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#268969 - 08/12/09 01:30 AM Re: Skiing Ninja. Anyone heard of this [Re: BlueJays1]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
 Originally Posted By: Dr.House
The M3's have a high-pass filter on the 1" tweeter and the 6.5" woofer has it own natural roll-off.


Sounds like a rather elegant design.
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3M80 2M22 6QS8 2M2 1EP500 Sony BDP-S590 Panny-7000 Onkyo-3007 Carada-134 Xbox Buttkicker AS-EQ1

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#268997 - 08/12/09 11:35 AM Re: Skiing Ninja. Anyone heard of this [Re: grunt]
gtpsuper Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/11/09
Posts: 80
It didn't take them long did it. The orignal poster wanted some nice cherry speakers for light listen in a office. I thought the M2s in a custom cherry veneer would be perfect and in his budget ($400-450). I'll keep recommending Axioms to the noobs that post on there wanting speaker ideas, a few people have actually listened to me. The AV123 bashing is starting to happen it looks like now maybe they'll leave Axiom alone. The only posts by s44 on this thread is just negative about Axiom, he isn't even trying to help the OP just writing how a bad choice Axiom would be


Edited by gtpsuper (08/12/09 11:51 AM)

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#268999 - 08/12/09 11:49 AM Re: Skiing Ninja. Anyone heard of this [Re: gtpsuper]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8290
Loc: Tacoma
"Keep my word positive. Words become my behaviors. Keep my behaviors positive. Behaviors become my habits. Keep my habits positive. Habits become my values. Keep my values positive. Values become my destiny."

Gandhi is not present at AVS.
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bibere usque ad hilaritatem

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#269003 - 08/12/09 12:25 PM Re: Skiing Ninja. Anyone heard of this [Re: tomtuttle]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6613
Loc: It's all about the location.
neither is Albert Einstein:

"...knowledge must continually be renewed by ceaseless effort, if it is not to be lost. It resembles a statue of marble which stands in the desert and is continually threatened with burial by the shifting sand. The hands of service must ever be at work, in order that the marble continue to lastingly shine in the sun. To these serving hands mine shall also belong."
_________________________
Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.

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#269010 - 08/12/09 01:13 PM Re: Skiing Ninja. Anyone heard of this [Re: tomtuttle]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7047
Loc: Canada
You have it exactly right sirtuttle! I found the same thing on Audioholics, though not as rabbid as avsforum. I decided to do a little experiment. Rather than riding to the bait (as I did initially), or giving up, I kept responding with links to the soundstage NRC measurements Toole's research and known A\B comparisons posted on the site.

It seems that people gradually respond in kind. Things have settled down a lot at audioholics. I'm not claiming I did this single handed as there were, and still are, others there that take this approach, but it is interesting people respond to the tone and language of a post. People still respond that they don't like the upper end of Axiom products, but the language has changed from "ear bleeding" to "I don't like".
_________________________
Fred

-------
Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#269054 - 08/12/09 06:40 PM Re: Skiing Ninja. Anyone heard of this [Re: fredk]
SolidState Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 124
Regarding Skiing Ninja and Dannie Richie's finding... They are ON THE MONEY on two points...

I'm an AV integrator/installer and have been using the axiom products on a few installs throughout the last 3 years. I even have sold/installed an A1400-8 (amazing amp) so I can honestly say I'm a fan of Axiom...

But there is a caveat, that being the M80 and VP150. Both have serious design flaws as outlined by Dannie Ritchie. I was not aware of the issues either of these speakers exhibit until I had a long weekend and all my test gear with me at my uncle's house.

He has the flagship M80 system powered initially with a Denon AVR4308. From day one I noticed something not right with the M80s and VP150. The EP500 was fabulous and so are the QS8s... I also liked the M60…

I attributed the sonic issues to the poor amp driving them. This is when next we purchased an A1400-8 but the sonic issues were still prevalent...

I tried to EQ the speakers to resolve the problems to no avail...

Well I left my uncle with a sub-par performing system until just this month when I had time to come over to the Island were he lives on the west coast. I brought with me various test equipment to get to the bottom of the issue...

What I found is perfectly summed up in this statement from the Skiing Ninja article...

"There is also cancellation from an out of phase issue between the woofers and mids in the 650Hz to 1,800Hz range. There is also a slight cancellation in the 2,500Hz to 3,500Hz range."

This is exactly what I perceived from day one with my wetwear (brain and ears)

With this knowledge in hand I then contacted some reputable friends in the AV industry. By AV industry I don't mean your local installer types but famous AV engineers I've come to know from my work in the media industry. One worked/contracted to THX and the other is the "Master of Time". I won't use names here but all I can tell you is they come from a pool of perhaps 50 people globally that really understand sound from both an engineering standpoint as well as applied... I also indirectly spoke with Vance Dickinson…

Essentially just with a glance at the business end of the speaker resulted in a, “that’s a very poor design decision”. Not to mention when I showed them the internals… The cabinet bracing is subpar as is the totally brutally low end components used in the crossover. I also noticed glue spills all over the place with next o no poly… Even the internal bracing was cut with a saw blade set to deep resulting in jagged splinters all over the edge of the bracing…

Also the article shows WHY the M80s have problems with the Emotiva XPA-2…

“The one place that you don't want to see low impedance is in the low frequency range where it will cause a high current demand on the source. Unfortunately this is exactly where the impedance is lowest in the M80Ti. It drops to 2.4 ohms between 10Hz and 20Hz. At the tuning frequency of the port it drops to 3 ohms. I can't recommend using this speaker with any typical home theater receiver though I am sure many do.”

It’s this crazy drop in impedance at low frequencies that pops the overload on the XPA-2 due to the bottom basement crossover and the horrible design decisions...

In all honesty I cannot suggest the M80 or VP150 to anyone personally but I have high praise for the M22s, the EP500 and QS8s as well as limited listening to the M60s




Edited by SolidState (08/12/09 07:07 PM)

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#269056 - 08/12/09 06:53 PM Re: Skiing Ninja. Anyone heard of this [Re: SolidState]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6613
Loc: It's all about the location.
Yawwnn....think I'll go make myself a coffee.
_________________________
Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.

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#269089 - 08/12/09 09:00 PM Re: Skiing Ninja. Anyone heard of this [Re: Adrian]
Socketman Online   content
connoisseur

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 1194
Loc: Whitehorse YT
I do apologize for dragging this dead horse out of its grave. I did not realize the vultures were circling the whole time.
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DOG is GOD spelled backwards.
I blame my terseness on my keyboard. smile

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#269098 - 08/12/09 09:48 PM Re: Skiing Ninja. Anyone heard of this [Re: Socketman]
SolidState Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 124
Well,

Vulture ehh...

I intend to replace some of the crossover caps and inductors as well as pull one of the tweets outta the circuit. I will also TRY to reinforce the cabinet cross member/braces. Dead center of the brace/cross-member I used a sparkplug gap tool to see if the brace is even solid against the side of the cabinet. To my shock it seems to only contact the cabinet in the corners and has gap between the brace and the cabinet of greater than 1mm in some places... perhaps I can squirt more glue in there OMG perhaps this is why glue is all over the place inside here in the first place... Man owhh man somebody did a very sloppy job of jigging the saw when they made these cabinet braces man and appear to have tried to remedy it by squirting carpenders glue in the gaps!

OK at this point I'm very friggin pissed... I'm shocked the braces only contact in the corners... cabinet resonance is greatly affected. I'll try to fix this somehow but I think the cabinet is sonically hindered due to the poor bracing construction. I'll also stick more poly in there..

I will report my results...


Edited by SolidState (08/12/09 09:56 PM)

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#269100 - 08/12/09 10:06 PM Re: Skiing Ninja. Anyone heard of this [Re: SolidState]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6613
Loc: It's all about the location.
Can you post us some pictures?
_________________________
Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.

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