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#275404 - 10/17/09 08:54 PM Re: B&K Receiver for M80's [Re: fredk]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
All reported power measurements are going to be Watts RMS. That's cuts down on the false claims where an amp can hit 100 Watts for a microsecond, but can only deliver 15 Watts RMS.

If you have a signal which is supposed to go: 0.98, 0.99, 1.00, 0.99, 0.98, but instead it goes: 0.98, 0.99, 0.99, 0.99, 0.98. That's clipped, and would create something like 0.016% THD.

Forget I said hard. Tubes tend to compress the signal at first rather than clip, so people call that soft clipping.
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
-Chris

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#275408 - 10/17/09 10:01 PM Re: B&K Receiver for M80's [Re: ClubNeon]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7047
Loc: Canada
 Originally Posted By: ClubNeon
If you have a signal which is supposed to go: 0.98, 0.99, 1.00, 0.99, 0.98, but instead it goes: 0.98, 0.99, 0.99, 0.99, 0.98. That's clipped, and would create something like 0.016% THD.


OK, the question still stands. If that happens at 70 some odd watts, can you still increase power to 105 watts with distortion staying at or below 1%?
_________________________
Fred

-------
Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#275411 - 10/17/09 10:31 PM Re: B&K Receiver for M80's [Re: fredk]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
A 60% increase in power leading to 100 times the distortion. That doesn't sound far fetched when the amplifier is reaching its limit.

You ask that question as if as increase from 0.01 to 1.00 is something small. That's two orders of magnitude.
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
-Chris

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#275412 - 10/17/09 10:45 PM Re: B&K Receiver for M80's [Re: Zimm]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10395
Charles, you appear to be growing personally irritated(including "resembling" a remark I've made several times here in the past and which wasn't in any way directed at you)over a relatively simple point of audio technology which certainly isn't some mere personal opinion. Again, actual clipping isn't defined by a distortion percentage, but rather by the flattening of the top of the waveform, as viewed on the oscilloscope. The percentage of distortion associated with actual clipping varies, but is always far above the percentages those writers applied the term to. A brief analysis of distortion percentages(several percent)with clipping in this book may help illustrate the point.

Manufacturers are generally delighted with the test results that appear in some audio publications because they nearly always confirm the power specs which they published(e.g., the test of your 3300)and often add some flowery subjective language praising their product. The use of non-standard terminology for any topic, such as clipping, doesn't change this, and calling a dog a cat doesn't mean that it'll start to meow(just as calling audibly clean performance "clipping" doesn't make it sound bad).
_________________________
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Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#275413 - 10/17/09 10:51 PM Re: B&K Receiver for M80's [Re: ClubNeon]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7047
Loc: Canada
It goes back to my original understand of when clipping of a waveform starts. My original understanding was that from the beginning of clipping to nasty distorted transducer blowing (but not hard ;\) ) clipping happened over a much narrower power range.

I still find it hard to accept that, under continuous power a signal can start clipping in the 70w range and remain inaudible through a 60% power increase, but I think I am the one flogging the dead horse now.
_________________________
Fred

-------
Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#275415 - 10/17/09 10:53 PM Re: B&K Receiver for M80's [Re: fredk]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17781
Loc: NoVA
The horse is a greasy puddle of goop on the ground by this point.
_________________________
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#275435 - 10/18/09 03:11 AM Re: B&K Receiver for M80's [Re: fredk]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
 Originally Posted By: fredk
I still find it hard to accept that, under continuous power a signal can start clipping in the 70w range and remain inaudible through a 60% power increase, but I think I am the one flogging the dead horse now.

Keep in mind it requires a 100% increase in power to gain just 3 dB. So even without taking clipping into account a 66% increase in power is largely inaudible, being about 2 dB.
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
-Chris

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#275447 - 10/18/09 11:26 AM Re: B&K Receiver for M80's [Re: JohnK]
Zimm Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/08/08
Posts: 1361
Loc: New Orleans
 Originally Posted By: JohnK
Charles, you appear to be growing personally irritated(including "resembling" a remark I've made several times here in the past and which wasn't in any way directed at you)over a relatively simple point of audio technology which certainly isn't some mere personal opinion.


I'm not irritated John, and take no personal offense from a debate over audio signals - sorry if the cold transcript of text took on an erroneous tone.

But understand that you constantly inject that many of us don't hear what we think we hear - so debate is inevitable. I'm hoping to learn why. And I do resemble the remark (that's a quote from Garfield the Cat!) and don't mind that at all. I'm happy to own up to my learning curve. But I prefer attempts at imparting knowledge, as Chris has tried, as opposed to repeated "their/you're just wrong" dismissals.

I know you must tire of answering the uninformed questions on this board (I'm just talking about mine Mark, not yours!). And you clearly have a very solid grasp of complex issues involved here, but you don't have to respond. If you are going to point out our my error, teach me. We all know your view about power and amp equality, and respect it, but bring us up to speed.

I'm sure you would agree that your "you're not getting the point" comment was more audience specific, and to that point had only been backed by your continued rejection of the industry use of the worked clipped. Clipping would be a bad thing in terms of a product description. The definition you use is clearly not the one used by the industry mags - I get that loud and clear.

But you have failed to explain, to my satisfaction anyway, why companies would be happy to have a false claim made about their product. A claim that would encourage the mass of less-informed-than-you people reading to think comparison of the lab tests would show some meaningful distinction between products A and B. If I sold dogs and an industry "expert" called it a cat, I'd object.

And I still don't understand why the clipping of only the very last final point (a tiny amount of information) of the peak could not cause a small amount of distortion. Thus, I don't know why QSC flashes the clip light at .1% if any clipping makes several percent of THD.

I'll add the book to my reading list. Hopefully I can figure out why a more powerful amp sounds better than my Denon. That's the one thing I'm certain about (after further testing last night \:\/ . My ears still cringe expecting the vocal peaks to be harsh on DMB at Central Park on All Along the Watchtower, but now they just keep climbing smoothly (as long as playing in stereo).

Thank the audio Gawds for that bag of pixie dust, I really enjoyed it last night.
_________________________
Panny 3000 PJ, 118" Carada, Denon 3300, PS3, Axiom QS8, PSB 5T, B&W sub, levitating speaker wire

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#275448 - 10/18/09 11:36 AM Re: B&K Receiver for M80's [Re: Zimm]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6613
Loc: It's all about the location.
Doesn't this "debate" really come down to when clipping creates "audible" distortion?


:::chomp, chomp, chomp.....DANG! some of the kernels didn't pop on the bottom:::
_________________________
Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.

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#275449 - 10/18/09 11:42 AM Re: B&K Receiver for M80's [Re: Adrian]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17781
Loc: NoVA
To continue beating this dead horse (and to play another side for the moment), Charles, those self-same review magazines almost always review cable as sounding different (even digital ones!), as well as various other questionable tweaks. Should we really trust them about receivers, too?
_________________________
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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