Get Free, Friendly, Expert Advice
Call 1-866-244-8796 or email

Designed and Manufactured in Canada Since 1980


AxiomAudio Blog

Sneak Peek into Axiom’s Current Research and Development

Axiom’s Newest Speaker: The In-Ceiling M3

Outdoor Speaker Placement

Wall'O'Fame
Experimental Atmos
Greetings fellow Axiom owners...
Who's Online
3 registered (Stilljoe, onn, SirQuack), 126 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Financing
Forum Stats
13322 Members
11 Forums
22897 Topics
404607 Posts

Max Online: 378 @ 02/24/13 04:33 PM
Top Posters
Ken.C 17781
pmbuko 16280
SirQuack 13337
CV 11208
MarkSJohnson 10900
Meanwhile On Facebook

󾓶 The first review of the LFR880s is out! "If you are adding or upgrading stere...

So much going on in this month's newsletter - new product announcements, a new v...

Love this comment from Doug T! "The M22 bookshelf speakers sound so clean and a...

󾓶 Andrew has spoken! Big update on the AxiomPlay Wireless Platform on the Axiom...

Page 1 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#23208 - 10/26/03 01:42 AM Speaker cable
Josh784 Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 10/15/03
Posts: 23
I have my M2i speakers thanks to Axiom's wonderfully fast shipping, and by Friday I will have my Velodyne VX-10, Yamaha HTR-5550 and Pioneer DVD-A/SACD Player.

Today I went to Radio Shack with what's left of my audio budget, and bought 50 feet of flat, 14 guage copper speaker wire for $20.

Did I buy the right thing? I didn't get any bannana plugs or anything, so I will just be using bare wire to connect the speakers, would bannana plugs or something else work better?

Will I need any other cable to set my stereo up when I get all the components? Also, I see numerous companies sell subwoofer cable, is this something I should buy, or is it not worth it?

Thanks,
Josh

Top
#23209 - 10/26/03 02:00 AM Re: Speaker cable
DJ_Stunna Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/09/03
Posts: 604
Loc: Baltimore. MD. USA (but born a...
Don't use bannana plugs unless you will be changing speakers / amplifiers a lot. It's not as solid of a connection and can slip out at times. Just do bare wire until you eventually (if you ever want to) get real wire that ends in spades that attach to the binding posts on your amp and your speakers.

You need inter-connects, which is one thing you didn't list. For now, all you REALLY need is a single wire going from that DVD player to the reciever. Do Digital Coaxial, as Optical is generally of lower quality (as because it is light, it's sensetive to bends that cause jitter). Get any kind of relatively cheap RCA to RCA wire, it should work well for you.

Good luck on the system

_________________________

Top
#23210 - 10/26/03 10:36 AM Re: Speaker cable
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4829
Loc: western canada
Josh,
Bare wire is perfectly fine for connecting speaker wire to your speakers and receiver. You can use any termination (spades or bananas) if you wish. It won't make any difference. It is all personal preference regardless of what anyone may tell you otherwise. The odd time a receiver may not fit a particular termination though but bare wire is universal.

As for the DVD player, you will need interconnect cables to hook up to your receiver. You can choose usually from 3 methods, via RCA (red and yellow or sometimes red and white) connectors which is an analog connection, or 2 digital connection options.

If you use the RCA connection, your DVD player will do the audio processing for the sound. If you wish to use the DVD-A feature in 5.1 sound then this is the only route at this time that makes this possible. You literally have to buy RCA cables for each channel which goes out from your player and into a section on the back of your receiver. This means buying 5 or so RCA cables. Take a look on the back of your new DVD player and you will see what i mean. The instruction manual should also make this point more clear.

If however you do not wish to use that 5.1 feature at this time or you wish to view a DVD in Dolby or DTS surround sound, you can/must connect the player to your receiver via one of two digitial methods. These are coaxial cable and optical cable. There is no difference between the two. They only carry zereos and ones to your receiver which then processes that information into the analog signal sent to your speakers. Most dvd players do not decode Dolby or DTS information from movie dvds so this information must be passed to the receiver's processors via a digital connection to use these features.

Some people have a preference as to which unit, your DVD player or the receiver, processes the sound signal for music, but most well built units today will sound identical. Any minute differences in specifications or measurements are often beyond the realm of human hearing. Chances are you won't be able to tell between the two except if there is a difference in signal sensitivity creating a difference in actual volume.

You will also most likely need a subwoofer cable (single RCA plug) to go from your receiver to the sub. Lengths are variable but choose a length appropriate to where you want to place your subwoofer in the room. They are not expensive and i picked up one from eBay for about $20 for 30 feet.
There have been many inexpensive options reported in these forums for places to find interconnects.
_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

Top
#23211 - 10/26/03 11:28 AM Re: Speaker cable
DJ_Stunna Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/09/03
Posts: 604
Loc: Baltimore. MD. USA (but born a...
In reply to:

You can use any termination (spades or bananas) if you wish.


Except for bananas. Trust me, I use them all the time when I DJ, and its definately not something you want to make a permanent connection out of. They are just too prone to falling out. If you do decide to get them, don't get single bananas, as if they fall out when u trip over the wire they could touch eachother really easily. Get a dual banana. I'm pretty sure that I read somewhere that the axiom surrounds or center dont support dual bananas, but I cant remember where. Anyways, spades, to me, just seem like they are the most sturdy of connections and give the most surface area for the signal transfer.

In reply to:

They only carry zereos and ones to your receiver which then processes that information into the analog signal sent to your speakers.


Yes, but if you use optical and your cable is too bent, it will warp the light that makes up the signal. That is why the data transfer grade cables don't bend (for the most part). Now those, although they sometimes carry more than one wavelength of light (so a bend makes more of a difference), a bend can still affect an audio single wavelength signal. Plus, they tend to be more prone to being damaged.

Oh, and there has to be a reason why some high end units like my Yamaha RX-Z1 (not sure about my Denon though) can only do 192 kHz in Digital Coaxial mode, and not in Optical (well they say in the manual "Use the coaxial input to input over 96 kHz digital signal. The signals may not be correctly played back if the Optical input jack is used," and I'm not sure if they mean that it won't work or it won't work well. As far as I can tell from that poorly worded quote, is that it will work, but incorrectly.) Also, when both are present they give priority to Coaxial.


In reply to:

You will also most likely need a subwoofer cable (single RCA plug) to go from your receiver to the sub. Lengths are variable but choose a length appropriate to where you want to place your subwoofer in the room. They are not expensive and i picked up one from eBay for about $20 for 30 feet.


Heh, the subwoofer cable; I forgot about that. So just buy 2 RCA male to RCA male cables at radio shack for pretty cheap; or if you want, buy one of those exotic ones that you can't tell the difference with when comparing to a standard cable.
_________________________

Top
#23212 - 10/26/03 01:09 PM Re: Speaker cable
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4829
Loc: western canada
In reply to:

Except for bananas. Trust me, I use them all the time when I DJ, and its definately not something you want to make a permanent connection out of.



This is your experience, not others. Only excessive bending and plugging/unplugging may cause the problem you describe such as in the DJ business. Most home users will not experience such an issue.

In reply to:

spades, to me, just seem like they are the most sturdy of connections and give the most surface area for the signal transfer.



Surface area between a spade or banana will not effect the quality of the signal. Let's remember how short a distance we are referring to here and the massive number of electrons contained within even a pin's head of metal contact.
In reply to:

Yes, but if you use optical and your cable is too bent, it will warp the light that makes up the signal.



This is ridiculous and is exactly the kind of misinformation hype that people have about the concept of digital optical cable.
In reply to:

Plus, they tend to be more prone to being damaged.



Most people do not chew their cables. I have yet to hear of anyone's pets doing the same.

192khz vs 96khz. Garbage in garbage out. Upsampling doesn't do anything useful.
_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

Top
#23213 - 10/26/03 01:11 PM Re: Speaker cable
JimmyTango Offline
veteran

Registered: 10/17/03
Posts: 175
How about people have different opinions?

Top
#23214 - 10/26/03 02:11 PM Re: Speaker cable
spiffnme Offline
axiomite

Registered: 04/01/03
Posts: 5214
Loc: Los Angeles
Once again the cable thread rears it's ugly head.

I simply don't understand why peoples opinions on cables always reaches such ugly levels. We seem to be able to discuss pretty much anything else on these boards (excempt amps) without having such heated negativity thrown around.

How about this for an idea...from now on when someone asks about cables, people post their opinions, but DON'T respond to other peoples opinions. You realize you're NEVER going to change anyone's mind, so why get into a pissing match? We'll just post what WE feel, and let the person asking the question read the responses and make their own decision.

btw...this is not an opinion - it's my own personal experience. Banana plugs do not stay seated in my M60's. I've never had an issue with other speakers, but with my M60's, the banana would slip out with the slightest movement of the speaker. I've switched to spades and tightened them down nicely. (I have to move my speakers frequently to reach a closet door behind my system.)
_________________________
"A nation cannot prosper long, when it favors only the prosperous." -President Barack Obama

Top
#23215 - 10/26/03 02:15 PM Re: Speaker cable
MiniRock Offline
devotee

Registered: 10/12/03
Posts: 494
Loc: Napavine, WA
I use both bananas and spades in two different setups, and both work great. I have never had a banana or spade OR bare wire slip out, and one thing you should not do is run around your equipment and wire. Just common sense.
_________________________
Mini Rock's Lounge.com

Top
#23216 - 10/26/03 04:08 PM Re: Speaker cable
JimmyTango Offline
veteran

Registered: 10/17/03
Posts: 175
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here...This is the War Room!"
-- (Dr. Strangelove, 1964)

Top
#23217 - 10/26/03 05:37 PM Re: Speaker cable
DJ_Stunna Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/09/03
Posts: 604
Loc: Baltimore. MD. USA (but born a...
In reply to:

This is your experience, not others. Only excessive bending and plugging/unplugging may cause the problem you describe such as in the DJ business. Most home users will not experience such an issue.


But why even risk it - or use a cable that will only have a limited number of times you can put it in and out.

In reply to:

Surface area between a spade or banana will not effect the quality of the signal. Let's remember how short a distance we are referring to here and the massive number of electrons contained within even a pin's head of metal contact.


Then please run a few hundred watts of power through wire that thin (the size of a pin's head). Please remember ohms law. Yes, banana's can have a huge surface area, but my comparison was between bare wire and spades (since I had already ruled out banana's because they are prone to falling out). I should have made that more clear.

In reply to:

This is ridiculous and is exactly the kind of misinformation hype that people have about the concept of digital optical cable.


Then why in digital data transfer with optical lines is bending the cable a 'no-no' - please elaborate how that is wrong - I'm only a Neuroscience (Systems Concentration) guy, but I'd be glad to ask some materials science professors as to why it's correct. I'm aware that with more than one wavelength of light it's necessary to keep it straight, but I'm pretty sure that with only one, it's still better to keep it as straight as possible.

In reply to:

Most people do not chew their cables. I have yet to hear of anyone's pets doing the same.


Eh, I guess. But mine has gotten tugged a few times and it doesn't work right anymore - it gets really noisy once in a while. It could, however, be the add-on card I got for my sound card; I don't know.

In reply to:

192khz vs 96khz. Garbage in garbage out. Upsampling doesn't do anything useful


No. I am talking about formats that start out in 192 kHz. There is no reason to use them at 96 when they are meant for 192. I am not up to date on how DVD-A and SACD data is transfered, but I'd like to be able to experience them at 2ch/192 kHz if it allowed. And I was saying that there had to be a reason for that. Be it that it is harder to make an optical sensor with that quality, or whatnot, but there has to be something not allowing for that.
_________________________

Top
#23218 - 10/26/03 05:40 PM Re: Speaker cable
rcvecc Offline
aficionado

Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 608
Loc: east haven ct
josh,ignore those other posts and pick up a set of theese.......ron
http://gallery.consumerreview.com/audio/gallery/files/opus-mm.asp


Edited by rcvecc (10/26/03 05:43 PM)

Top
#23219 - 10/26/03 05:44 PM Re: Speaker cable
DJ_Stunna Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/09/03
Posts: 604
Loc: Baltimore. MD. USA (but born a...
In reply to:

btw...this is not an opinion - it's my own personal experience. Banana plugs do not stay seated in my M60's. I've never had an issue with other speakers, but with my M60's, the banana would slip out with the slightest movement of the speaker. I've switched to spades and tightened them down nicely. (I have to move my speakers frequently to reach a closet door behind my system.)


Yea. When I have used bananas on my Axioms they do the same. They are a bit more snug than my DJ speakers though.
_________________________

Top
#23220 - 10/26/03 05:45 PM Re: Speaker cable
DJ_Stunna Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/09/03
Posts: 604
Loc: Baltimore. MD. USA (but born a...
rvcecc that's transparent audio cable, correct? A friend of mine uses not those but their 'lowest-end' cables for the wire and some less expensive interconnects

Edit: I checked the link again and actually read the caption - heh - wow. Expensive.
_________________________

Top
#23221 - 10/26/03 06:00 PM Re: Speaker cable
rcvecc Offline
aficionado

Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 608
Loc: east haven ct
i cant imagine those cables being a big seller,but it must be nice to be able to piss away that kind of money for speaker wire.the most i ever spent on speaker wire is 300usd for a 12' pair of mit2 terminator wire.i was running a acurus a150 amp through klipsch speakers and there was definetly a change in the sound from regular,run of the mill wire to the mit----was it better?depends on what you like---was it worth the money?hell no.luckily i was able to sell them for what i paid because i picked them up at a bargain price(so the salesman said)....ron

Top
#23222 - 10/26/03 06:08 PM Re: Speaker cable
DJ_Stunna Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/09/03
Posts: 604
Loc: Baltimore. MD. USA (but born a...
Yea, I woudln't buy cable that expensive, Ron.

So wow - you could actually tell the difference. Not just placebo effect, eh? (or was it )
_________________________

Top
#23223 - 10/26/03 06:27 PM Re: Speaker cable
mwc Offline
aficionado

Registered: 07/21/02
Posts: 958
Loc: Texas(DFW)..that country to th...
In reply to:

We seem to be able to discuss pretty much anything else on these boards (excempt amps) without having such heated negativity thrown around




Amps and (lest we forget a certian recent thread) censorious paranoria.

In reply to:

so why get into a pissing match? We'll just post what WE feel




With all due respect, I think Chess was posting what he feels (although I do feel that the wording could have been a tad more diplomatic) and quite frankly, he beat me to it.

I'm sorry but I have a problem with asking people not to express themselves (in perhaps the only way they know how). Allowing people to express themselves in an unfetttered way can also give the reader great insight into that persons way of thinking ("know thine enemy" sort of thing-if applicable). And I think this is important if we are to consider ourselves an Axiom community. In other words, I want the whole enchilada

BTW,

In reply to:

I simply don't understand why peoples opinions on cables always reaches such ugly levels.




I think it may have something to do with fraudulent claims by cable companies.

I don't have a problem with a cable company charging $2000.00 for a 3' piece of wire (a fool and his money are easily parted) as long as that company is not making some outragous scientific claim that can only be substantiated by ear alone.

I know this has been a bit of a rant and I apologize for that.

P.S: I too have had crappy banana plugs that wouldn't stay put. But the upside is that if the cable is inadvertently jerked out, it is less likely to damage the binding post. But there are well made bananas and there are poorly made bananas. Daaaay-O! Daaa-aa-yO!
_________________________
*Does your train of thought have a caboose?*

Top
#23224 - 10/26/03 06:54 PM Re: Speaker cable
chrono Offline
old hand

Registered: 06/24/03
Posts: 89
Loc: Toronto, ON
I actually saw a pair of those Transparent OPUS MM's at a local audio shop.. hooked up to a pair of B&W Nautilus 802s. The wire is so big, it looks horrible. It looks like an exposed plumbing system or something.

Top
#23225 - 10/26/03 07:11 PM Re: Speaker cable
rcvecc Offline
aficionado

Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 608
Loc: east haven ct
Nope,not just placebo effect, eh? although, specs may say otherwise,my ears overide all statistics,thats why i love my system...by the way,how do you like your rsw-15?...ron

Top
#23226 - 10/26/03 07:23 PM Re: Speaker cable
DJ_Stunna Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/09/03
Posts: 604
Loc: Baltimore. MD. USA (but born a...
In reply to:

by the way,how do you like your rsw-15?...ron


Really dislike it. It's not that it's a bad subwoofer, but it was a bad investment for me. I have two subs (one on each system), and my Eminence 15 LF Magnum with a 400 W Plate amp and a custom box just seems to have a huge edge over the klipsch in terms of musical clarity. The Klipsch can be a lot more violent, though (which is pretty nice in movies). I won't lie; it's impressive, but for the price, it should be. Now, while my Eminence can't pull those insane levels, it can still pull over 115 dB at 20 Hz in (small) room with corner placement. The whole system of the eminence woofer, box, and plate-amp cost me a little over $700, whereas the Klipsch cost me almost 3 times as much. If your goal is a home theater system, I cannot think of a better sub than the Klipsch RSW-15 (as I havn't heard the likes of HSU, but it is a tad more powerful than an SVS [sorry I forget the model] I heard and almost as good as the 18" mammoth from Velodyne). If your goal is for music, I wouldn't be able to think of anything better than a setup that has either an Adire woofer (Tempest or Tumult or Shiva MkIII if you want a 12" driver) or an Eminence Professional Series 15 LF Magnum.

I have to add one thing, for those to whom it applies... The Klipsch is a beautiful subwoofer. It becomes a centerpoint of your room. The DIY Eminence I have while not looking that good, is still presentable. If looks are a concern to you, you will love those cones. Although, I'm sure you already know this, as you had some beautiful klipsch's before.
_________________________

Top
#23227 - 10/26/03 07:55 PM Re: Speaker cable
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
Spiff wrote:
"Once again the cable thread rears it's ugly head.

I simply don't understand why peoples opinions on cables always reaches such ugly levels. We seem to be able to discuss pretty much anything else on these boards (excempt amps) without having such heated negativity thrown around."

I don't think it's the discussion which reaches the same "ugly" level, it's the same ugly people who invariably bring the discussion down to their level

We know who will not tolerate any opinion which differ from their own. Personally, I've almost had it with the arrogant and insulting tone of the 'usual suspects' here. It's a disgrace - and makes the Axiom website a much less hospitable a place for folks to drop by and discuss audio matters and questions in a friendly and open manner.



_________________________
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

Top
#23228 - 10/26/03 08:01 PM Re: Speaker cable
DJ_Stunna Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/09/03
Posts: 604
Loc: Baltimore. MD. USA (but born a...
In reply to:

I don't think it's the discussion which reaches the same "ugly" level, it's the same ugly people who invariably bring the discussion down to their level


Sorry for being one of the 'ugly people' .
_________________________

Top
#23229 - 10/26/03 08:06 PM Re: Speaker cable
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
DJ, just read through the rest of the thread, and note that there was nothing arrogant, intolerant or ugly about the way you express your opinions.
_________________________
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

Top
#23230 - 10/26/03 08:28 PM Re: Speaker cable
Josh784 Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 10/15/03
Posts: 23
For now I'm just going to use budget cable, but once I get a bit more money, is Monster Cable pretty good, and would it be worth the investment?

Thanks,
Josh

Top
#23231 - 10/26/03 08:37 PM Re: Speaker cable
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10395
Yes Josh, monster cable is pretty good, just as good as lamp cord, and no, since it can't be any better it isn't worth spending more.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



Top
#23232 - 10/26/03 08:53 PM Re: Speaker cable
Josh784 Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 10/15/03
Posts: 23
Where would be a good place to buy cable on the internet?

Thanks,

Josh

Top
#23233 - 10/26/03 09:02 PM Re: Speaker cable
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10395
Josh, since you've already got a lot more speaker wire than you'll need for your M2s, I assume that you're thinking of the sub cable or other interconnecting cables. Two reasonably priced sources are Parts Express and Pacific Cable.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



Top
#23234 - 10/26/03 11:50 PM Re: Speaker cable
DJ_Stunna Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/09/03
Posts: 604
Loc: Baltimore. MD. USA (but born a...
In reply to:

it can still pull over 115 dB at 20 Hz in (small) room with corner placement.


117 dB at 20 Hz at listening position about 3.5 feet away to be exact. I didn't max out my sub all the way, but I didn't want to push it any harder because I don't want to accidentally break it just to see its limits; but it was using a lot of excursion.
_________________________

Top
#23235 - 10/26/03 11:55 PM Re: Speaker cable
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4829
Loc: western canada
In reply to:

Personally, I've almost had it with the arrogant and insulting tone of the 'usual suspects' here. It's a disgrace - and makes the Axiom website a much less hospitable a place for folks to drop by and discuss audio matters and questions in a friendly and open manner.



And once again 2x6spds slings his subtle mud, the pot calling the kettle black.
Your statements are brutally full of hypocrisy.
You are anything but innocent in ticking ppl off in this forum buddy and you have built your own stock of 'adversaries' quite nicely.
I believe not long ago Semi had pegged you with a more proper title that is befitting of your true colours with which I am in complete agreement.

Go ahead and continue to try and impress those that haven't known your posting style and true character for as long a period as some others.
Your pathetic facade is a real cry for mental help.

_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

Top
#23236 - 10/27/03 12:16 AM Re: Speaker cable
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
Josh, I'd go to partsexpress.com for their Dayton subwoofer cable and interconnects. If you can find Tara Labs Prism 300's, they're well made and inexpensive. Another good deal for well reviewed interconnects are the AR cables which you can get at Best Buy or Good Guys, don't remember which, maybe both. You may be able to find a good price doing a google search. Good luck with your new system!!

Enjoy the music.
_________________________
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

Top
#23237 - 10/27/03 12:16 AM Re: Speaker cable
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4829
Loc: western canada
In reply to:

But why even risk it - or use a cable that will only have a limited number of times you can put it in and out.



DJ, the risk here is over a $1 connector for pete sake.
I've had banana plugs for years with no problems. I've used them with my Axiom setup for over a year and a half with no problems and i was switching speakers around rather regularly (couple times a month) for awhile there during some auditioning.
Granted the Axiom plugins are not as deep as some other speakers, but since the speaker and cable should not be moving on a daily basis or during playback, how is is that your banana plugs kept popping out?
In reply to:

Then please run a few hundred watts of power through wire that thin (the size of a pin's head). Please remember ohms law.



This is an extreme example for which we both know is not what is occurring. Besides, you do not constantly run several hundred watts of power to speakers. Most power ranges under several watts. If they did not, then tube amps would be pretty much a waste of time.
In reply to:

my comparison was between bare wire and spades (since I had already ruled out banana's because they are prone to falling out). I should have made that more clear.



I understand where you were headed with that now.
In reply to:

Then why in digital data transfer with optical lines is bending the cable a 'no-no' ... I'm aware that with more than one wavelength of light it's necessary to keep it straight, but I'm pretty sure that with only one, it's still better to keep it as straight as possible.



Optical cable was not meant to be bent in shapes that can be attained by metal conductors, that is true. However, optical cable is designed for curvature of the cable. It has to in real world applications and for those that are not so sure...light does bend. Curving an optical cable does not change the signal especially when we are talking about a distance typically less than 3 feet. If optical cable could not be bent at all then consider why companies like Nortel would be producing and running hundreds of thousands of kilometres of optical cable for world communications.
Did you know those high capacity optical cables can carry in excess of 400GB per SECOND of data!?? (I have a relative that works for Nextel).
In reply to:

Eh, I guess. But mine has gotten tugged a few times and it doesn't work right anymore - it gets really noisy once in a while. It could, however, be the add-on card I got for my sound card; I don't know.



My old Technics system had a similar problem. The fault was in the connection of the optical cable to the unit itself. Cheap plastic ends from the original boxed cables must have become worn down and became loose. Switching to a new cable fixed the problem.
I have also had subwoofer cables with somewhat questionable RCA terminations causing odd noises if the cable was not placed in a certain position. There is such a thing as 'too cheap' cable. Heck, it has to at least work properly.

As for the sound card, my Turtle Beach spits out the odd sound drop and pop now and again. Sometimes i play a song twice to be sure it was not a recording flaw.
_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

Top
#23238 - 10/27/03 12:18 AM Re: Speaker cable
DJ_Stunna Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/09/03
Posts: 604
Loc: Baltimore. MD. USA (but born a...
Comeon people; let's keep it away from personal remarks.

Anyways, changing the subject, has anyone had any experience with the Revel Performa B15? I'm thinking of selling my RSW-15 and my DIY Eminence and adding in some money and buying one of these subs. From what I hear, they are basically the best in any reasonable price range. Anyone has any experience with them?
_________________________

Top
#23239 - 10/27/03 12:28 AM Re: Speaker cable
DJ_Stunna Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/09/03
Posts: 604
Loc: Baltimore. MD. USA (but born a...
In reply to:

This is an extreme example for which we both know is not what is occurring. Besides, you do not constantly run several hundred watts of power to speakers. Most power ranges under several watts. If they did not, then tube amps would be pretty much a waste of time.


Heh - yea of course. But I was just mentioning that for the rare peaks; where you don't want anything getting in the way. Plus any bit of resistance will diminish the output, even if you cannot notice it (it may be insignificant, however).

In reply to:

I've used them with my Axiom setup for over a year and a half with no problems and i was switching speakers around rather regularly (couple times a month) for awhile there during some auditioning.


Indeed; for A/B testing, you NEED Banana's. That's the reason why I still have some for my actual rigs (if I want to test a new speaker, etc) and not just for my DJ setup.

In reply to:

However, optical cable is designed for curvature of the cable. It has to in real world applications and for those that are not so sure...light does bend.


Yea, of course it bends [Difference in refraction levels included {although they play more of a role in the initial input and exit from the cable}, but this also differs by wavelength, adding to my point in theory, and your's in practice.]

In reply to:

Did you know those high capacity optical cables can carry in excess of 400GB per SECOND of data!??


Indeed - the OC192's and up (hence the name Optical Connection, right? Or something along those lines?)

In reply to:

If optical cable could not be bent at all then consider why companies like Nortel would be producing and running hundreds of thousands of kilometres of optical cable for world communications.


I always thought that they weren't bent, but rather passed through their amplifiers and they would change the angle of the light and increase the signal; but keeping the actual cables themselves straight. It may be different now, though, as I havn't checked up on my information in the last few years.

In reply to:

My old Technics system had a similar problem. The fault was in the connection of the optical cable to the unit itself. Cheap plastic ends from the original boxed cables must have become worn down and became loose. Switching to a new cable fixed the problem.


BAH!! (at Acoustic Research) I have an AR optical cable that I can't use anymore unless I like the occasional noise session then.

EDIT: now that I think about it; it is probably that because before I decided on placement, wires were all over the place and I tripped over the cable on several occasions.
_________________________

Top
#23240 - 10/27/03 01:12 AM Re: Speaker cable
DJ_Stunna Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/09/03
Posts: 604
Loc: Baltimore. MD. USA (but born a...
Come to think of it; I think my setup would have remained a mess (and it was quite the mess with the lcd resting on the antec 10x0/enermax fs-710 case with cables going through and around everything) if it wasnt for nag factor (Alice), who found it unacceptable - lol - and her decisions seem to be much more powerful than mine. "Alice, dontcha love my new speakers?" "you are so obscessed" "yea, but you like that don't ya" "bah! move them or ill move them" "NEVER!!!! No one touches my audio equipment"

Yeah, um, it went like that (but I didn't say the last line and she doesnt say "bah" like I do -lol); but I meant to say that last line (and that's what matters, right?), it just didn't come out like that, in practice. I'm sure you all know what I mean...

During all of this, however, the speakers were in optimal position, as I had everything measured out distance-wise (chair to speakers and speakers from wall, etc). So it was 'functional.'
_________________________

Top
#23241 - 10/27/03 08:51 AM Re: Speaker cable
JasonG Offline
local

Registered: 04/29/02
Posts: 216
Loc: central Ohio
I've been very happy buying cables, banana plugs, etc from both partsexpress.com and accessories4less.com.

Top
#23242 - 10/27/03 10:18 AM Re: Speaker cable
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4829
Loc: western canada
In reply to:

I always thought that they weren't bent, but rather passed through their amplifiers and they would change the angle of the light and increase the signal; but keeping the actual cables themselves straight. It may be different now, though, as I havn't checked up on my information in the last few years.



DJ, there are routing points along the line that can receive and redirect or reamplify the signal, but these are a good distance apart.
There is a nifty article here from the Howstuffworks site about the story of fiber optics for those that are more curious.
Specifically this page describes the total internal reflection theory on which the principle of light transmission in the cable works and also briefly discusses the signal degradation that occurs. Note the distances and keep in mind that these signals are ones and zeroes hence degradation is a moot point as long as the receiving end can still recognize the incoming values. The strength of those values is not of any consequence unlike an analog signal.

Lastly, this page in that article gives a short list of advantage of fiber optics which includes a higher carrying capacity and less signal degradation compared to copper as well as a note on its physical flexibility. Something many also have not considered....the dreaded corrosion of coppper vs. glass!
The follow up links are quite good for more specific and detailed information.

In reply to:

I have an AR optical cable that I can't use anymore unless I like the occasional noise session then.

EDIT: now that I think about it; it is probably that because before I decided on placement, wires were all over the place and I tripped over the cable on several occasions.



That is never a good thing, tripping over wires that is.
I was rather annoyed at having to buy a new optical cable but the one i had originally was the one that came with the unit which always seems to be of poor build quality. I've had the jackets crack and expose wire over time, ends come loose and soldering come apart.
Rarely do i use the cables bundled with an electronic unit anymore. They are just too feebly built.
The relatively inexpensive AR or Ultralink interconnects i've bought on ebay have been excellent. The Ultralink optical cable fits nice and snug as it should. No movement.
_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

Top
#23243 - 10/27/03 03:56 PM Re: Speaker cable
DJ_Stunna Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/09/03
Posts: 604
Loc: Baltimore. MD. USA (but born a...
Ah alright. Fair enough . I also never considered corrosion into the picture - heh. Now that I live in Baltimore, MD, I probably should (I am originally from San Diego, CA [ to the San Diego fires]) as it actually rains here.
_________________________

Top
#23244 - 10/29/03 03:34 PM Re: Speaker cable
BigWill Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 1951
Loc: Corona, Calif. USA!!!
I was just watching a documentary on the Salem witch trials that I may show to my classes (Halloween, y'know) and it made me think of you guys and this recurring cable thread.

I'm not sure, but I think you're the witch, Chess.

Top
#23245 - 10/29/03 07:43 PM Re: Speaker cable
badger98 Offline
old hand

Registered: 10/29/03
Posts: 83
Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Disclaimer: I am not an electrical engineer, nor am I a physicist specializing in optics.

However, I have used both optical and coaxial digital connections in my setup and have only ever experienced problems with optical.

Though optical cables are designed to be bent, my understanding is the material within can break--losing the continuity of the light signal. I have had an optical cable "break" in the past, evidenced by its inability to produce a red glow when connected to an output with a live signal. Surely, this was due to my "connect and shove" method of hooking up components in my entertainment cabinet.

I see no difference in sending ones and zeros over optical or coaxial cable for home theater purposes. Therefore, I choose the coaxial for its durability (never broke one).

Thanks for your time, and please dont't hate me.


_________________________
-------------------------------------------------
M60s, VP150 and QS8s (2)
Powered by Denon

Top
#23246 - 10/29/03 08:34 PM Re: Speaker cable
Josh784 Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 10/15/03
Posts: 23
OK, so just to sum everything up:

1) My 14 guage flat radio shack copper wire is fine.

2) I should get a coaxial cable to connect the CD player and receiver.

3) I need to add an RCA plug to each end of piece of speaker wire to connect the sub and receiver.

Am I right?

Top
#23247 - 10/29/03 08:37 PM Re: Speaker cable
JasonG Offline
local

Registered: 04/29/02
Posts: 216
Loc: central Ohio
You should use a coaxial cable between the receiver and the sub. This is a pre-amp level signal, so you want to use a shielded cable.

Top
#23248 - 10/29/03 09:06 PM Re: Speaker cable
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10395
Josh, 1)Yes. 2) Probably eventually, but no rush. Included with your player will almost certainly be a connecting cable for audio and video about 4 feet long. You haven't mentioned your TV and at least temporarily you can use the video part of the connector(usually the yellow plug)as your coaxial audio connection, since the video connector is in fact a 75 ohm coaxial cable. 3) No. You can't use the speaker wire for the connection between the sub out on the receiver and the line-level input on the sub. You have to use a coaxial cable with an RCA plug on each end; you can get this for less than $1 a foot from sources such as Parts Express and Cable America.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



Top
#23249 - 10/29/03 09:58 PM Re: Speaker cable
Josh784 Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 10/15/03
Posts: 23
Well, I have my sub, player and speakers.

I did get that cable with the player. I had the sub hooked up to the player just to listen to it, I had that cable plugged into the player's left and right inputs, and into the sub's left and right inputs.

I take it when I set my whole system up, I don't need a left and right going to the sub, just a single RCA into the right input on the sub, which says "mono" next to it.

Also on the sub are a series of 8 plugs, 4 for input and 4 for output, which have (+) and (-) for left and right on them, and I think these are for bi-wiring but I am not sure... ?

Thanks,

Josh

Top
#23250 - 10/29/03 10:02 PM Re: Speaker cable
Josh784 Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 10/15/03
Posts: 23
Another question: looking on parts express, they have listed coaxial cable, and subwoofer cable - are these the same thing?

The pictures and prices look identical.

Thanks,

Josh

Top
#23251 - 10/29/03 11:40 PM Re: Speaker cable
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10395
Okay, Josh, lots of points; I'll try some of them. So you have a coaxial cable which is the yellow-plugged one. Use it(assuming that you don't use it for TV) for the connection from the coaxial digital output of the player to the coaxial digital input of the receiver.

Yes, you need only one RCA plug into one RCA socket on the sub. All those 8 terminals on the sub are for high-level inputs and outputs with speaker wire, which you won't be using since you're using the generally better line-level coaxial connection. The crossover control on the sub should be turned all the way up to get it out of the way of the 90Hz crossover which the receiver will do.

Most likely the sub and coaxial cables you saw on Parts Express are the same. Any coaxial cable with RCAs can be called a sub cable. As you learned by hooking the sub up with the red and white connectors from the player cable, it isn't absolutely necessary that the sub connection be with a coaxial cable, although that's what's usually suggested because it has better shielding against interference.

When I mentioned those two online sources, I didn't mean that you shouldn't just go over to RadioShack if that would be more convenient(and save shipping expenses). They'll have coaxial and other cables of suitable length with RCAs. As far as length, be sure to get it long enough to reach the best sub position, which probably is the corner. That's enough for the moment.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



Top
#23252 - 10/30/03 12:30 AM Re: Speaker cable
Josh784 Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 10/15/03
Posts: 23
Thanks John, that cleared alot of things up.

Top
#23253 - 11/26/03 09:40 PM Re: Speaker cable
slownlo Offline
buff

Registered: 09/14/03
Posts: 44
Loc: San francisco, CA
Get a grip kids and play nicely....(lol)

Top
#23254 - 12/18/03 09:08 PM Re: Speaker cable
golfdawg Offline
regular

Registered: 12/17/03
Posts: 5
We had some extra CAT 5 Network cable at work so I made some DIY speaker cables for my M80's terminated with soldered on spades. I followed the TNT Triple T (search it and you will find it)design with the variation that makes the woofers get larger cables. IMO it sounds awesome. For the cost of 12 gold plated spades and some time it was definately worth it. Always bi-wire if possible too. just my 2 cents.

Top
#23255 - 12/18/03 10:58 PM Re: Speaker cable
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16280
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
golfdawg,

You're going to get an earful on your "always biwire" opinion. I might as well start the avalanche, though.

Biwiring has been shown to be electrically equivalent to using one thicker wire. There is absolutely no difference -- other than the one created in your own head.

Just my (and the majority of the other regulars here) 2 cents.
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

Top
#23256 - 12/18/03 11:36 PM Re: Speaker cable
Haoleb Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/25/02
Posts: 1488
Loc: Maine
The only thing about those CAT5 recipies is that the high capacitance of the cat 5 cable will oscillate some amps. Especially on longer runs.
_________________________
Haoleb's Audio/DIY Website

Top
#23257 - 12/19/03 03:14 AM Re: Speaker cable
golfdawg Offline
regular

Registered: 12/17/03
Posts: 5
Yeah, I probably should have kept my trap shut on the bi-wiring. You can check out some tests that cable master Jon Risch did on bi-wiring on his site http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/page7.htm and make your own decisions. The CAT 5's do have high cap but the output stages of most modern amps don't have a problem with it.

Anyway I figured I would find out for myself since I had some free CAT 5. Anyone who likes DIY stuff should give a try and make their own judgements. I love my M80's and will leave my cable thoughts to audioasylum.com

Top
#23258 - 12/19/03 01:05 PM Re: Speaker cable
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16280
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
Interesting link golfdawg (http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/page7.htm). Would anyone with more electrical knowledge than me care to comment on it?
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

Top
#23259 - 12/19/03 01:15 PM Re: Speaker cable
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4829
Loc: western canada
No electrical knowledge is required.
Just common sense.
How does a single electrical signal from the receiver carrying full frequency info magically get split into 2 distinct signals carrying separate frequencies within the same wire?
The wire has no intelligence, no circuitry at the split point.
However, the crossovers in the speakers do because that is what they were designed to do.
So how does biwired wire manage to accomplish such a feat?

The concept of biwiring exceeds the laws of physics, period.
Merry Christmas.
_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

Top
#23260 - 12/19/03 01:24 PM Re: Speaker cable
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16280
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
Just speculation, but would the crossover circuitry (which when biwired is separate for the woofer and tweeter sections) affect the current on wire?

In other words, since the wires are actually touching on the amplifier end, wouldn't the current favor the less resistive path?
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

Top
#23261 - 12/19/03 01:24 PM Re: Speaker cable
spiffnme Offline
axiomite

Registered: 04/01/03
Posts: 5214
Loc: Los Angeles
Here, here Chess.

I had a salesman at The Good Guys tell me that the speakers he was trying to sell me were bi-wireable. "That improves the sound 40%!". I told him I did believe bi-wireing improved the sound, and asked where he came up with the 40% number. His response was the it indeed improves the sound 40%..."everyone knows that".

What a putz.


_________________________
"A nation cannot prosper long, when it favors only the prosperous." -President Barack Obama

Top
#23262 - 12/19/03 01:38 PM Re: Speaker cable
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4829
Loc: western canada
In reply to:

In other words, since the wires are actually touching on the amplifier end, wouldn't the current favor the less resistive path?



And if it did, what exactly would that do to the sound quality of the driver being fed the lesser signal b/c it has the more resistive path?
If anything, it would colour the signal such that the driver would not play appropriately (these are analog signals so signal strength matters, not the digital type where signal strength would not matter).
Now who the hell wants that?
_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

Top
#23263 - 12/19/03 01:44 PM Re: Speaker cable
mwc Offline
aficionado

Registered: 07/21/02
Posts: 958
Loc: Texas(DFW)..that country to th...
In reply to:

wouldn't the current favor the less resistive path?



Yes but only after the the cable has been properly broken in and only after the electrons have worn a comfortable path through the wire. Sort of like water flowing down hill where it erodes the weak earth and goes around the rocks and stuff. But If the electrons are allowed to pool up at the end, then the cable will not sound good because the electrons will be stagnating....you see.









_________________________
*Does your train of thought have a caboose?*

Top
#23264 - 12/19/03 02:00 PM Re: Speaker cable
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16280
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
chess,

I'm not trying to defend bi-wiring at all. I believe it's a waste of wire. What I am trying to do is understand the graphs on that webpage. I agree with you that, if anything, the unequal resistivities of the two wire paths would have an negative effect on the sound.
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

Top
#23265 - 12/19/03 03:48 PM Re: Speaker cable
golfdawg Offline
regular

Registered: 12/17/03
Posts: 5
If you're bored you can read Jon Risch's article (long and technical) on bi-wiring here: http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/biwiring.htm

Take it for what it's worth, I think cables are a personal thing. All I know is Axiom Speakers are excellent.

Top
#23266 - 12/19/03 04:29 PM Re: Speaker cable
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16280
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
golfdawg,

That article contains some dubious information. I'll concentrate on the most blatant example here:
In reply to:

The situation is such that when the full range musical signal is applied to the terminals of a full-range speaker system, the woofer only gets sent low frequency signals, and the tweeter only gets sent high frequency signals. Once the crossover networks have been electrically separated, they still continue to function in the same manner, having a low impedance in their passband of application. This means that if separate speaker cables are hooked up for the woofer and it's portion of the network, and the tweeter, and it's portion of the network, not only have the speakers and the frequency's directed and divided for them, but the two separate speaker cables will now also carry different signals, the woofer cable mostly the lows, and the tweeter cable mostly the highs.



Picture the binding posts on a biwirable speaker. Now, think of the jumpers connecting the tweeter and woofer posts as just another length of cable -- that's all a jumper is, anyway. So even when you haven't biwired, you're still using two cables.

Now remove the jumper and run two cables to the speaker (i.e. biwire them). The only difference here is that the "jumper" is now in fact the terminal on the amplifier to which both wires are connected. You've simply moved the point where both wires touch closer to the amp.

So, continuing with this image, would a speaker still be considered bi-wired if the point where one wire split into two was one quarter of the way between the amp and the speaker? Halfway? 3/4 of the way? 9/10 of the way?

Think about it.


Edited by pmbuko (12/19/03 04:38 PM)
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

Top
#23267 - 12/19/03 06:05 PM Re: Speaker cable
Saturn Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/21/02
Posts: 1041
Loc: Toronto Ontario Canuck
Peter;

Of all the posts of bi-wire in all my readings this many years yours is the only one that made me clue in on that point. Consider me a non believer of bi-wire. Bi-amping though is another story....
_________________________
http://www.quadloft.com/hometheater- new HT

Top
#23268 - 12/19/03 06:53 PM Re: Speaker cable
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16280
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
To borrow spiffnme's phrase from a recent post, I had a moment of clarity and thought I'd share my insights.
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

Top
#23269 - 12/19/03 11:13 PM Re: Speaker cable
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10395
Right, Peter. The crossover circuitry for the woofer and tweeter is always separate; bi-wiring has nothing to do with it. The wires carry the full frequency signals until they've been through the speaker crossover and it doesn't matter whether the wires get split at the amp output terminal or just before entering the woofer and tweeter sections of the crossover.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



Top
#23270 - 12/19/03 11:21 PM Re: Speaker cable
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17782
Loc: NoVA
As for bi-amping, have a gander at this article.
_________________________
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

Top
#23271 - 12/19/03 11:52 PM Re: Speaker cable
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4829
Loc: western canada
Is it me or does everyone hear that echo in here?
_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

Top
#23272 - 12/20/03 12:17 AM Re: Speaker cable
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17782
Loc: NoVA
Is it me or does everyone...

Oh. Sorry....
_________________________
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

Top
#23273 - 12/20/03 08:41 AM Re: Speaker cable
twodan19 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 12/20/02
Posts: 624
Loc: Pembroke, Massachusetts
how about coiling large lengths of speaker wires to the fronts placed in front of the sub for reveberation effects. imagine the wire vibrating and really exciting the signals to the speakers...or maybe too much coffee already this morning

Top
Page 1 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >



Moderator:  alan, Amie, Andrew, axiomadmin, Brent, Debbie, Ian, Jc 

Home  |  Corporate Info  |  Products  |  Message Board  |  FAQs  |  Warranty  |  Site Map  |  Privacy Statement   |  Contact Us

©2014 Colquhoun Audio Laboratories Limited
All Rights Reserved.