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#247134 - 02/16/09 12:51 AM Ideas on 31'L x 23'W room for fronts, 7.1 backs
davekro Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/12/09
Posts: 562
Loc: Discovery Bay, CA
Two opposing things that I think calls for a well thought out compromise. This great room (w/ kitchen and dining room behind listening area) having ≈ 700 sq', and 6,000 cu', is coupled with an amp on the smaller side (Denon 1909, 90 wpc). So the ability (power wise)to go with large fronts to help fill this large area is limited. I am hoping M60's will do an adequate job as fronts. Sides easily will be QS8's. The Axiom rep. concurred that for 7.1 backs located 16' behind primary listening posistion, QS8 reflectives would not get to listeners well. He recommended M2 (5 1/4" drvr) front firing bookshelves. I was surprised he thought the M22's (dual 5 1/4" drvrs) would not add that much and that M2's would do well there.

I know it's more important for rears to match rears and fronts to match fronts. So the question may be somewhat splitting hairs... How well will the M2 5 1/4" drvrs timber match the M60's (dual 6 1/2" mid/bass, one 5 1/4" mid drvr)? Great that the M2 has exactly the same driver and tweeter as the M8 surrounds. Also, what width apart would be a good choice for backs being 16' behind list. pos.? Current rears are on a shelf in corners. During Audyssey set up, you can tell the corner boosts them in a way that does not blend well.

Thanks, Dave
_________________________
Dave

"In theory, practice and theory are the same. In practice they're not."

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#247137 - 02/16/09 12:54 AM Re: Ideas on 31'L x 23'W room for fronts, 7.1 backs [Re: davekro]
davekro Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/12/09
Posts: 562
Loc: Discovery Bay, CA
PS. I wish I would hear from two local people on Axiom's site about listening to their Axiom systems. I did hear from someone 6 hours away. I'll check back with Axiom to verify they sent my info to the correct people.

Have people found that between Axiom and the generous volunteers willing to show their equipment, that people are getting to hear the Axiom speakers?
_________________________
Dave

"In theory, practice and theory are the same. In practice they're not."

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#247141 - 02/16/09 12:59 AM Re: Ideas on 31'L x 23'W room for fronts, 7.1 backs [Re: davekro]
davekro Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/12/09
Posts: 562
Loc: Discovery Bay, CA
PSS. ;o) I forgot to mention subs are not on my list because I have three. A Paradigm Servo 15" and (2) 10" KLH's (from long ago).
_________________________
Dave

"In theory, practice and theory are the same. In practice they're not."

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#247156 - 02/16/09 03:14 AM Re: Ideas on 31'L x 23'W room for fronts, 7.1 backs [Re: davekro]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10388
Dave, I'll add to my reply to your question in the other thread(by the way, that makes it harder to come up with a coherent response)by pointing out that bigger speakers(including Axioms)quite often are more sensitive than smaller ones and so require less, not more, power.

The 6 1/2" M60 drivers aren't "mid/bass", they're entirely bass. The mid-range is handled by the 5 1/4" driver and matches well with the same driver in the M2.

If the back surround speakers in a 7.1 setup are 16' behind the listening position, they should be separated by about that same distance if it's otherwise convenient.
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Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#247163 - 02/16/09 08:35 AM Re: Ideas on 31'L x 23'W room for fronts, 7.1 backs [Re: JohnK]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13333
Loc: Iowa
Dave, my room is 900 sq ft or arount 8100 cu ft. I used to have 60's driven by a Denon 2805 (100w) with no problems, plenty of volume from these efficient speakers.

Have you sent a PM (personal message) to the people close to you? Where are you located, and which people did you send to, it is possible they don't come around the forums that much. We all know each other, so we may be able to help if you tell us where your located.
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#247168 - 02/16/09 09:10 AM Re: Ideas on 31'L x 23'W room for fronts, 7.1 backs [Re: davekro]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7042
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
I am hoping M60's will do an adequate job as fronts.

There is no question that the M60 can fill that space with sound given proper amplification, so I guess you are asking if you have enough amp. The answer to that depends on your objectives.

How loud do you like to listen? How far away from the speakers are you going to be when listening? Listening at reference levels (loud) in your kitchen (which I assume is the farthest point from the speakers) is going to take a lot more power than listening at the same volume 10' away from the speakers.

Given that the M80 is more sensitive than the M60 and draws a 4Ohm load, it will play slightly louder than the M60.

Both the M60 and M80 are quite sensitive, so are good choices for limited power situations.
_________________________
Fred

-------
Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#247205 - 02/16/09 12:38 PM Re: Ideas on 31'L x 23'W room for fronts, 7.1 back [Re: JohnK]
davekro Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/12/09
Posts: 562
Loc: Discovery Bay, CA
 Originally Posted By: JohnK
Dave, I'll add to my reply to your question in the other thread(by the way, that makes it harder to come up with a coherent response)by pointing out that bigger speakers(including Axioms)quite often are more sensitive than smaller ones and so require less, not more, power.

The 6 1/2" M60 drivers aren't "mid/bass", they're entirely bass. The mid-range is handled by the 5 1/4" driver and matches well with the same driver in the M2.

If the back surround speakers in a 7.1 setup are 16' behind the listening position, they should be separated by about that same distance if it's otherwise convenient.


Good reminder on bigger speakers being more efficient, hence louder at a given volume. Given three subs, my fronts and all surrounds being rightly set to 'small' & 80Hz x-over by Audyssey, I see your point on the M60' drivers: dual 6 1/2" 80-200Hz, 5 1/4" 200-2000Hz. M2's: 5 1/4's doing the full 80-2,700Hz, which I guess more importantly closely matches the QS8's 5 1/4's doing 80-2,500Hz. Is it not significant (to timber matching) fronts to surrounds that the 5 1/4" surrounds are not focused on a small freq. range as the front 5 1/4's?


16' separation on backs:
I can do this, but it will put the left rear sandwiched between the top of kitch. cabinets and ceiling (≈ 2" avg above spkr with angled ceiling) and butted against a vent enclosure on one side, with the small space on the other side where ceiling slopes to the side wall about 2' away. Bottom line, this speaker's front grill will not have surfaces to reflect off of except the close sloped ceiling. will th efacct that the 'cabinet' of the speaker is directly next to surfaces on it's bottom and one side?

The rt. back can go anywhere along that sides wall. The next inward opportunity for the lft back is moving ≈2' towards center (on the room center side of the vent enclosure on top of cabinets).
_________________________
Dave

"In theory, practice and theory are the same. In practice they're not."

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#247208 - 02/16/09 01:06 PM Re: Ideas on 31'L x 23'W room for fronts, 7.1 back [Re: SirQuack]
davekro Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/12/09
Posts: 562
Loc: Discovery Bay, CA
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
Dave, my room is 900 sq ft or arount 8100 cu ft. I used to have 60's driven by a Denon 2805 (100w) with no problems, plenty of volume from these efficient speakers.

Have you sent a PM (personal message) to the people close to you? Where are you located, and which people did you send to, it is possible they don't come around the forums that much. We all know each other, so we may be able to help if you tell us where your located.


SirQ,
THANK YOU. this is the first I've heard of someone with a large room using M60' and close to my 90 wpc power. This is very reassuring!

My local Axiom owners:
I thought the only way to initiate contact was diectly thru Axiom (which I did on 2/12). I never thought to search their user ID's on this forum. Great idea! I live in northern Calif. in Discovery Bay. This is ≈ 1 hour drive to the east side of the SF Bay Area. The two owners I was trying to hook up with are:
koiman ... Antioch, CA
gnrajagopal ... Fremont, CA

On 2/12 I did get an email from Peter in southern Ca. 6 1/2 hour drive. I don't know why Axiom pinged so. CA?
I'll try searching the two locals above as soon as I finish reading replying to this thread. :o)
_________________________
Dave

"In theory, practice and theory are the same. In practice they're not."

Top
#247211 - 02/16/09 01:18 PM Re: Ideas on 31'L x 23'W room for fronts, 7.1 back [Re: davekro]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17775
Loc: NoVA
Hi Dave, I'm in Oakland, but my audition times are pretty severely constrained, unless you can wait 3 weeks or so.
_________________________
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#247218 - 02/16/09 01:30 PM Re: Ideas on 31'L x 23'W room for fronts, 7.1 back [Re: fredk]
davekro Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/12/09
Posts: 562
Loc: Discovery Bay, CA
 Originally Posted By: fredk
 Quote:
I am hoping M60's will do an adequate job as fronts.

There is no question that the M60 can fill that space with sound given proper amplification, so I guess you are asking if you have enough amp. The answer to that depends on your objectives.

How loud do you like to listen? How far away from the speakers are you going to be when listening? Listening at reference levels (loud) in your kitchen (which I assume is the farthest point from the speakers) is going to take a lot more power than listening at the same volume 10' away from the speakers.

Given that the M80 is more sensitive than the M60 and draws a 4Ohm load, it will play slightly louder than the M60.

Both the M60 and M80 are quite sensitive, so are good choices for limited power situations.


Fred,
The room distances are:
front of front speakers and DLP screen are 2' from front wall.
main listening pos. is 12' from fr. spkrs/screen.
(surrounds mtd directly to side of lis. pos. and 3' up)
Rear wall is 16' behind list. pos.

I am not concerned about dB levels in kitchen or dining area. I am only concerned with having the list. pos. (12'away) as enveloped as I am able, being limited to 90 wpc and M60 fronts w. M2 backs (I could go M22 backs, but Axiom rep said they would not add much and that the M2's would do fine in this room. ... any thoughts on this?). Side surrounds will be changed from dir. firing WG-150 in-walls (8" bass drvr)to QS8's.

M60's vs. M80's:
I was under the impression that asking the Denon 1909 90 wpc amp to drive a 4 0hm speaker was quite a stretch for this amp. If you know the 1909's specs and disagree, I'd love to hear your take. ALSO having front mains drawing 4 ohm avg when all others (except VP150 at 6ohms) draw 8 ohm avg, would make the front's dominate. I DO NOT want to go there again. I am coming from using huge 15" driver Klipsch Cornwall II's (owned for 26 years) with 100dB sensitivity always dominating my (M2 size) old (90db) center spkr. With all other surrounds @ 90dB sensitiv. as well.
_________________________
Dave

"In theory, practice and theory are the same. In practice they're not."

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