "garage" didn't help. I still enjoy listening to it sometimes, though.

Garage, Inc., although it's made up of covers, is also a great listen (and some of it is actually well mastered...). And S&M, while certainly a gimmick, is a very entertaining gimmick.

I haven't heard enough of the new album to pass any sort of judgement on it.
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#224024 - 10/05/08 10:51 PM Re: I hate compression [Re: Ken.C]
St_PatGuy Offline
axiomite

Registered: 03/07/05
Posts: 7405
Loc: Glendale, Arizona
Yeah, I copied someone else.


*sigh*
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#224025 - 10/05/08 10:52 PM Re: I hate compression [Re: St_PatGuy]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11208
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
 Originally Posted By: St_PatGuy
I like french fries!!!


The best thing about my brief excursion to New York City (was visiting an online friend in Connecticut at the time) was going to this place that served Belgian fries. I don't remember the fries themselves, but the sauces stood out. We tried probably a dozen different sauces, and they were all delicious. Does anyone here make their own fry sauces?

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#224026 - 10/05/08 10:53 PM Re: I hate compression [Re: St_PatGuy]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17782
Loc: NoVA
Addendum: Lars is out of his freakin' skull if he doesn't think the complaints about compression are worth answering. Also: everyone was right about Justice. It doesn't have any bass. Just because people still liked it doesn't mean it wasn't poorly mixed and/or mastered.
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#224028 - 10/05/08 10:55 PM Re: I hate compression [Re: Ken.C]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11208
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
I really hope the criticism for dynamic compression in these albums starts turning things around.

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#224035 - 10/05/08 11:12 PM Re: I hate compression [Re: CV]
BlueJays1 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 4079
Loc: Porch,enjoying Bombay Sapphire
Metallica was never known for audiophile quality recordings to begin with. The last album I owned was load and was not impressed with either the music or the quality of the recording, I can only imagine what the compressed version of Death Magnetic sounds like. Metallica has basically turned into a running joke with me.
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#224070 - 10/06/08 09:47 AM Re: I hate compression [Re: Ken.C]
myrison Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/03/08
Posts: 1898
Loc: Austin, TX
 Originally Posted By: kcarlile
Addendum: Lars is out of his freakin' skull if he doesn't think the complaints about compression are worth answering

I totally agree, some of the quotes from him about it seem nuts... he's a musician, you'd think this would be easily discernible to him (and concerning)... though maybe his eardrums are blown after all these years of rocking.

Jason
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#224644 - 10/09/08 01:10 PM Re: I hate compression [Re: myrison]
Murph Offline
axiomite

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 6835
Loc: PEI, Canada
I won't share the name because I'm stating an opinion he might not want shared but a rather famous old time rocker hangs out here in PEI for most of the year (escapes the winter) and I asked him his opinion on the whole Metallica sound issue. While he is very disappointed in the mixing trends that he saw developing over the lifetime of his career, what I found more interesting was largely to your point.

To quote him roughly...
"First I stayed out of the mixing booth because I didn't know anything about it. I just wanted to sing on records. Then I got heavily involved because I felt it was part of my artistic development. Then I realized I couldn't hear anything worth sh__ anymore so I stopped getting involved except to try and explain the sound we were looking for."

I suspect Lars is in the same boat. Timing is similar so neither would have worried about or been 'uncool' enough to protect their ears in the early parts of their career.
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#224645 - 10/09/08 01:31 PM Re: I hate compression [Re: Murph]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17782
Loc: NoVA
I seem to remember a public service announcement by some member of Metallica about 15 years ago about being deaf.
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#229300 - 11/10/08 01:57 PM Re: I hate compression [Re: Ken.C]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17782
Loc: NoVA
Hmm... so I've acquired what says it was the GH3 version, and I've been listening to it for awhile. I've come to the conclusion it still sounds terrible. Anyone else had better results? I've never tried the CD version (just bought it and stuck it on the shelf), so I don't know if I'm actually listening to that.
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#229303 - 11/10/08 02:28 PM Re: I hate compression [Re: Ken.C]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16280
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
Still sounds like it was squeezed out of the sphincter of an armadillo that was being crushed by a speeding semi truck. This comment only refers to the sound quality. Not the music quality.
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#229304 - 11/10/08 02:31 PM Re: I hate compression [Re: pmbuko]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17782
Loc: NoVA
OK, just wanted to be sure I picked up the right thing. I'm really enjoying the music.
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#229305 - 11/10/08 02:44 PM Re: I hate compression [Re: pmbuko]
St_PatGuy Offline
axiomite

Registered: 03/07/05
Posts: 7405
Loc: Glendale, Arizona
 Originally Posted By: pmbuko
Still sounds like it was squeezed out of the sphincter of an armadillo that was being crushed by a speeding semi truck. This comment only refers to the sound quality. Not the music quality.


Wasn't Bleeding Armadillo Sphincter the name of Negative Orange's rare CD compilation of outtakes and B-sides?
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#229306 - 11/10/08 02:56 PM Re: I hate compression [Re: St_PatGuy]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16280
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
Yes, and I still haven't been able to get the smell out of my car.
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#229307 - 11/10/08 03:00 PM Re: I hate compression [Re: pmbuko]
St_PatGuy Offline
axiomite

Registered: 03/07/05
Posts: 7405
Loc: Glendale, Arizona
, \:D
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***********
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#229346 - 11/10/08 07:18 PM Re: I hate compression [Re: pmbuko]
Rock_Head Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/10/04
Posts: 870
Loc: Delta, BC, Canada
Try some tomato juice and vinegar. It worked great when my friend''s golden retriever came across a skunk!

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#230756 - 11/20/08 12:08 PM Re: I hate compression [Re: Rock_Head]
Murph Offline
axiomite

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 6835
Loc: PEI, Canada
I agree that neither version has a great sound but you might want to be careful what GH III copy you picked up. There are a bunch of down loadable copies of this on Torrent sites and some are just rips directly from the CD, despite their claims.

Somewhere I posted asking for the name of Audacity software that allows you to , among many other things, graphically display a music file to compare things like compression. I wanted to compare my nephews, so called GH III version that sounded exactly the same to me as the CD version.

Audacity displayed them to be all but identical. So from there, we went online and downloaded another copy claiming to be of GH III origin and, this time, the graphs showed considerable difference.

As for audio on the authentic GH III version. I'd have to unscientifically say it sounded improved but I'm still not going to buy the CD or retain the GH II version. I'll stick to my old school Metallica CDs. They still sound crappy, but I like the songs better.
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#230760 - 11/20/08 12:26 PM Re: I hate compression [Re: Murph]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17782
Loc: NoVA
Hmm. Just did that with my copies, and they're not compressed to hell and back, so I guess I must have the real deal. I don't have my CD with me at work, so I can't check that (nor has it ever actually left the case), but I'll have to remember to bring that in and have a look.
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#230790 - 11/20/08 03:46 PM Re: I hate compression [Re: Ken.C]
Murph Offline
axiomite

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 6835
Loc: PEI, Canada
I'm still at work so I couldn't post the graphs to compare to yours so I went Googling for examples I saw on TG Daily or Maybe Engadget's sight.

I didn't find them after a quick look but I did find a bit of an interesting article about sound levels, dynamics, guitar hero and what should be the correct level of dynamics for rock music.

It caught my eye because he is trying to debunk people who say Guitar Hero versions are louder while most articles I've read argue the CDs are mixed to be interpreted as louder.

Another interesting item was this quote... Although he starts off describing how dynamics make music more "lively" and "energetic" he then contrasts his statement by saying some compression is required for the rock music genre.

"...the Guitar Hero version isn't perfect - far from it. In actual fact, it's a bit too dynamic for this style of music - rock requires a "wall of sound" effect..."

So, is this yet another sound engineer whose "wall of sound" way of thinking for rock music is killing our high fidelity buzz or is he the smart one who realizes a little bit of battery acid hot pepper sauce is good for the bigger pot?
or
do I just need to go home, have a beer and play some unquestionably well mastered Mark Knopfler.

[Edit]
After mentioning that maybe I should go home for beer, my brain shut down and I forgot the link to the article. Here it is. Not the best article I've read but I thought it might prove interesting with the above question in mind.

Rock requires a Wall of Sound


Edited by Murph (11/20/08 03:50 PM)
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#230887 - 11/20/08 11:32 PM Re: I hate compression [Re: Murph]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11208
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
I'm fine with a wall of sound without the extreme dynamic range of certain pieces of classical music, but I don't think there's any excuse for clipped waveforms.

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#237947 - 01/03/09 01:10 PM Re: I hate compression [Re: CV]
St_PatGuy Offline
axiomite

Registered: 03/07/05
Posts: 7405
Loc: Glendale, Arizona
I finally broke down and bought the new Metallica album--J&R Music had a sale on it for six bucks. Listened to it a couple of days ago and I must say I rather like it. Quality of sound issues aside, I'm so glad Kirk Hammett's guitar playing has been brought back to the forefront and the whole structure of the band's sound has been brought back to what we first loved--angry and complex. I can't help but think that the in-your-face compression actually works well with the constant attack of the music. . . I don't know, maybe not. . .

Anyway, thumbs up to the music!
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#237967 - 01/03/09 03:13 PM Re: I hate compression [Re: St_PatGuy]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17782
Loc: NoVA
I guess I should try listening to the actual CD, but..
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