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#246282 - 02/11/09 11:06 AM Energy Speakers
Zeddy Offline
newbie

Registered: 02/11/09
Posts: 4
Hi all,

Ive been lurking around here for some time and have finally deceided to make a post as I found this fourm to have a lot of knowledgeable posters. Ive been very interested in the Axiom Epic 80 500 speakers in a 5.1 setup for some time now. I finally saved up the cash for them when my buddy called and said he could me the following Energy 7.1 setup at an amazing price:

RC-70 Towers
RC-LCR Center
RC-R surrounds
RC-R surrounds
ESW V10

Total for this package at Futureshop is just over $3600 + taxes, which would be close to a Epic 80 500 5.1 setup.

My friend said he could get the Energy package for approximately $2700, which seems like a sweet deal.

I have no experience with Energy, but have never really heard anything bad about them. Has anyone compared them to the M80's? I know someone will ask about room size ect, right now Im renting and the room will change but Im looking for something to future proof my system so no matter where I go I will have enough and not have to worry about upgrading. Also the system will be used 80% movies, and only 20% for music. Money is not really an issue, I would rather spend the extra cash to get a better product.

I look forward to hearing all the replies.

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#246286 - 02/11/09 11:21 AM Re: Energy Speakers [Re: Zeddy]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Simply put, buy the Axioms, more detail and tighter sounding bass, IMO. Are the Axiom's worth $1000 more, only you can make that decision, for some they wouldn't be, to me they are, the better sub alone is worth the extra costs.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#246295 - 02/11/09 11:47 AM Re: Energy Speakers [Re: Zeddy]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6609
Loc: It's all about the location.
Welcome, Zeddy, I'm sure you'll get plenty of input from the guys here. I am currently waiting on some Axiom speakers (M80s, VP150, QS8s) after auditioning a number of speaker brands including Energy.
The Energy speakers, to me, and I'm sure you'll hear from some other members here, were felt to be rather 'muffled' sounding or 'muted' when compared to some of the other speakers I auditioned (Paradigm, Monitor Audio to name a couple). I was looking at Energys at FS on one of their sales before Christmas and came away quite dissappointed by their sound. Having said that, Energys top of the line "Veritas" have been compared to Axioms and are said to sound similar, the difference of course being that the Veritas are easily double the $$ of the Axioms(M80).
I feel very confident saying that the RC series of Energy speakers are not comparable to Axiom speakers. (I'll let others tell you more about the "Axiom Sound" as like many I have ordered mine on faith based on very positive reviews). Axioms are considered to be detailed, like Paradigm or Monitor Audios, but at a lower price point.
Now, if you're on a budget, you may want to do what some have done, you could choose M22s, M60s or M80s for your fronts...they all have their own strengths but have the "Axiom Sound" at different price points. The VP100 or 150 could be used in any of those combinations and the QS8 is one of the most highly rated surrounds in the industry. As for subs, Axioms are very good but if you want to(as I have) you could perhaps pick up a deal on one of the many other brands and be satisfied as there are many subs to choose from in the $500-800 range(or more dep on budget).
If you order through the Factory outlet you'll get a 10% discount and a further 5% if you get 5 items. (you can also save on shipping if you are able to pickup). Also you don't pay PST at Axiom.
Bang-per-buck I don't think you could beat Axiom and even though $2700 sounds like a good deal for the Energys I would implore you to listen to a few other speakers to see what kind of sound you like because a "good deal" could be a "bad deal" if you don't like the sound. Go and audition the Energys and take your time comparing them to other speakers using some music you're familiar with, so you can compare them, you may in fact prefer them, but I just felt they sounded "cloudy".
_________________________
Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.

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#246320 - 02/11/09 01:02 PM Re: Energy Speakers [Re: Adrian]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13333
Loc: Iowa
Zeddy, are you ordering from the Axiom Factory Outlet to save 10% plust 5%? Can't help you on Energy, but I liked my Axioms better than B&W 700 series, which are expensive.
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#246321 - 02/11/09 01:03 PM Re: Energy Speakers [Re: Zeddy]
lhulls Offline
veteran

Registered: 10/13/06
Posts: 139
Loc: Niagara Region, Canada
Hello Zeddy
I've also listened to the RC series and found them to be comparable to the Axioms. In fact I would not consider the C series or the RC series laid back. Even though Energy speakers are built in China, (Axiom’s drivers are manufactured in China), they are still designed and engineered in Canada, which is always a good thing when you’re considering loudspeakers. I own a set of Axiom M50’s, and they are wonderful, but Axiom does not have a monopoly on good sounding speakers. In your quest for audio nirvana, you might also consider PSB’s. Keep in mind, whatever you decide that you have to live with these loudspeakers long after the price is forgotten. So whichever you choose, enjoy.
I cannot comment on the subs as I haven’t heard either.
\:\)
_________________________
Those who have long enjoyed such privileges as we enjoy forget in time that men died to win them.

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#246328 - 02/11/09 01:39 PM Re: Energy Speakers [Re: lhulls]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8288
Loc: Tacoma
Since your material leans heavily towards movies, you will probably enjoy having a VERY capable subwoofer. The sub does NOT have to be the same brand as the rest of the speakers to "blend" or be effective. I have heard volumes of praise for the Axiom subs (and others from Hsu, SVS, etc.). I have not heard the same level of excitement about the Energy subs, which seem to be kind of an marketing-driven afterthought for them. I am absolutely unconvinced that the smallish 10" Energy sub you mentioned can compete with the Axiom EP350, much less the EP500.

I think the MSRP for that system is pretty inflated, especially the towers and center. You have MANY choices for that much money. You could get custom finish Axioms for that price.

I'm not too keen on the design of the surround. While it is an odd-shaped box reminiscent of the Axiom design, I'm just puzzled about mounting the midranges on different planes than the tweeter and woofer.

Now, like Adrian and other said, if you listen to them and are seduced, go forth and be happy. But this is the Axiom forum, so you're going to get a lot of responses that urge you to also give Axiom speakers a chance. I feel pretty confident than an Epic 60 500 system would be more satisfying than the Energy system you're considering.
_________________________
bibere usque ad hilaritatem

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#246338 - 02/11/09 03:06 PM Re: Energy Speakers [Re: Zeddy]
alan Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 3187
Loc: Toronto/New York/Dwight
Hi Zeddy,

And welcome. To give you a little more background, it's true that Energy was once a Canadian speaker company that built some quite good speakers, as well as a line called Energy Veritas (very expensive) that are comparable to Axiom's floorstanding models. In the comparisons I made, the Veritas was slightly muted through the midrange compared to the M80 v2.

The RC series was decent but not as linear or uncolored as the Axioms.

Energy is now owned by Klipsch, and I don't know what changes have been made. I do know production was moved to China.

Regards,
_________________________
Alan Lofft,
Axiom Resident Expert

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#246404 - 02/12/09 09:10 AM Re: Energy Speakers [Re: alan]
Zeddy Offline
newbie

Registered: 02/11/09
Posts: 4
Well thanks for all the quick replies, they really did help. Im thinking of maybe ordering from the factory outlet to save a few bucks, as I dont think my Denon 988 Receiver can run at 4ohms to power the M80's so it will need to be replaced.

Ive been very happy with Denon, and Im not going to ask what type of receiver to get as there are countless threads already on that topic. Although I am very curious about the new Yamaha RX-Z7. it looks like a beast. Anyone have any experience or thoughts with this model?

Ive also heard Pioneer Elite has a new receiver coming out but its not on their site, or maybe Im just misinformed.

Anyway thanks again for the replies and information, I looke forward to hearing from everyone again and in the future.

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#246406 - 02/12/09 09:16 AM Re: Energy Speakers [Re: Zeddy]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.

Your Denon will be fine with the M80s if that's what you choose.
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#246428 - 02/12/09 10:19 AM Re: Energy Speakers [Re: Zeddy]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
 Originally Posted By: Zeddy
Ive also heard Pioneer Elite has a new receiver coming out but its not on their site, or maybe Im just misinformed.

I don't know about the Elite line, but regular Pioneer has the '19 series of receivers waiting in the wings. Usually the Elites follow a little bit later.

Audioholics has a test review of the SC-07, a mid-range Elite model. It didn't respond well to a broadband test into a 4 Ohm load, but the report went on to say musical content into an actual speaker should be OK.

I have a 1018, their current top-of-the-line standard model. If someone wants to give me a pair of M80s, I'll be happy to report how it handles. ;\)
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
-Chris

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#246429 - 02/12/09 10:23 AM Re: Energy Speakers [Re: ClubNeon]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6720
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.

Bring it here to IL. and we'll give it a try \:\)
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#246452 - 02/12/09 11:49 AM Re: Energy Speakers [Re: ClubNeon]
nickbuol Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4456
Loc: Marion, IA
I have a mid-level Elite (4 year old model) and others have said that it works great with M80s (I have M60s), so it is interesting that a current model would have issues. The below information came from Audioholics web site (but was linked on their web site from another site), which is also where there bench test of continuous test tones over a 4 ohm load had issues, but "real world" as they put it tests came out just fine.

The SC-07 is THX Ultra II certified, and that spec states:
 Quote:
In 1999, THX launched THX Select, and renamed what had previously been called just THX to THX Ultra.

Whereas THX/THX Ultra was specified and designed for rooms "up to" 3000 ft3, THX Select took that requirement down to 2000 ft3. Both the requirements of the amplification and the output of the speakers were scaled back appropriately, placing THX in the hands of a whole new audience who could not have otherwise afforded it.

When it comes to amplification, continuous output tests are run on up to one, four, and five channels (simultaneously) of an Ultra product, but only one at a time on Select. With all products, the dynamic amplifier tests are done on up to all available channels. Ultra amplifiers must be stable on all channels to 3.2 ohms and swing an 18A peak, while Select products must be stable into 4 ohms (front channel) and 8 ohms (surrounds), and swing peaks of 12.5A and 6.2A respectively.


Source: THX Ultra Specs

I've had nothing but great luck with the Pioneer products I've owned. There is definitely some "brand loyalty" for me, however, I would look hard at another brand if I needed to drive 4 ohms just because I would rather play it safe. I am sure that there wouldn't be any real world issues, but still...
_________________________
http://ht.buol.us
M60s, VP180, VP150, QS8s, SVS 20-39PCi, HTPC, JVC RS45, Onkyo TX-NR709, Shakers

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#246490 - 02/12/09 02:41 PM Re: Energy Speakers [Re: nickbuol]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
The 988 will run the M80s with out breaking a sweat. Denon is one of the brands that Axiom recommends to drive the m80s as Denon has always used very good P/S and are more than capable of driving the M80s and in my experience with my older 1804, it ran the M80s just as well as my 3808.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#246500 - 02/12/09 03:13 PM Re: Energy Speakers [Re: jakewash]
Zimm Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/08/08
Posts: 1361
Loc: New Orleans
I have been curious about the THX eval of AVRs. I was surprised to see some lower level Onkyos with THX certs. I don't put much value in a THX cert for higher end units as they all meets the needs, but I was surprised some of the lower units could meets the requirements. Or, does that mean THX criteria is just that easy and their stamp of approval really is just marketing hype? Your quote sounds like real evaluation, if 18A, 12.5A, and 6.2A are significant hurdles. Anybody care to explain the significance of those tests to use lay folk?
_________________________
Panny 3000 PJ, 118" Carada, Denon 3300, PS3, Axiom QS8, PSB 5T, B&W sub, levitating speaker wire

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#246504 - 02/12/09 03:23 PM Re: Energy Speakers [Re: Zimm]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Select means they have a lesser P/S in them, as evidenced by the specs, which makes them easier/cheaper to produce and achieve the THX certification. Ultra is now said to be for large rooms which makes sense as a larger room requires more power to attain reference levels.

THX has always just been a guide for those in HT to try to maintain a certain level of quality in the products. For me, I know Denons install good P/S and have very few issues across their entire line up so I do not look for THX with their avr's, other manufacturers I am not so sure of. The THX cert. means I can be assured, the avr can run my M80s to reference volumes in the designated room sizes as found on the THX web site.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#246509 - 02/12/09 03:32 PM Re: Energy Speakers [Re: jakewash]
Zimm Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/08/08
Posts: 1361
Loc: New Orleans
 Originally Posted By: jakewash
other manufacturers I am not so sure of. The THX cert. means I can be assured, the avr can run my M80s to reference volumes in the designated room sizes as found on the THX web site.


That is exactly my situation. Do I go to CC and get a bankruptcy deal on a Onkyo 806 with THX certification - not a product I would normally buy - or wait for the Denon 3809CI that I want? So many around here say all the amps are the same and the 806 has all the features I need - really just HDMI switching and Dolby True HD - so why not?

The voice in my head says you get what you pay for and there is a world of difference between a very solid $1500 Denon and a $500 Onkyo. I'm very confused. \:\( So what does the power supply amperage rating mean in real terms. I can push my Denon 3300 to its sonic limits. How could a $500 Onkyo be as good.

And before everyone says get the Onkyo and order the Emotiva Amp, that gets near the Denon price, and I'd rather one box.
_________________________
Panny 3000 PJ, 118" Carada, Denon 3300, PS3, Axiom QS8, PSB 5T, B&W sub, levitating speaker wire

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#246515 - 02/12/09 03:51 PM Re: Energy Speakers [Re: Zimm]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
If the 806 has the features you want, I wouldn't hesitate to get one. If you don't like it you could still resell it for the same amount as $500 is a steal.

The 806 is a very stout performer from the lab testing/reviews, it lacks some of the other features you would be paying for with the 3808, biggest ones being the GUI and network connectivity, for which you pay a premium. Onkyos are also known for running a little warmer than Denons so there must be a few cents saved in heat sink materials etc. Denon has a pretty rock solid image and name, another thing you end up paying for.

806 review


Edited by jakewash (02/12/09 04:10 PM)
Edit Reason: added link to a review
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#246528 - 02/12/09 04:16 PM Re: Energy Speakers [Re: jakewash]
Zimm Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/08/08
Posts: 1361
Loc: New Orleans
Thanks for the site, I had not seen that review. Oh, and my wife does not like you - she says our HT sounds fine so why do I need a new AVR. You won't be getting a Christmas card this year. ;\)
_________________________
Panny 3000 PJ, 118" Carada, Denon 3300, PS3, Axiom QS8, PSB 5T, B&W sub, levitating speaker wire

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#246531 - 02/12/09 04:26 PM Re: Energy Speakers [Re: jakewash]
Zimm Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/08/08
Posts: 1361
Loc: New Orleans
I was on the way out the door, then I read the review...

 Quote:
The bottom line is that if you have nothing else, the 806's video processor is nice, especially for something like HD Cable or Satellite boxes which at best turn out their native 1080i60 signal format. For hard core DVD aficionados there is no question an Oppo 983 player is still your best bet, yet not "passed through" the Onkyo. Why? The 806 is NOT capable of unaltered HDMI repeating! At the very least it drops below black (even if the source is component analogue video).

Ultimately you are better running source straight to display, but that is going to be a problem for Blu-Ray since you MUST run it through the Onkyo in order for it to strip the HD audio from the HDMI stream. This could very well be a deal breaker for many users and we hope that Onkyo can repair this flaw via firmware in the future (although without knowing the root cause we cannot say whether that is even a possibility).


Houston, we have problem. My main goal in the upgrade (or sidways grade, I guess) is to add HDMI switching. If the video signal is not able to pass through without being degraded, I'm not buying. Thanks again for the information, saved me much frustration as I would have found this out post-purchase.
_________________________
Panny 3000 PJ, 118" Carada, Denon 3300, PS3, Axiom QS8, PSB 5T, B&W sub, levitating speaker wire

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#246541 - 02/12/09 05:58 PM Re: Energy Speakers [Re: Zimm]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10886
Loc: Central NH
So does this mean Jay gets his Christmas card?
_________________________
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::

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#246564 - 02/12/09 08:06 PM Re: Energy Speakers [Re: MarkSJohnson]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8288
Loc: Tacoma
That's why I got an 805.
_________________________
bibere usque ad hilaritatem

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#246609 - 02/13/09 12:12 AM Re: Energy Speakers [Re: Zimm]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10389
Charles, that voice in your head that says "You get what you pay for" may be that of a desperate seller of high-priced goods or services who has no objective way of justifying himself. A more detailed lab test of the 806 in connection with the HomeTheater Magazine review is found here . Consider also the 876 which has similarly excellent amplification and the superior Reon video processor.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#246672 - 02/13/09 10:59 AM Re: Energy Speakers [Re: JohnK]
Zimm Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/08/08
Posts: 1361
Loc: New Orleans
 Originally Posted By: JohnK
Charles, that voice in your head that says "You get what you pay for" may be that of a desperate seller of high-priced goods or services who has no objective way of justifying himself. A more detailed lab test of the 806 in connection with the HomeTheater Magazine review is found here . Consider also the 876 which has similarly excellent amplification and the superior Reon video processor.


Agreed, the voice is unreliable at times. But your suggestion does prove the voice right this time. The 876 is not in the same league, IMO, as the 806. It has higher current abilities, its video sections is, as you mention, very very good. But it cost twice as much. My dilemma was the BB bankruptcy that had an 806 for $500. The 876 is in my group of contenders with the Denon 3809 and Marantz and Integra 8.9, etc. But I was damn impressed with the 806's power output. I noticed in the store how light it was. I was shocked at the power it put out in the test. Relatedly, the Integra (Lexus of Onkyo) website publishes the High Instantaneous Current Capability of its AVRs. Interestingly, the 9.9 has double the current capability of the 7.9. Am I correct that this indicates a much more robust power supply, and thus better headroom? I expect the same goes for the the Onkyo line. I wish Denon would publish this number as I would be interested to compare apples to apples.

Edit:



Edited by Zimm (02/13/09 11:04 AM)
_________________________
Panny 3000 PJ, 118" Carada, Denon 3300, PS3, Axiom QS8, PSB 5T, B&W sub, levitating speaker wire

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#246740 - 02/13/09 02:22 PM Re: Energy Speakers [Re: Zimm]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Yes the higher amperage output indicates a better P/S, there are other things to consider in the amplifier stability equation as well, but a high amp rating is usually a good sign of an amp that can sustain low impedance.

I know what you mean about Denon. I have been searching for a long time to find any lab tests, etc. for some sort of amperage output reading.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#246745 - 02/13/09 02:34 PM Re: Energy Speakers [Re: jakewash]
Zimm Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/08/08
Posts: 1361
Loc: New Orleans
Thanks for the info. And the review you cite does have some interesting numbers. In particular, I am surprised by the Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads at 0.1% distortion of 79.6 watts. That is less than my 10 year old Denon 3300 (I think it made 90 at that test level). These numbers are a far cry from the impression made by the other test showing over 140w at clipping. All this stuff is confusing the crap out of me. Where are the apples???
_________________________
Panny 3000 PJ, 118" Carada, Denon 3300, PS3, Axiom QS8, PSB 5T, B&W sub, levitating speaker wire

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#246755 - 02/13/09 03:00 PM Re: Energy Speakers [Re: Zimm]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Have you seen this lab test of the 3808, just to add even more confusion. \:D
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#246860 - 02/13/09 10:21 PM Re: Energy Speakers [Re: Zimm]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10389
Charles, Dr. Ohm determines how much amperage(no more, no less)is necessary at a given instant, not manufacturer hype about "Instantaneous Current Capability", etc.

The basic 2-channels fully driven FTC-required power rating is more nearly in accord with the realities of actually listening at home, rather than a laboratory torture test driving all channels at full output simultaneously.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#246995 - 02/15/09 12:48 PM Re: Energy Speakers [Re: JohnK]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11202
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
This is unrelated to anything in this thread, but I was surprised to see an Energy Take system (don't know which one, as I didn't look closely) at Costco yesterday. It's just not a brand I expected to see there.

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#247005 - 02/15/09 01:50 PM Re: Energy Speakers [Re: CV]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6609
Loc: It's all about the location.
Energy...Costco....I don't like the sound of that.
_________________________
Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.

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#247222 - 02/16/09 01:39 PM Re: Energy Speakers [Re: CV]
alan Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 3187
Loc: Toronto/New York/Dwight
It might be the Klipsch ownership influence. Or perhaps Klipsch dumped a big stock of Energy Take 5 systems at a discount to Costco. Maybe the Energy Take . . .systems are being replaced?

Regards,

Alan
_________________________
Alan Lofft,
Axiom Resident Expert

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#247291 - 02/16/09 07:30 PM Re: Energy Speakers [Re: alan]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6609
Loc: It's all about the location.
Could be the earlier version of the Take system is at Costco, there is a Take 5.2 system out at the moment.
_________________________
Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.

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#253210 - 03/23/09 03:46 AM Re: Energy Speakers [Re: Adrian]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11202
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
I was back at Costco, and it's the Energy Take 5.1 Classic. There was also a Velodyne 10" sub right below it.

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