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#254028 - 03/27/09 11:20 PM My findings on setting delay (distance) with subs.
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13311
Loc: Iowa
Over the years since I starting coming to this forum, the topic of setting distance or delay for subwoofers is often discussed. One of the questions that we see all the time is why does my receiver's auto setup mode set my DSP based subs like the Axiom EP600 or 500 so much further than the actual physical distance.

In my case, the Denon will set my EP600 around 26ft, when it is actually about 12-13ft. What I have read in the manual, on forums, and in discussing with all of you, is that it is normal and a result of the internal processing or nature of a DSP based product.

I don't have this issue with my other subwoofers, the EP350v3's. The measurements taken by my Denon are "dead nuts" accurate to the measuring tape, as are my other speakers.

So, for many years I've trusted those settings, until tonight....

I was playing some low bass songs on youtube, especially for showing off your subs. I turned off the 350's and focused on my 600. I noticed with my 80's set to small, and an 80hz crossover, I could still hear the 600, but it did not impress me. Keep in mind I have my speakers and subs all calibrated to 75dB SPL.

I also had my Radio Shack meter at ear level and set to the 80dB setting, the receiver was around -25dB on the Denon. The 600 was barely even registering on my VU meter which would be less than 75dB's during the intense lowwws.

When I switched to Direct mode, which bypasses any bass management, basically the same thing as having the 80's on large, and using the sub + mains setting, the bass was LOW and INTENSE. I'm like what the heck, are my 80's better than my 600?

So, I started lowering the distance setting down from 26ft and ended up at around the actual physical distance it was from me, 13-14ft. All I can say is WOW, the difference is like night and day. Now I can hardly tell the difference between Direct mode and Stereo Mode (mains set to small with 80hz crossover). The 600 is putting out lowww, punch in my chest performance.

When watching the SPL meter now, the meter jumps to 85+dB's during the low frequencies at the same volume on the Denon.

.............

I know all the experts, white papers, etc., will tell you to trust this setting your receiver is giving you, but I encourage you to try changing the settings if you feel your EP subs are lacking, which may be why many of you use LARGE settings, or lower your crossover to say 40-60hz.

I also want to add that Jakeman has always said to add 3ft to the physical distance of any DSP based sub or product like the SMS-1. I agree that this method is MUCH more accurate than trusting your receiver, and I have found the results are very similar to me just using the actual distance.

I know a lot of you have asked why your receiver gives such crazy results for the EP subs, 10-25ft further than actual. Please try changing your receiver setting to around the actual distance, you may be suprised with the results. You can always change it back to 20+ ft if you want. \:\)
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#254030 - 03/27/09 11:29 PM Re: My findings on setting delay (distance) with s [Re: SirQuack]
onn Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/28/08
Posts: 861
Loc: Edmonton Alberta
Thanks sirquack, when I get my twin 800's I'll try that setup.
Mel N.
_________________________
My system

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#254037 - 03/28/09 12:37 AM Re: My findings on setting delay (distance) with s [Re: onn]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10393
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
And I will feel it all the way down here \:\)
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#254044 - 03/28/09 12:52 AM Re: My findings on setting delay (distance) with subs. [Re: SirQuack]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11056
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
I'll have to play around with the distances and see how much difference I can detect. I set it as roughly the distance+3 feet when I did it, but now I'm curious how different it can sound. Can you link to the low bass songs you were playing?
_________________________
SuperGrand UltraDeluxe (Plus Extra More)

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#254046 - 03/28/09 01:00 AM Re: My findings on setting delay (distance) with subs. [Re: CV]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13311
Loc: Iowa
I don't have them linked, but if you type either "subwoofer test" or "bass test" on youtube, there are a bunch of ones with great lowwwws. It is possible that the newer receivers may give different results. My Denon 2805 has always been like double the physical difference no matter where in the room I place the 600. I think others have received results 10+ when running auto setup.
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

Top
#254048 - 03/28/09 01:13 AM Re: My findings on setting delay (distance) with subs. [Re: SirQuack]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11056
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
Yeah, if I let Audyssey set the distances, the sub's distance is invariably on the horizon.
_________________________
SuperGrand UltraDeluxe (Plus Extra More)

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#254052 - 03/28/09 02:13 AM Re: My findings on setting delay (distance) with subs. [Re: CV]
GregLee Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/12/03
Posts: 131
Loc: Waimanalo, HI
That's an interesting and important result. Is it just Audyssey you're talking about? I haven't seen mention of the receding sub problem for MCACC.
_________________________
Greg
VP180, M80s, M22s, QS8(4), CSW S305s, EP500, Pioneer SC-1522
M2i, M3(2), Pio vsx-1017

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#254060 - 03/28/09 08:26 AM Re: My findings on setting delay (distance) with s [Re: SirQuack]
onn Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/28/08
Posts: 861
Loc: Edmonton Alberta
So I have another question(s)
If I understand correctly, you:
Run the auto setup
Manually correct the sub distances to actual or +3 feet
Is there a manual dB correction also or did you find you didn't need to modify those settings?
Thanks again for the info.
Mel N.
_________________________
My system

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#254064 - 03/28/09 09:44 AM Re: My findings on setting delay (distance) with subs. [Re: SirQuack]
chapin99 Offline
buff

Registered: 04/21/06
Posts: 41
Loc: South Carolina
 Originally Posted By: sirquack
Over the years since I starting coming to this forum, the topic of setting distance or delay for subwoofers is often discussed. One of the questions that we see all the time is why does my receiver's auto setup mode set my DSP based subs like the Axiom EP600 or 500 so much further than the actual physical distance.

In my case, the Denon will set my EP600 around 26ft, when it is actually about 12-13ft. What I have read in the manual, on forums, and in discussing with all of you, is that it is normal and a result of the internal processing or nature of a DSP based product.

I don't have this issue with my other subwoofers, the EP350v3's. The measurements taken by my Denon are "dead nuts" accurate to the measuring tape, as are my other speakers.

So, for many years I've trusted those settings, until tonight....

I was playing some low bass songs on youtube, especially for showing off your subs. I turned off the 350's and focused on my 600. I noticed with my 80's set to small, and an 80hz crossover, I could still hear the 600, but it did not impress me. Keep in mind I have my speakers and subs all calibrated to 75dB SPL.

I also had my Radio Shack meter at ear level and set to the 80dB setting, the receiver was around -25dB on the Denon. The 600 was barely even registering on my VU meter which would be less than 75dB's during the intense lowwws.

When I switched to Direct mode, which bypasses any bass management, basically the same thing as having the 80's on large, and using the sub + mains setting, the bass was LOW and INTENSE. I'm like what the heck, are my 80's better than my 600?

So, I started lowering the distance setting down from 26ft and ended up at around the actual physical distance it was from me, 13-14ft. All I can say is WOW, the difference is like night and day. Now I can hardly tell the difference between Direct mode and Stereo Mode (mains set to small with 80hz crossover). The 600 is putting out lowww, punch in my chest performance.

When watching the SPL meter now, the meter jumps to 85+dB's during the low frequencies at the same volume on the Denon.

.............

I know all the experts, white papers, etc., will tell you to trust this setting your receiver is giving you, but I encourage you to try changing the settings if you feel your EP subs are lacking, which may be why many of you use LARGE settings, or lower your crossover to say 40-60hz.

I also want to add that Jakeman has always said to add 3ft to the physical distance of any DSP based sub or product like the SMS-1. I agree that this method is MUCH more accurate than trusting your receiver, and I have found the results are very similar to me just using the actual distance.

I know a lot of you have asked why your receiver gives such crazy results for the EP subs, 10-25ft further than actual. Please try changing your receiver setting to around the actual distance, you may be suprised with the results. You can always change it back to 20+ ft if you want. \:\)


Thanks! I have gone through multiple audyssey setups and using the 8 positions involving the soundfield where you have the seating positions and some in front and back and am still dismayed about my EP500 sub results. I will definitely be playing with this setting today. Also, on another not, if you recall I had problems with the emotiva amp (mps-2) and am seeing that you are happy with your odyssey amp or amps. Could you tell me if it or they are quiet, like near silent? And, which models do you have? And, finally, would you suggest I give them a try should I get the chance to try some used ones given that I use the denon 3808ci and full axiom 7.1 setup with m80s up front? Thanks for continued help.

Top
#254067 - 03/28/09 11:33 AM Re: My findings on setting delay (distance) with subs. [Re: chapin99]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13311
Loc: Iowa
Hey everyone, well just to remind everyone my Denon 2805 is like 5+ years old, and does not have Audyssey, but does have a setup mic for measuring distance, levels, speaker size, etc from ONE location.

Mel, I always go back and just verify the dB levels with my Radio Shack SPL meter, and it usually is very accurate. I have found that the Denon seems to calibrate everything to 72dB's which I usually use 75dB, not much difference. As long as everything is the same, that is what is important.

For distance, my 350's are always exactly what I found find using a tape measure, but the 600 is always like 13-15ft further than actual measurment. So that is the one I'm changing.

Now, keep in mind I'm not familiar with Audyssey, yet. \:\) I have heard there are some settings you can change after Audyssey does its thing, and some if you change it will disable Audyssey.

I think you can set speakers from large to small with no problems, as that is the receiver doing that, not Audyssey, and they normally recommend using small. However, I'm not sure about dB levels or distance settings, that might disable Audyssey, can't remember.

I think I've heard that the newer receivers are better at calculating distance, so if you get no more than 3ft added on, your probably ok. I believe the Audyssey Logo on the receiver screen will go away if Audyssey disables itself.

Laura, I can send you a PM about the amps...
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

Top
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