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#241378 - 01/19/09 12:20 AM Re: ..WHAT DO I DO--M22 OR M50 [Re: fredk]
TheFactor Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 01/16/09
Posts: 39
Loc: Oregon
\:o lol
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Digms SVSSUB ELITE

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#241381 - 01/19/09 12:22 AM Re: ..WHAT DO I DO--M22 OR M50 [Re: fredk]
TheFactor Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 01/16/09
Posts: 39
Loc: Oregon
 Originally Posted By: fredk
It is hard to say withought having listened to both as to how subtle the difference is. Subtle is a very relative term.

The M50 is the only speaker I did not audition when at Axiom, so I can't even tell you what difference I perceived. Perhaps most of my aversion to the M50 comes from listening to the Paradigm Monitor 7 vs anything in the Studio line. There was a BIG difference there and I did not like the 'laid back' (read muffled) sound of the Monitor 7.

I personally like to hear the string plucks and the details of a bass string vibration. That addition of texture is the difference between sounds good and sound real. It is what makes the speaker start to sound transparent: disappear so that you hear music from a band, not speakers. That starts to come through in the M60 and comes through in spades on the M80. I do not know how much of it comes through on the M50.

That is one of the differences I noticed between the M60 and M22. The upper end on the M22 was more transparent. I would imagine the difference would be more pronounced between the M22 and M50.

The down side of all this detail is that poor recordings will sound noticably poor. I notice it with two of my favourite recordings: Yes, Close To the Edge and Yes, Fragile.

I do not know if my ramblings are confusing or helping at this point so I'll stop. ;\)
Youve made some excellent points !!!!
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Digms SVSSUB ELITE

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#241389 - 01/19/09 03:05 AM Re: ..WHAT DO I DO--M22 OR M50 [Re: oldlamps]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
 Originally Posted By: oldlamps

Ramble on....I think after all the advice and such Ill give up on the M22 and at least go with a floor speaker..probably the M60


Don’t give up on the M22s yet. In my opinion when matched with a subwoofer they rival the M80s matched with a subwoofer the M22s are that good. I’ve compared them both paired with a subwoofers and found that the only thing the M80+sub had over the M22+sub was more impact/punch around the 100Hz to 200Hz range. I only noticed this with bass heavy music (most of which I don‘t like), and some scenes in action movies when played loud. Whereas the M22s actually seemed a little more accurate sounding and also had better imaging.

I went through the same rationalization as below in choosing to upgrade from the M22s to the M80s for my initial “mains” purchase.

 Originally Posted By: doormat

I wonder how much better the 60s/80s would be..."


 Originally Posted By: fredk

I use the stand argument to talk myself out of M22s and into M60s. Then I went and bought M80s.


However, if I had it to do over again I wouldn’t hesitate to buy the M22s+sub over the M80s+sub for the 12x20 listening area I had in a 20x20 room. And if I ever needed the use of tower speakers up front (larger room, more punch) I would buy the towers and move the M22s to the back as rears in a 7.1 setup or just use them elsewhere as outstanding bookshelf speakers.

Unless you plan to listen to 2 channel music w/o a subwoofer or intend to use a lower than normal 80Hz crossover with your mains then the M22s will give you much more “bang-for-your-buck.” If you always plan on using a subwoofer, even for music, crossed over at 80Hz then IMHO your pretty much just turning your tower speakers into large overpriced bookshelf speakers.

Build or buy inexpensive stands locally and the M22s become even more cost effective. Nothing against tower speakers I own 3 M80s but most people, probably me too, just don’t need towers and would be better served by getting high quality bookshelf speakers and a subwoofer or two.
_________________________
3M80 2M22 6QS8 2M2 1EP500 Sony BDP-S590 Panny-7000 Onkyo-3007 Carada-134 Xbox Buttkicker AS-EQ1

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#241394 - 01/19/09 05:28 AM Re: ..WHAT DO I DO--M22 OR M50 [Re: grunt]
BoB/335 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 12/26/08
Posts: 505
So I was going to cross off the sub but now I should just cross off the M80's.

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#241396 - 01/19/09 07:34 AM Re: ..WHAT DO I DO--M22 OR M50 [Re: grunt]
BoB/335 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 12/26/08
Posts: 505
 Originally Posted By: grunt


Don’t give up on the M22s yet. In my opinion when matched with a subwoofer they rival the M80s matched with a subwoofer the M22s are that good.

However, if I had it to do over again I wouldn’t hesitate to buy the M22s+sub over the M80s+sub for the 12x20 listening area I had in a 20x20 room.

Unless you plan to listen to 2 channel music w/o a subwoofer




Up until now my recent previous posts were half in jest. Those are some strong statements above. Starting from the bottom up, I was originally planning on listening to music without a sub. I mentioned about 2 weeks ago how I had a perception that a sub added too much bass and that a good full range speaker was suppose to have a more "natural" bass. (or at least that was the thinking 25 years ago)

Still going from the bottom up, the last thing I want to say is "if I had to do it all over again". That is the reason why I torture myself on these forums all day. (well not ALL day) The more I'm on the forums the more I second guess myself. I've upped my budget so many times I can't keep track. oldlamps you're NOT alone!

And last but not least: the M22's with a sub "rivals" the M80's with a sub. My room layout is pretty lousy. The M80's are very deep. The speaker on the left will have concern at being too close to the wall. The speaker on the right will almost be out in a walkway. Didn't think much about bookshelves. I went from thinking about the Orb speaker to full blown towers. Figuring in the footprint and expense of stands just seemed to make better sense to go for the towers. Not I'm not so sure.

One of the good (or bad depending on how you look at it) things about the wait time from the Outlet Store is the time you have to iron everything out.

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#241397 - 01/19/09 08:54 AM Re: ..WHAT DO I DO--M22 OR M50 [Re: grunt]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7143
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
However, if I had it to do over again I wouldn’t hesitate to buy the M22s+sub over the M80s+sub for the 12x20 listening area I had in a 20x20 room.

For the most part I do not beat myself up on this one, but I somethimes wonder.

I still remember differences between the M22 and the M80. The most striking one was how much more forward the M22 was. That really surprised me. I do not see it as a negative, just something I was not expecting.

I think that the M80, with its dual tweeters, had a little more detail than the M22. Memory is a funny thing though. I would love to have the opportunity to do level matched a/b comparisons again.

I never thought of looking locally for less expensive stands and the stand was the biggest thing that pushed me to look at floor standers. If I was not in an apartment, it would have been easy for me to build my own stands, but the inconvenience of finding space for such a project eliminated it from available options.

All that said, I still really like all 3 speakers, so no matter which you choose you are not really loosing.
_________________________
Fred

-------
Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#241456 - 01/19/09 02:36 PM Re: ..WHAT DO I DO--M22 OR M50 [Re: fredk]
oldlamps Offline
buff

Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 40
The stands for the M22 can be had for 50.00 its the ones for the QS4 that gets me..thats a new speaker price..the wife dosent want them on the walls so I need the stands..just seems like thats a silly price for something like that

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#241516 - 01/19/09 06:37 PM Re: ..WHAT DO I DO--M22 OR M50 [Re: oldlamps]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
 Originally Posted By: oldlamps

The stands for the M22 can be had for 50.00 its the ones for the QS4 that gets me..thats a new speaker price..the wife dosent want them on the walls so I need the stands..just seems like thats a silly price for something like that

Someone once posted pictures of some nice DIY stands for QS4/8s but I’ve never been able to find them again. Maybe I saw them on another forum. Anyway if your at all handy you can make some very nice ones real cheap assuming you already have some tools handy.

 Originally Posted By: fredk

I think that the M80, with its dual tweeters, had a little more detail than the M22. Memory is a funny thing though. I would love to have the opportunity to do level matched a/b comparisons again.

I found the opposite that the M22s had a little more detail at the 65dB to 75dB I usually listen at. Where the M80s dominated all the competition for me was when the volume was turned up. Only the M80s retained the detail while all other speakers I listened to had the lower frequencies start dominating.

 Originally Posted By: fredk

For the most part I do not beat myself up on this one, but I somethimes wonder.

No regrets here either as I would have upgraded to M80s when I bought a house anyway which was the deciding factor in just getting them upfront. I didn’t want to end up with a couple M22s sitting around if I didn’t want to use them as rears. However, now I know I would have been very happy having the M22s here in the apartment and even if I didn’t use them as rears would gladly use them anywhere else as mains. In fact they are my mains now in my temporary bedroom setup.

 Originally Posted By: BoB/335

Up until now my recent previous posts were half in jest. Those are some strong statements above. Starting from the bottom up, I was originally planning on listening to music without a sub. I mentioned about 2 weeks ago how I had a perception that a sub added too much bass and that a good full range speaker was suppose to have a more "natural" bass. (or at least that was the thinking 25 years ago)


A subwoofer like a full range speaker will only play the bass that is available to it from the song being played it won’t add anything to the music unless you are running it hot (upping the volume on the sub) to get more bass.

There is an argument for having stereo sources for bass even though it’s generally considered to be non directional at 80Hz and below. However, I only think this “need” applies to a small group of people and if one is going to be this serious then I would why bother with towers, just get bookshelves + stereo subwoofers. ;\)

There’s a huge amount of information on the bookshelf + subwoofer vs tower debate on the internet which I won’t bother to repeat here. After comparing the M22+sub vs the M80 and the M80+sub it’s my opinion that for multi use systems (music, HT, gaming) most people 95%+ are better off with bookshelf + sub systems.
 Originally Posted By: BoB/335

So I was going to cross off the sub but now I should just cross off the M80's.


If you already have a subwoofer as part of your order I suggest you just add 2 M22s to what you already have ordered. The only way you will know which you prefer is to compare them yourself. Axiom estimates 30 USD/ pair of bookshelves and 60 USD/ pair of towers shipped back but you can call Axiom and they can tell you how much it should actually cost, a relatively small price to pay for peace of mind.
_________________________
3M80 2M22 6QS8 2M2 1EP500 Sony BDP-S590 Panny-7000 Onkyo-3007 Carada-134 Xbox Buttkicker AS-EQ1

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#241528 - 01/19/09 09:33 PM Re: ..WHAT DO I DO--M22 OR M50 [Re: grunt]
Zimm Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/08/08
Posts: 1361
Loc: New Orleans
It seems to me that one of driving factors in the sat+sub v. tower debate is the quality of the sub and size of the sat. Integration is the key. Assuming a prefect roll off from the sat to the sub, it should sound better as the sub goes lower than the tower. That takes quality at both ends, and that aint cheap. But out of the theoretical and into reality, I think towers are a much safer bet on music because the tower is designed to be intergraded fully down to the bottom of the tower's range. Good speakers should do that well. Sat+sub makes a complicated formula that changes in each home. HT, you can easily go either way. Good luck figuring out what range was missing in the two second sound blurb that bounced through that range in a movie score.
_________________________
Panny 3000 PJ, 118" Carada, Denon 3300, PS3, Axiom QS8, PSB 5T, B&W sub, levitating speaker wire

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#241548 - 01/19/09 10:52 PM Re: ..WHAT DO I DO--M22 OR M50 [Re: Zimm]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
 Originally Posted By: Zimm

That takes quality at both ends, and that aint cheap


A poor subwoofer integrated with tower speakers won’t sound good either. So assuming your buying a good subwoofer no matter what, then you can get likely get awesome sounding bookshelf speakers for the same price you could get good sounding towers.

 Originally Posted By: Zimm

I think towers are a much safer bet on music because the tower is designed to be intergraded fully down to the bottom of the tower's range.


One of the assumptions I made was that the bookshelf+sub combo was based on a multi-purpose system. I agree that adding yet another crossover to the mix complicates things but even for music an integrated sub+bookshelf system can often outdo towers in many if not most untreated rooms do to more flexible placement options allowing the bookshelves to be best placed for imaging and the subwoofer for flatter bass response.

Again there is a valid if not somewhat esoteric argument for stereo bass. But without using treatments and something like a BFD most people would likely get better results by using multiple subwoofer placement to even out the bass in their room while using bookshelf speakers for their often better spaciousness and sound imaging potential rather than using towers or stereo subwoofers.

 Originally Posted By: Zimm

Good luck figuring out what range was missing in the two second sound blurb that bounced through that range in a movie score.


Assuming your using a subwoofer for HT as most people do then you still have the same potential for missing information at the crossover to the subwoofer with towers as you do with a bookshelf speakers. The tower does give you the option to use a lower crossover and push any potential missing information lower but it’s still missing, plus bass room resonance issues start becoming more complicated when playing tower full range.

Clearly there is no one correct answer but for most people (maybe not be those of us who hang out on audio forums) buying tower speakers is likely a waste of money, and due to placement constraints and costs may not sound as good as a bookshelf + subwoofer solution.
_________________________
3M80 2M22 6QS8 2M2 1EP500 Sony BDP-S590 Panny-7000 Onkyo-3007 Carada-134 Xbox Buttkicker AS-EQ1

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