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#249086 - 02/26/09 05:06 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: hietpas]
Micah Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 1789
Loc: Indiana you hoser!!!!
 Originally Posted By: hietpas
Why do pre/pros cost so darned much when receivers can do it all for so much less?


Why? Because separates do it better, period. Most people are happy with an all-in-one unit, and that's just fine. But you won't find an integrated reciever that pushes 500 watts (I'm talking M80 4 ohm units of course) per channel... even 300 watts per channel is a challenge to find under $5000 bucks. But you can find many amps that push between 300 - 500 watts per channel for around a $1000 dollars or less (you can also spend $10,000 bucks on an amp like that... it's up to you).

I'm not saying everyone should go with separates. There are advantages with both. If you find your all-in-one reciever does the job for you then don't sweat it. But the day you buy an external amplifier and listen to your system with it (loud), you will understand.


Edited by Micah (02/26/09 05:14 PM)
_________________________
My Stuff :

M80's
QS8's
VP150
EP800
Denon 4802
Emotiva XPA-3
Samsung BD-P3600
Sharp 65 Inch Aquos LCD

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#249087 - 02/26/09 05:16 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Micah]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16289
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
 Quote:
If you're good at something... never do it for free!

I refuse to become a male prostitute. Just sayin'.
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#249089 - 02/26/09 05:21 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: hietpas]
alan Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 3189
Loc: Toronto/New York/Dwight
Hi hietpas,

Another reason pre-pros and separate amplifiers cost a lot more is that you have to have two separate power supplies, two chassis and so on. There's a lot of duplication, which adds to the cost.

There's also an historical tradition that component parts chosen for pre-pros and separate amplifiers are of better quality--better output devices, more sophisitcated DACs, better shielding and so on.

These may or may not make any audible difference. Typically, a separate pre-pro should have a lower noise floor because there aren't any high-power output stages, which are in the power amplifier.

With inexpensive pre-pros, I'm not convinced there would be any audible difference compared to a good AV receiver.

As Micah has pointed out, a separate power amplifier also allows for much greater power output, better cooling and air flow, beefier heat sinks and in more costly models, really good output devices and larger storage capacitors so the amp can drive very low impedances with lots of current and no overheating.

Regards,
_________________________
Alan Lofft,
Axiom Resident Expert

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#249097 - 02/26/09 06:00 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: alan]
Micah Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 1789
Loc: Indiana you hoser!!!!
 Originally Posted By: alan
There's also an historical tradition that component parts chosen for pre-pros and separate amplifiers are of better quality--better output devices, more sophisitcated DACs, better shielding and so on.



Yes, and while nobody is here to say that's ALWAYS the case, generally speaking it should be. A reciever (most anyway) is a series of trade-off's. If you have a $1500 dollar reciever sitting next to a $1500 dollar amplifier, you would expect the amplifier to be of much better quality than the one in the reciever. You must also consider heat. A big amplifier (A/B class, the most common) creates a LOT of heat. So they can't stuff a very big amp inside of a power reciever or they would fry the processor.

Same should be the case for a separate processor. If you have a $1500 dollar processor sitting next to the $1500 dollar reciever, then you would expect the parts in the processor to be of much higher value than those being used in the reciever.

(some companies may sell you a $750 dollar processor for $1500 bucks, based on that assumption alone. But their reputation for doing so should catch up to them sooner or later)
_________________________
My Stuff :

M80's
QS8's
VP150
EP800
Denon 4802
Emotiva XPA-3
Samsung BD-P3600
Sharp 65 Inch Aquos LCD

Top
#249098 - 02/26/09 06:19 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: pmbuko]
Micah Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 1789
Loc: Indiana you hoser!!!!
 Originally Posted By: pmbuko
 Quote:
If you're good at something... never do it for free!

I refuse to become a male prostitute. Just sayin'.



Well, at least we've found the modest one of the group.



_________________________
My Stuff :

M80's
QS8's
VP150
EP800
Denon 4802
Emotiva XPA-3
Samsung BD-P3600
Sharp 65 Inch Aquos LCD

Top
#249101 - 02/26/09 07:05 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Micah]
fredk Online   happy
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7120
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
If you have a $1500 dollar processor sitting next to the $1500 dollar reciever, then you would expect the parts in the processor to be of much higher value than those being used in the reciever.

You would think so, but I don't think that is always the case. For instance, the UMC-1 only uses Faroujda video processing. From what I understant, this is middle-of-the-road these days. In contrast the Onkyo 806 (I think) uses a reon chip, which is a high end scaler. The UMC-1 may not be a good example though since it is less than $1000.

On the other hand, the price difference (in quantity) of mid line and high end dacs is less than $10 and some question whether or not you can hear the difference.

I can see the advantage of an outboard amp if you have a very large room, but I think that recent receivers have really narrowed the gap with pre-pros. Now if someone came out with a pre-pro that used studio-grade audio and video processing like Teranex (sp?) and that audio system that Sherwood-Newcastle may release some day (in a receiver!!) then you may have something that is way better than higher end receivers.
_________________________
Fred

-------
Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#249104 - 02/26/09 07:15 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: fredk]
Micah Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 1789
Loc: Indiana you hoser!!!!
 Originally Posted By: fredk
You would think so, but I don't think that is always the case.



Nor do I. That's why I kept admitting 'should be the case'.

The more reputable companies you 'should' expect better quality parts. But as with just about anything, you should heavily investigate what ever company you choose to go with.


Edited by Micah (02/26/09 07:17 PM)
_________________________
My Stuff :

M80's
QS8's
VP150
EP800
Denon 4802
Emotiva XPA-3
Samsung BD-P3600
Sharp 65 Inch Aquos LCD

Top
#249105 - 02/26/09 07:18 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: Micah]
fredk Online   happy
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7120
Loc: Canada
Another thing that has not been mentioned directly is economies of scale. How many receivers do you suppose Denon sells in a year. They have plenty of opportunity to share both engineering and components across lines as well, so you have a dual whammy of cost competitiveness and volume to make up for reduced per-unit margin.
_________________________
Fred

-------
Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#249107 - 02/26/09 07:23 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: fredk]
Micah Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 1789
Loc: Indiana you hoser!!!!
 Originally Posted By: fredk
Another thing that has not been mentioned directly is economies of scale. How many receivers do you suppose Denon sells in a year.


Good point. The VAST majority of people go with an all-in-one reciever as opposed to a separate amp and separate processor. So you would be right in assuming they have a cost advantage. But my main opinion concerning separates has to do with the amount of watts you can obtain. For those who feel 150 or so watts pushing your M80's is completely adequate, then go with the reciever. If you like your music LOUD, then go the separate route, you'll get more that way.
_________________________
My Stuff :

M80's
QS8's
VP150
EP800
Denon 4802
Emotiva XPA-3
Samsung BD-P3600
Sharp 65 Inch Aquos LCD

Top
#249109 - 02/26/09 07:57 PM Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...? [Re: casey01]
SatKartr Offline
aficionado

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 608
Loc: Dallas
 Originally Posted By: casey01
I have been looking at the XPA2. In either case whether it was the MPS1 or the XPA2, I would be interested to know exactly how loud these amps had to be cranked up before this happened?


It did not seem to be volume alone for either me or Randy if I have read his threads correctly and I admit not thoroughly because it was about a year earlier when he suffered through similar issues, it was only during reproduction of loud dynamic HTs that the protect circuit kicked in. For example I could listen to music at 105 dbs in a 7300 cu sq ft room with four entryway doors open and it would never shut down (I don't actually listen that loud, that was a test), but at even 90-95 dbs with probably higher peaks HT explosions etc would cause the fault to kick in. From my observations it was always the case that LFEs were involved and not necessarily loud mid to HF sounds.

As Randy has pointed out emo is quick to blame the speakers, in my case I eventually began to question if a cheap Yamaha avr was somehow to blame because I continued to have problems with loud popping sounds, sometimes during LFEs with no loud mid to high HFs, after I returned the xpa2.

It could be a pattern but still seems rare enough to me that I continue to view it as a fluke, even a coincidence perhaps that both Randy and I had the same problem, I'm not sure what it says about the emo protect circuit, if they even are the same electronics.

I think everyone moves toward a space in which things are working properly, it's hard to know sometimes what the problems were that forced one to push ahead, I remain curious about the XPA2/M80 combo but of course would not return on that path, just as Lonnie at Emotiva didn't seem to feel he had time to mess with the XPA2/M80 issue after having failed to resolve Randy's problems with the MPS1/M80 combo.

Anyhow it remains inconclusive to me yet clearly is not a sheer volume issue (cranking it up), for example the LEDs were not pinned when the XPA2 went into protect, it was only during transient dynamic peaks especially ones involving LFEs.
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"If you try to turn toward it, you go against it."

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