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#223208 - 10/01/08 11:25 AM Emotiva's New Pre/Pro
SatKartr Offline
aficionado

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 608
Loc: Dallas

Details released here:

http://www.emotiva.com/news.html
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#223217 - 10/01/08 12:01 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: SatKartr]
CV Online   confused
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11212
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
Sounds pretty good for $699. Of course, it lists that price as being for "initial run," so I wonder what it will be afterward.

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#223219 - 10/01/08 12:03 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: SatKartr]
DaveG Offline
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Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 868
Loc: WI
Looks like nice unit at a good price.
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#223229 - 10/01/08 12:59 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: DaveG]
SatKartr Offline
aficionado

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 608
Loc: Dallas
I am leaning toward this, the Outlaw 997 will be twice as much, although clearly the Outlaw might be worth it if the Trinnov Optimizer is as good as they expect. The Trinnov model intrigues me because I prefer minimal EQ and tweaking it to my own idiosyncratic ear but on paper it's quite a concept and clearly has been successful/influential in commercial applications. Will it really be a "whole new level" of processing? The Emo pro looks like a very good processor at the level we are already on. Both companies are "hoping" for a December 2008 release for their new processors, but if the delays in the release of the Sherwood 972 are any indication, I would be very surprised if the Emo pro did not beat the 997 to market by several months.
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#223242 - 10/01/08 01:57 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: SatKartr]
cgolf Offline
devotee

Registered: 03/14/05
Posts: 340
Loc: Cypress, Texas
Just an fyi...I have all EMO equipment and although I have had a couple of problems that required their fix, I have enjoyed the sound, upgrades and quality tremendously. I have a LMC-1 and am anxiously awaiting the UMC-1 coming in December (hopefully??). I think they make great products, the price is fantastic but they are a newer company with some yet to be resolved bugs with manufacturing.

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#223243 - 10/01/08 02:13 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: cgolf]
SatKartr Offline
aficionado

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 608
Loc: Dallas
Thanks so much for the heads up, that's good to hear, it seems they have a level of quality that considerably exceeds the cost so I am willing to deal with a few issues especially because it is just about the most I can afford (a bit more than I should spend but that's my strategy for staving off buyer's remorse).

I'm listening at the moment to their 09/26/08 webcast re: the UMC-1 and they state that the UMC-1 is currently being tested in China, they will have a demo model at the Audioholics show in October, will do a pilot run in November, and begin production in December, so the time line seems promising.

They also state it's taken 2 1/2 years to get the UMC-1 to this point.

emo webcast
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#223247 - 10/01/08 02:28 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: SatKartr]
cgolf Offline
devotee

Registered: 03/14/05
Posts: 340
Loc: Cypress, Texas
The UMC concept started out as soon as the LMC-1 was released, probably even before. Originally it was the LMC-2 but was renamed UMC about a year ago. It will be an awesome processor with a very rich feature set. I have had their LPA-1 amp and currently have the XPA-5 amp and LMC-1 processor. Can't say enough good things about both pieces although my processor is on the way back to Emotiva for repair at this time. One thing we discuss on the boards is that we all see many of the issues and problems that people experience so sometimes it seems that there are a lot of problems with their products. Not really so. We just see and hear about them where you don't hear about the problems with most store bought electronics. I called the other day to get a return # and talked to Lonnie who is the president. We talked about his latest trip to China and the UMC processor. Where else can you do that?? I've been sold on their products since day 1.

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#223249 - 10/01/08 02:43 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: cgolf]
SatKartr Offline
aficionado

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 608
Loc: Dallas
Also good to know because I am thinking about/planning to go with the XPA-5 in addition to an XPA-2 or XPA-3 for a 7.1 system. I am trying to decide which to order first (XPA-5 or XPA-2) to try out with a stereo setup until I purchase the rest of the speakers and "need" the second amp.
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#223251 - 10/01/08 03:11 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: SatKartr]
Hutzal Offline
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Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Hollywood. (Canadian @ <3)
hmmmmm

I was going to order a Yamaha RX-V663 for my pre/pro (I already have the LPA-1 here, just waiting for my speakers to arrive).

But I have a question now, I will only have a 2 channel system right now, can I use the R/L audio output from the TV (which my dvd player is hooked up to) and hook those up to the amp for 2 channel? I wouldn't imagine the audio would suffer much going from the DVD player thru HDMI to the TV, to the audio out RCA jacks to the amp...

If I do this, i will be able to wait for the new pre/pro!

-Hutz
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#223257 - 10/01/08 03:24 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: Hutzal]
SatKartr Offline
aficionado

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 608
Loc: Dallas
I am doing that at the moment going from bluray/directv hd dvr via hdmi to TV RCA to my stereo Rotel amp and it sounds pretty good, that's why I am also thinking about waiting a couple of months for the UMC-1 rather than purchasing the RX-V663. You could also try stereo RCA direct from DVD to amp, that should sound good I would think, if the first solution does not.
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#223264 - 10/01/08 04:04 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: SatKartr]
Hutzal Offline
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Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Hollywood. (Canadian @ <3)
How do you control the volume? I just did some experiments and the only way to control the volume with the TV speakers off is through the headphone jack...I am thinking I will use a a 3.5mm to R/L RCA to the amp...but that might suck with such detailed speakers as the M80s...

Also, I have the HD-A20 HD DVD, you said you plugged your R/L audio out right into the amp, again, how do you control the volume? with your player?

-Hutz
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#223268 - 10/01/08 04:24 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: Hutzal]
SatKartr Offline
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Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 608
Loc: Dallas
Looks like I misspoke, my Rotel amp is actually an integrated preamp/power amplifier so it has a volume control.

In contrast the Emo amps are power amps only and the rep stated that the volume is controlled by the pre/processor so I believe you are right, sorry for the misinformation, and thanks for the clarification. The audio line out from all of the components other than the pre/pro is just set at a more or less standard "line level" (dvd is often less than hd dvr), which is not going to work.

I guess what I would need to do is run through the Rotel as a preamp and then route the signal to the Emo amp until processor arrives? Not sure but that might be a workable workaround for me, let me know if you find a solution.
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#223270 - 10/01/08 04:30 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: SatKartr]
SirQuack Offline
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Registered: 01/29/04
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The EMO MPS-1 I owned for 3 months kept shutting down when trying to drive 80's, hopefully, they have beefed up their protective circuitry in these new models.

Any reason your not looking at a regular AVR? If I recall, your room is not that large.
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M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
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#223272 - 10/01/08 04:48 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: SirQuack]
SatKartr Offline
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Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 608
Loc: Dallas
Just for clarity of sound, my room is around 7200 cu ft, I know a lot of people have good results with receivers so I would not go wrong with that approach, however, those with amps do seem to enjoy them. There are a lot of opinions but I guess with resident Axiom expert Alan Lofft recommending 250 wpc or more for my size room, I will feel better pursuing this approach, rather than always wondering and then trying it out later anyways, i.e., I believe it will actually cost less in the long run.
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#223273 - 10/01/08 04:50 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: SatKartr]
SirQuack Offline
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Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13337
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My room is 8,100 cu ft and I have monoblocks driving my 80's, however, my Denon 2805 by itself has plenty of power. Your only going to use a few watts most of the time, with brief peaks of maybe 100 watts.
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M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
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#223274 - 10/01/08 04:52 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: SirQuack]
Hutzal Offline
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Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Hollywood. (Canadian @ <3)
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
The EMO MPS-1 I owned for 3 months kept shutting down when trying to drive 80's, hopefully, they have beefed up their protective circuitry in these new models.

Any reason your not looking at a regular AVR? If I recall, your room is not that large.


I assume you are talking to me.

Well I went with a used LPA-1 since one of the peters on this board has M80s and an LPA-1 and he said he has not had any issues even when driving them extremely loud.

I sold all my old stuff when I moved to LA, so I am buying all brand new, for around $1100 I can have the LPA-1 and the new emo pre/pro. That's as much as the denon 3808, I would rather have separates than an AVR for the same price...makes sense I think?
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#223276 - 10/01/08 04:54 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: cgolf]
SatKartr Offline
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Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 608
Loc: Dallas
Cgolf, what front speakers do you have, are you using the XPA-5 to drive the M80s? Sirquack states that the MPS-1 had trouble driving the M80s, so I was wondering if you could possibly speak to that comparison.
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#223277 - 10/01/08 04:58 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: SirQuack]
SatKartr Offline
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Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 608
Loc: Dallas
Why do you use the monoblocks then? Does the setup sound better with the monoblocks in the mix? What are the monoblocks rated at in terms of power?
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#223282 - 10/01/08 05:18 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: SatKartr]
SirQuack Offline
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Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13337
Loc: Iowa
No Hut, why would you assume that, I was in conversation with SK
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M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
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#223283 - 10/01/08 05:24 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: SirQuack]
SirQuack Offline
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Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13337
Loc: Iowa
I have custom built Odyssey Khartago Extreme monoblocks just because of upgradeitis hit me. Amps amplify sound, they don't sound different. You will be able to play at much louder levels with no distress and have more headroom, however, most people don't listen that loud anyway, so AVR's are more than adequate for most people.

Rated power is not all that is important, people seem to get hung up on that, but I believe they are rated at 200watts each. Memory (capacitance), current delivery, damping factor, DC offset, toroid size, etc. to name a few are every bit as important.
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#223285 - 10/01/08 05:35 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: SatKartr]
cgolf Offline
devotee

Registered: 03/14/05
Posts: 340
Loc: Cypress, Texas
M60s in front with a VP150 center and QS8s as surrounds. My sub is an HSU VTF3.

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#223287 - 10/01/08 05:59 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: SirQuack]
Hutzal Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Hollywood. (Canadian @ <3)
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
No Hut, why would you assume that, I was in conversation with SK


my bizzad
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#223292 - 10/01/08 06:04 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: SirQuack]
SatKartr Offline
aficionado

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 608
Loc: Dallas
Good to know, thanks for the info. I know me and I know will be most likely be caught in a cycle of upgradeitis due to curiosity unless I get it out of my system now so I am shooting a little higher than necessary. Usually it works, the last "poor man's audiophile" stereo (store owner's terminology) I bought was around 1989 (i.e., amp and speakers unchanged) and I have been satisfied until now when our sd tv died and we upgraded to plasma hdtv.

I estimate with a cheap option like Emo or Outlaw at most it will cost less than $1k to go with separates over a good AVR and then I will never have to wonder and will anyway not even be able to afford to upgrade the amplification unless they come up with a killer must have feature like teleportation, so I can put that aspect of the project to rest and never have to think about amplification again for the next 5 to 10 or even 20 years, unless something breaks.

The other issue I have is that processors do require updating at times (e.g., I have a rotel cd player, an awesome sounding hk cd to cd recorder, a dvd player, dvd recorder, and now blu ray player, still don't even have an sacd player), so it irks me to pay a lot for a receiver with powerful amplification included that is costing me a lot when I may want to upgrade and then have to pay for the integrated amplification all over again when I could just upgrade the processor itself, that would actually wind up being an impediment to the upgrade path when the upgrade might actually make sense by allowing me to take advantage of all the latest formats and processing capabilities.

Thanks for the opportunity to think this through, I think that's the main point, if the processor is separate it will leave me more flexibility to upgrade as necessary without having to pay twice for powerful amplification without any added benefit other than for the manufacturer who will make more money.
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#223298 - 10/01/08 06:11 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: cgolf]
SatKartr Offline
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Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 608
Loc: Dallas
OK thanks, that leaves the question open: is anyone on the forum running the M80s with the XPA-5 or XPA-2 and having or not having good results?

Emo has a 30 day return policy too, guess it makes sense to wait until the M80s have shipped or are shipping to order the amp.
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#223299 - 10/01/08 06:17 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: SatKartr]
Warrant Offline
buff

Registered: 10/12/07
Posts: 49
Buy the 997 and the 7900, (BTW the 7900 is the same amp as the Lexicon ZX7) then forget about upgraditis (Rx Emla creme) until the EP800 arrives.

Take two ep800's and call me in the morning.

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#223300 - 10/01/08 06:37 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: Warrant]
SatKartr Offline
aficionado

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 608
Loc: Dallas
Sounds like a perfect prescription, except the 7900 would cost twice what the emo setup would cost and that definitely would propel me outside of my budget range, the 997 is exactly what I am afraid I am going to want even if I buy another processor but who knows when it will be available, their ETA appeared extremely soft.

Speaking of ETAs, are there any educated or uneducated guesses regarding when the EP800 might appear, given that we haven't even heard an official announcement from Axiom?
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#223308 - 10/01/08 07:08 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: SirQuack]
SatKartr Offline
aficionado

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 608
Loc: Dallas
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
I have custom built Odyssey Khartago Extreme monoblocks just because of upgradeitis hit me. Amps amplify sound, they don't sound different. You will be able to play at much louder levels with no distress and have more headroom, however, most people don't listen that loud anyway, so AVR's are more than adequate for most people.

Rated power is not all that is important, people seem to get hung up on that, but I believe they are rated at 200watts each. Memory (capacitance), current delivery, damping factor, DC offset, toroid size, etc. to name a few are every bit as important.


OK I confess abject ignorance regarding most of the additional factors you cite beyond rated power, factors that clearly must be related to the sharp differences in cost among various amplifiers having the same power rating, but do you mean to imply that none of these additional factors come into play except at high volumes in terms of affecting the sound?
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#223312 - 10/01/08 07:12 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: SatKartr]
myrison Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/03/08
Posts: 1898
Loc: Austin, TX
 Originally Posted By: SatKartr
Speaking of ETAs, are there any educated or uneducated guesses regarding when the EP800 might appear, given that we haven't even heard an official announcement from Axiom?


Within the next 2-3 weeks according to a new buyer who talked to Axiom support yesterday. Granted, that's second hand, but it's very recent info... looks like it's not going to be long.
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#223313 - 10/01/08 07:12 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: myrison]
myrison Offline
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Registered: 02/03/08
Posts: 1898
Loc: Austin, TX
And by the way... I'm planning on getting in line early! \:\)
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#223326 - 10/01/08 07:32 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: myrison]
SatKartr Offline
aficionado

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 608
Loc: Dallas
 Originally Posted By: myrison
Within the next 2-3 weeks according to a new buyer who talked to Axiom support yesterday. Granted, that's second hand, but it's very recent info... looks like it's not going to be long.


Now that's intriguing! I may wind up being happy I delayed the purchase!
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#223336 - 10/01/08 08:06 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: SatKartr]
Hutzal Offline
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Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Hollywood. (Canadian @ <3)
SatK,

Scout the emotiva forums before you buy the new XPA-5. There have been numerous red lights of death on various channels on the XPA-5, which is why I went with a used LPA-1 (exactly that reason actually). The LPA-1 is tried and true paired with M80s.
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#223338 - 10/01/08 08:17 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: SatKartr]
terzaghi Offline
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Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 4848
Loc: Tulsa, Oklahoma
cool, 5 hdmi inputs for that price?
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#223340 - 10/01/08 08:19 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: terzaghi]
Ken.C Offline
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Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17783
Loc: NoVA
That many problems with Emotiva stuff makes me leery about the brand, as much as I want a cheap amp. I know they've got quite a following, and that the owner is cool and stuff, but...

And if I read something like what I just said about Axiom, smoke would be coming out of my ears. Ah, the joys of being a hypocrite.
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#223341 - 10/01/08 08:35 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: Ken.C]
SatKartr Offline
aficionado

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 608
Loc: Dallas
I've been over on the av123.forum but haven't been able to identify the complaints in question. I do tend to agree with your analysis though, it seems to me a power amp should be more or less trouble free, it should not be that complicated to amplify a signal without imploding.


Edited by SatKartr (10/01/08 08:36 PM)
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#223343 - 10/01/08 08:59 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: Hutzal]
SatKartr Offline
aficionado

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 608
Loc: Dallas
Found a number of threads at the emotiva lounge and they state that the red light problem is just an initialization thing and is not a DOA problem, it happens once and is scary, but is cured by a blow dryer never to return (?).

I'm quoting one recent thread

"per Lonnie: In the dual differential and VAS stages, we use some extremely high bandwidth transistors (normally used in broadcast equipment). This is what gives the amp that really open and airy sound, as well as giving it lightning fast reflexes to reprpoduce all the nuances of the music. The tradeoff is that these transistors are more susceptible to static.

Due to the foam packing, static can generate during shipping, and even weather can affect that. If s static charge builds up in the amp this way, the base of a transistor can slightly turn on and start to conduct current in an idle state. The protect circuit will see this, and even though it is WAY down in the microamps of current, it will shut the amp down to protect your speakers.

Blowing air over the components for anywhere from 60 seconds to a couple of minutes will discharge the static an then it will wake up and run normally. Once the charge is gone, I have nevr heard of it returning, so you shouldn't have any future issues with it.

We're not sure why we've had a couple of these recently, but to prevent it, we're changing to an anti-static top covering bag on the amps."

Not sure if this is enough to put me off from pursuing cheap ostensibly quality amplification with a 5 year warranty, I'm still thinking of taking the gamble.
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#223367 - 10/01/08 09:54 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: SatKartr]
JohnK Offline
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Registered: 05/11/02
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Sure, Sat; if an amplifier delivers the 20-20KHz frequency range flat and with inaudibly low noise and distortion within its designed power limits, that's all that any amplifier can do as far as being audibly transparent and not adding a sonic coloration of its own. Doesn't matter whether it costs $100 or $100,000, and claims to the contrary haven't stood up when put to the(controlled blind listening)test.
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#223387 - 10/01/08 11:47 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: JohnK]
cgolf Offline
devotee

Registered: 03/14/05
Posts: 340
Loc: Cypress, Texas
No question, Emotiva has had some issues and some recurring issues. I've owned 3 different pieces and I've had a problem with 2 of the pieces. ! was fixed with no other problem and the other is on the way to be be fixed now after a year. Their producst work well but they are certainly not perfect but what manufacturer is. As much as I like their products, if I continue to have issues, I would go elsewhere. I want something that works and not something that I'm not ever sure of. So far, I'm still a follower but not a blind follower!!

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#223420 - 10/02/08 07:57 AM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: cgolf]
MarkSJohnson Offline
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Registered: 09/27/04
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I think Emotiva's stuff is great-looking, but it almost seems like they're a little too good to be true in that there does seem to be a higher percentage of incidents of some type of problem/failure. I don't know if it's because they're still working their kinks out or if they're trying to cut too much off the prices.

I'm really liking the idea of Outlaw's coming pre/pro, but to be realistic, I don't have much of a need for them.
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#223424 - 10/02/08 08:31 AM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: JohnK]
myrison Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/03/08
Posts: 1898
Loc: Austin, TX
 Originally Posted By: JohnK
Sure, Sat; if an amplifier delivers the 20-20KHz frequency range flat and with inaudibly low noise and distortion within its designed power limits, that's all that any amplifier can do as far as being audibly transparent and not adding a sonic coloration of its own. Doesn't matter whether it costs $100 or $100,000, and claims to the contrary haven't stood up when put to the(controlled blind listening)test.


To that point, if you have time, be sure to read this article from Stereo Review. This is admittedly a very old article, but it presents one of the only true blind listening tests in carefully controlled conditions of different amplifiers that I've seen. The results are very interesting.
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#223552 - 10/03/08 12:59 AM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: cgolf]
Hutzal Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Hollywood. (Canadian @ <3)
 Originally Posted By: cgolf
No question, Emotiva has had some issues and some recurring issues. I've owned 3 different pieces and I've had a problem with 2 of the pieces. ! was fixed with no other problem and the other is on the way to be be fixed now after a year. Their producst work well but they are certainly not perfect but what manufacturer is. As much as I like their products, if I continue to have issues, I would go elsewhere. I want something that works and not something that I'm not ever sure of. So far, I'm still a follower but not a blind follower!!


Which products? I am on the pre-order list for the UMC-1, but now I am starting to reconsider...
_________________________
Producer | Composer
www.robbhutzal.com

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#223576 - 10/03/08 09:52 AM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: Hutzal]
PeterChenoweth Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 1349
Loc: Jacksonville, IL
 Originally Posted By: Hutzal

Well I went with a used LPA-1 since one of the peters on this board has M80s and an LPA-1 and he said he has not had any issues even when driving them extremely loud.

Hey, that's me! \:\)

Yes, I have an LPA-1. I love it. I've had it for almost 2 years now powering my whole Axiom system. Bi-amped M80's (shush, it's the way I like it), VP150, and QS8's. I've not had any heat or shutdown problems. Whether 2 channel stereo or 5.1 movies. I crank it up and it's just loud and clear. It'll play far louder than is comfortable for my ears, so I'm perfectly content with it.

On the other hand, I also owned an LMC-1 for about 3 weeks. It was the buggiest piece of consumer electronics I've ever owned. Felt like an Alpha version. Constant problems of weird sound modes, forgotten settings, useless sound level checks, and occasional hissing or other weird background noises. I exchanged a dozen emails with Lonnie @ Emotiva at the time, and I have nothing but praise for him. He was very helpful. But in the end the 'frustration factor' was just too high for me and I returned it. I had a refund check from Emotiva in about 3 days. They actually issued the refund check within about 2 hours of the LMC being delivered to them, according to UPS tracking numbers. Now to be fair, the time period I owned the LMC was prior to the final firmware that was released. I have read that the LMC is much better on the final firmware. But I don't know from personal experience so I can't say.

But back to the first hand, I am on the preorder list for the UMC. I'm very eager to replace my ancient c2002 AVR with something that was made in an era of HDMI & HD. And the UMC's features and price fit my criteria well. Outlaw's 997 also looks like an wicked prepro too, but it's at a higher cost that's a bit out of my budget.

I expect that Emotiva has learned from their mistakes on the LMC and will do a better job on the UMC. They've certainly had enough time to work on it. And if they don't get it right, I have 100% confidence in their return policy.
_________________________
M80v2 | VP150v2 | QS8v2
SVS Pci+ 20-39
Emotiva UMC-1 & LPA-1
M22ti + T-Amp, in the Office

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#223577 - 10/03/08 10:27 AM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: Hutzal]
cgolf Offline
devotee

Registered: 03/14/05
Posts: 340
Loc: Cypress, Texas
The problems that Emotiva has had have been with the LMC-1 and some of the XPA-2 & 5 amps mainly. I had to send my LPA-1 in for work but it was fixed promptly. I have now sold it and own the XPA-5. No problems so far with it so far although some people have had blinking lights and bad channels. Don't know if that is a small percentage or more systematic.

I just sent my LMC-1 in for repairs after owning it a year. Funny thing is that I've read about 5 or more people whose LMCs have recently just done the same thing as mine. Coincidental? or is there a problem with some component that lasts a year and faults. Don't know.

As I said before, I really like their products and you can't beat their prices, service and warranty. I believe they have great owners and staff, have great products, R&D and engineering. I also believe that being on their forums allows you to see more of the complaints, issues and returns. People discuss them and you see them. Do they have more complaints & problems than other companies? Don't know, but I know I get concerned when I read about consistent problems. You don't see that here. How many times do we see a problem with an Axiom speaker? Occassionally but not very often. And the percentage for Emotiva is still very low too.

I'm on the preorder list for the UMC-1 and I'm very excited about it. My confidence level is still high but as I've said, I have had problems with 2 of the 3 pieces that I have owned. Both have been fixed quickly but I still had to send them in and do without for awhile.

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#223585 - 10/03/08 11:34 AM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: cgolf]
casey01 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 07/03/08
Posts: 768
Loc: Toronto
Emotiva has been going through some growing pains and they are adding to their product line quite quickly. I do, however, see that they have some pretty good people running the operation and I am sure they will be successful. It would seem in recent times that as the equipment gets more sophisticated along with the chips required to do the processing, problems can arise from time to time. Companies, like Emotiva and Outlaw have chosen to concentrate on separates as opposed to AVR's and as a result, pre-pros usually are more software based thus resulting in them potentially being a little more sensitive. They do, however, have the advantage, generally speaking, of being able to accept more downloads to correct any problems and/or add features. This is what impresses me about Oppo and their DVD players. I, myself, is going the separates route and I plan to buy either the forthcoming Outlaw 997 OR Emotiva XMC-1. Their feature/value set just can't be beat.

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#223844 - 10/04/08 03:54 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: SatKartr]
CV Online   confused
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11212
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
 Originally Posted By: SatKartr
Absence of proof of difference is not the same as proof of no difference. Even the surgeon general was 10 years shy of scientific proof that smoking was harmful or that a low fat diet was likely beneficial when he recommended against smoking and high fat diets.


For the sake of argument, can I suggest that those are a little more complex and harder to study? By all means, let's do more controlled listening tests, but how many do we need before we're satisfied with the results? It doesn't seem like it should take nearly as much research to decide what sounds good as opposed to how certain substances and diets affect our long-term health.

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#223852 - 10/04/08 04:17 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: SatKartr]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7057
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
It often takes millions of dollars if not decades to prove a particular point of scientific evidence


This is sort of like saying that because an 8 year old can't do statistics they also can't add 2+2.

Your example is based on complexity. For instance, if you listen to any nutritional scientist, they will tell you that nutrition is a vastly complex subject/issue, and that we have barely scratched the surface on the mechanics of indivitual nututrients let alone chemical/nutritional interactions between individual components.

Can you hear a difference is a 2+2 kind of problem. It dosn't take millions of dollars and years of effort to tease the answer out of complex data or interactions. All you need to do is switch between two components without the listener knowing which is which and ask, "Did you hear a difference?" This is a question that can be asked a number of different ways to guard against biased language.

On the other hand, if you believe whatever component makes the difference, spend your money and be happy. \:\)
_________________________
Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#223859 - 10/04/08 04:48 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: fredk]
cgolf Offline
devotee

Registered: 03/14/05
Posts: 340
Loc: Cypress, Texas
Don't ya just love it. What sounds better? What causes the sound to be different? Is it price, brand, separates, source, amp, processor,????? Is Blue Bell ice cream better than say Ben & Jerrys or Marble Slab? I think so but the next person doesn't. There are some "things" that do make equipment sound better (natural) but I don't have the answers. I know what sounds best to me based on what I've owned and heard. So far it's Emotiva but that could change tomorrow if I hear something else that sounds "better" to me. It's of course not as clear a choice as who you're going to vote for for president....... Or maybe that isn't clear yet either!!!

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#223865 - 10/04/08 05:11 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: SatKartr]
cgolf Offline
devotee

Registered: 03/14/05
Posts: 340
Loc: Cypress, Texas
Guess I'm just too simple minded. I have a very very basic understanding of how sound is reproduced, etc. but the truth is, I'm not that interested in learning more about that topic unless it helps me to make better choices on purchasing equipment, location of equipment, calibration, etc. I want the best sound I can get from the equipment that I have so knowledge that helps me there is important. I think it's like most every topic out there, we can discuss, argue, agree, etc. forever and there will still be multiple opinions.

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#223866 - 10/04/08 05:18 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: cgolf]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7057
Loc: Canada
But thats just the point. The experiment took believers from two different camps and did blind testing. Neither was able to distinguish differences reliably.

Now, if both groups reliably identified one component over the other (after applying statistical analysis), you have a quantifiable difference.
_________________________
Fred

-------
Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#223867 - 10/04/08 05:19 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: cgolf]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7057
Loc: Canada
Indeed, there will always be multiple opinions.
_________________________
Fred

-------
Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#223873 - 10/04/08 05:43 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: SatKartr]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17783
Loc: NoVA
But it's also currently a better hypothesis (read: properly tested) than the hypothesis that that hypothesis is incorrect. I also suspect that this is not the only such comparison out there.
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I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#223875 - 10/04/08 05:50 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: SatKartr]
CV Online   confused
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11212
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
I would never argue that we know everything there is to know about sound reproduction. It just seems that as far as the end result, the only sure footing is based on controlled listening tests. The differences should be audible, since that's what it's all about.

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#223877 - 10/04/08 06:01 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: SatKartr]
CV Online   confused
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11212
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
That might be the problem. Companies who are trying to make a profit probably aren't going to want to pay tons of money just to confirm points that they already think are established. There are major obstacles in sound reproduction yet to be overcome, and if they believe the differences in the links in the chain under discussion are negligible, they're going to want to invest elsewhere.

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#223894 - 10/04/08 09:49 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: SatKartr]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
All I can say is if you have the money and are willing to part with it because you think brand X is the best, more power to you as, you will be happy and that is all that matters, being happy with that which you have chosen, that is what led me to Axiom, the best I can afford.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#223906 - 10/04/08 11:37 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: jakewash]
SatKartr Offline
aficionado

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 608
Loc: Dallas
Thanks for your kind words and vote of confidence.
_________________________
"If you try to turn toward it, you go against it."

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#223929 - 10/05/08 10:55 AM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: SatKartr]
myrison Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/03/08
Posts: 1898
Loc: Austin, TX
Can I call a timeout? This is quickly turning ugly. I tried to post the original review with as little emotion as possible. I find that it offers an interesting position, but certainly not the only one and I'm very sorry to see that it's created this type of argument. SK, in the last few of your posts it's hard to tell whoom you're responding to (other than the one that is quoted), but I believe most are in response to FredK.

Assuming that's the case, before Fred can come back to respond to your posts directly I will at least try to tell you that I don't think his posts were intended to be combative. It's unfortunate this thread has gone down this path. To add my two cents here, I agree with what Jason (Jakewash) posted... If purchasing a certain product is worth the money to you, and makes you happy with your purchase, then by all means, that is the way to go.

Jason
_________________________
Epic 80-800: HG Cherry | HT Pics

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#223934 - 10/05/08 11:01 AM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: myrison]
terzaghi Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 4848
Loc: Tulsa, Oklahoma
so how about the nebraska/ missouri game huh? YIKES! I kept watching it and thinking "Man, We have to play them next week!" \:o
_________________________
-David

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#223937 - 10/05/08 11:06 AM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: terzaghi]
myrison Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/03/08
Posts: 1898
Loc: Austin, TX
Hey, great segue, though the topic is nearly as painful! Yes, it was UGLY. I have to give them props though, Mizzou looked fantastic. The best thing I can say is that at least we were tied at 7-7 for about 4 minutes. ;\) The last 56 minutes were harder to watch.
_________________________
Epic 80-800: HG Cherry | HT Pics

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#224009 - 10/05/08 10:16 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: myrison]
turbo16v Offline
veteran

Registered: 01/19/08
Posts: 175
Loc: SkiUtah!
I copied this from another thread so share \:\)

I have the emo xpa5 and mmmc1 powering my axiom setup and must say they are excellent! the build quality is great. Music has never sounded so good. when emo releases the xmc1 processer, dual subs, and the cd player you can bet they will all be in my theater! Plus everything comes with a 5 year warranty just like axiom

If you are worried about the quality of emo products here is a quote from audioholics on their new surroud speakers:

Right from the beginning, I suspected that Emotiva had something special with their ERD-1 dipole speakers. The Axiom QS8's are a very highly regarded rear "quad" pole speaker (a top and bottom woofer and two side angled tweeters - one on each side all firing in phase). I was surprised to find that the ERD-1s bested the Axioms on almost every metric I could come up with. The opening sequence of the first and title track features a keyboard bouncing around the rears and what sounds to be a train pulling into a station. The ERDs really performed well not only during the quiet section at the very beginning but also in remaining articulate during the louder sections. At no point did I think the ERDs were being overpowered or drowned out. At the same time, they blended well with the rest of the system. Basically, when I wanted to hear them I could, when I didn't, they just disappeared. While some might say that a bipole configuration would be best for multichannel music, I found the dipole setting to create a nice diffuse sound that still performed well for point-source effects. As always, we encourage you to experiment for yourself and see what you prefer. Just make sure to check your levels as you switch between the settings as the levels are likely to change. While I've always found the Axioms to be a fine surround speaker, the ERDs are in an entirely different class

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#224040 - 10/05/08 11:25 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: turbo16v]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
That's mighty high praise to be considered better than the QS8s.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#224041 - 10/05/08 11:26 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: jakewash]
CV Online   confused
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11212
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
Definitely. It would be nice to hear them.

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#224042 - 10/05/08 11:29 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: CV]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
I'd love to be able to order up all the different brands of ID speakers and just listen and note the differences, unfortunately my wallet and my family wouldn't agree.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#224053 - 10/06/08 02:38 AM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: cgolf]
MCL Offline
buff

Registered: 09/15/08
Posts: 42
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
 Originally Posted By: cgolf
M60s in front with a VP150 center and QS8s as surrounds. My sub is an HSU VTF3.


Hey that is exactly what I will end up with. I have the 150, 60s on the way. What do you think of it? I have an Onkyo 805 receiver powering it all.

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#224062 - 10/06/08 09:06 AM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: MCL]
cgolf Offline
devotee

Registered: 03/14/05
Posts: 340
Loc: Cypress, Texas
I love the setup. It's fantastic and the Emotiva equipment meshes well with the Axiom speakers. However!!!???, like many others on this forum, I drool over the M80s and even have them on my wish list of components. May never get them but if and when I do get different speakers for the front, it will be M80s. Also, I don't think I'll ever go back to a receiver. I like having separates because it allows me the flexibility to continue upgrading the processor, if needed or desired. The amp doesn't need upgrading.

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#224107 - 10/06/08 07:01 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: cgolf]
DaveG Offline
aficionado

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 868
Loc: WI
MCL,Those are nice set of speakers, the 805 will provide all the power you require unless your room is extremely large and/or you listen at levels that cause hearing damage. Enjoy.
_________________________
Dave

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#224186 - 10/07/08 12:20 AM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: SatKartr]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16282
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
 Quote:
I suspect a lot of people don't share because of the few who believe they know everything.

Just because someone disagrees with you and cites science to support their side of the argument doesn't mean they know everything. This bit of slander has been tossed about before. It displeases me.

Also, the fact that certain scientific hypotheses do not support your currently-held beliefs does not mean they are more likely to be overturned in the future than hypotheses that agree with your beliefs. There are still people who believe the Earth is flat. I, for one, have not seen the curvature of the Earth myself; however, I have seen sufficient evidence of it thanks to astronomers, physicists, (i.e. scientists), and photos taken by satellites and astronauts to take it as a fact.

It is important to want to experience as many things first-hand as you can. But when someone claims to be an expert (and has sufficient and verifiable credentials for that claim) and they present evidence that they arrived at via the scientific method in an area where I am unable to personally test the evidence under similar circumstances, I tend to give such evidence credence. It just so happens that the opinion us "know-it-alls" tend to put forward is supported by such evidence.

Science moves forward slowly, it is true. Hypotheses are constantly revised as new evidence comes in. If a hypothesis withstands many tests without needing to be revised, it becomes a theory -- like gravity and evolution. These were once hypotheses, just like the "audio component X make(s) no difference" is a hypothesis. Until proven otherwise by contradictory evidence gained under controlled circumstances -- any evidence presented anecdotally, as yours has been presented, is of no use -- the hypothesis stands as valid.
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#224203 - 10/07/08 01:24 AM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: SatKartr]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10398
Sat, you're attempting to make this far more complicated than it is; these things can either be heard or they can't. There's no solid evidence that they can be heard when subjected to properly controlled tests.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#224207 - 10/07/08 01:44 AM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: SatKartr]
Hutzal Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Hollywood. (Canadian @ <3)
Where did the kindergarten teacher go?
_________________________
Producer | Composer
www.robbhutzal.com

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#224208 - 10/07/08 01:44 AM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: SatKartr]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16282
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
 Quote:
You all don't love Axioms because of brainwashing, they actually sound better, IMHO.


I agree that they sound better. There's a big reason for that. Axiom embraces the science of audio. Their speakers have been designed and refined through countless hours of measurement in anechoic chambers (at the NRC and now at their factory) and through blind listening tests. Thusly, both gadgets and human ears have been employed to great effect in their pursuit of the ideal of neutrality of reproduction.

You don't often get to reap the benefits of science in such a visceral way. \:\)


Oh, and queen? Please. There's no need to resort to archaic labels. I care little for rank. We try to treat each other with respect here, despite differences of opinion.


Edited by pmbuko (10/07/08 01:55 AM)
Edit Reason: speaking of oil...
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#224211 - 10/07/08 01:59 AM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: SatKartr]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16282
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
With both amps driven within their limits? I'd say yes. Next time I'm in their company, I'll suggest such a test.

The fact is, they are in a business to sell products. They aren't going to tell you, explicitly, that all amps (that are flat from 20Hz to 20kHz) will sound the same when not clipping. The A1400-8 provides advantages outside of that, however.
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#224214 - 10/07/08 02:13 AM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: SatKartr]
lucv13 Offline
veteran

Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 103
Loc: London ON Canada
Well in my opinion -- hold on I don't have an opinion on this matter

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#224262 - 10/07/08 01:10 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: SatKartr]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16282
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
For those waiting a with bated breath... this debate has been diffused amicably via PM. We shall not subject you to more.
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#224269 - 10/07/08 01:36 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: pmbuko]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10911
Loc: Central NH
Popcorn was gettin' cold anyway.

Would I like to see more? You Betcha! (*wink*)
_________________________
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::

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#224285 - 10/07/08 03:39 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: MarkSJohnson]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7057
Loc: Canada
Aww Maaan. You had the popcorn??
_________________________
Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#224302 - 10/07/08 04:23 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: fredk]
SatKartr Offline
aficionado

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 608
Loc: Dallas
Sorry for being such a hot head guys, you know what they say, if you can't take the heat . . .

Good luck baking y'er ideas, be takin' 'em out when they're crispy on the outside but still soft and tender on the inside.

And may the gods of audio smile down on all y'er educated guesswork and all y'er purchases.

Trust y'er ears, they be y'er friends, for true; who else could hear but you?!
_________________________
"If you try to turn toward it, you go against it."

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#224375 - 10/07/08 08:49 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: SatKartr]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7057
Loc: Canada
Its all good.
_________________________
Fred

-------
Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#224405 - 10/07/08 11:38 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: fredk]
lucv13 Offline
veteran

Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 103
Loc: London ON Canada
whew now that boy has some, some, some.........opinions

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#224409 - 10/07/08 11:46 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: lucv13]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13337
Loc: Iowa
Its all bad. \:\)
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#224548 - 10/08/08 11:30 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: SirQuack]
Klugger Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 11/28/07
Posts: 38
Loc: Crossfield AB Canada
It's time for a Beer.
_________________________
ONKYO TS-SR875, M22, QS8, VP150, EP350v3, LC-52D92U,HD-A30

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#224550 - 10/08/08 11:31 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: Klugger]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16282
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
It's Willer time.
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#224554 - 10/08/08 11:40 PM Re: Emotiva's New Pre/Pro [Re: pmbuko]
Klugger Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 11/28/07
Posts: 38
Loc: Crossfield AB Canada
Bottons up!!!!!!
_________________________
ONKYO TS-SR875, M22, QS8, VP150, EP350v3, LC-52D92U,HD-A30

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