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#28712 - 12/23/03 04:33 PM 2 speakers vs 4 speakers?
Hawkson101 Offline
devotee

Registered: 11/06/03
Posts: 359
Loc: wilmette illinois
When i play music through my hk 525 it sounds a lot better when only using 2 m22s. When i use all 4 m22s it is less loud(probably due to power capability of reciever) but it also sounds less clear and precise. With 2 speakers the soundstage is excellent, but with 4 speakers the soundstage is absent and it doesnt sound very good at all

any suggestions?
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#28713 - 12/23/03 05:13 PM Re: 2 speakers vs 4 speakers?
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17782
Loc: NoVA
It's because it's going through the 5-Stereo DSP. Try it with DPL II-Music. I use that all the time, and all I've got is 2 speakers! It sounds way better than plain Stereo.
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#28714 - 12/23/03 05:29 PM Re: 2 speakers vs 4 speakers?
Saturn Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/21/02
Posts: 1041
Loc: Toronto Ontario Canuck
Yeah but thats not the way the music is supposed to sound though.

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#28715 - 12/23/03 05:32 PM Re: 2 speakers vs 4 speakers?
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17782
Loc: NoVA
{loaded question}If it sounds better to me, is that any different than running it through a tube amp?{/loaded question} Besides, how do you know?
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#28716 - 12/23/03 06:33 PM Re: 2 speakers vs 4 speakers?
Hawkson101 Offline
devotee

Registered: 11/06/03
Posts: 359
Loc: wilmette illinois
so the hk 525 is unable to reproduce effective multi channel stereo? I bought 4 m22s instead of a theater package so i could listen to good 4 channel stereo.
And the dp-II music mode does not sound like stereo at all. the rear channels are rarely used.
is there any way to simply reproduce 2 channel stereo across 4 channels?

Wheres the fcken disclaimer on this?



Edited by Hawkson101 (12/23/03 06:34 PM)
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#28717 - 12/23/03 06:46 PM Re: 2 speakers vs 4 speakers?
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17782
Loc: NoVA
Perhaps you should call H/K? As I don't have 4 speakers, I can't really answer all the questions. Now that I read your post, I realize that of course DPLII doesn't work in your situation.
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#28718 - 12/23/03 07:06 PM Re: 2 speakers vs 4 speakers?
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10395
Hawk, as I've said before, I don't care for all-channel stereo because it isn't really natural to have the same sounds coming from in front and behind. However, I assume that you heard it before and liked it. If so, the 525 should be as good at it as any other receiver that has the feature. 4 speakers are louder than 2 speakers; the 525 has more than enough power for them and if the gain in 5-channel stereo mode is lower it simply means that the volume control has to be set a bit higher. So far as clarity goes, the sound coming from different directions would tend to reduce clarity, but you should double-check your wiring to make sure that one or more of the speakers isn't wired out of phase.
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#28719 - 12/23/03 07:24 PM Re: 2 speakers vs 4 speakers?
curtis Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/28/03
Posts: 1501
Loc: Manhattan Beach, CA
where are the four speakers placed in relation to the listening area?

I have a 525 and never use multi-channel stereo. Logic 7 for TV, DD and DTS ofcourse, standard stereo, and 5.1 analog.

Never an issue with volume levels even before I got an external amp.

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#28720 - 12/23/03 07:33 PM Re: 2 speakers vs 4 speakers?
Hawkson101 Offline
devotee

Registered: 11/06/03
Posts: 359
Loc: wilmette illinois
no
i bought everything over the internet(sub, receiver, speakers)

the loudness is not an issue because i can always turn it up. But the sound quality is definetely worse. I cant put my finger on it, but the speaker is no longer giving me the wide expansive feeling it does with 2 channel stereo mode. In the channel mode the sound opens up. In 4 channel stereo the sound seems stagnant.

Maybe i am being harsh, but the only reason i bought a full 4.1 system for $2200 was for multi channel stereo(i dont watch too many movies on a 20 inch tv)

Is this what its like on other recievers? I think i might be returning the HK 525. Is there any way to fix this?
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#28721 - 12/23/03 07:54 PM Re: 2 speakers vs 4 speakers?
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17782
Loc: NoVA
I think I would return the second pair of M22s before I returned the 525. AFAIK, it is like that on all receivers. What led you to the conclusion that you wanted 4 channel stereo?
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#28722 - 12/23/03 07:55 PM Re: 2 speakers vs 4 speakers?
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4829
Loc: western canada
Hawkson, i believe in what alot of JohnK has already mentioned.
Here's my adiditional 3 cents.

Four speaker "stereo" is a bit of a flawed idea.
Stereo is 2 channel, period (i won't argue this point overly hard but there are true stereophiles out there who would consider your words true blasphemy).
The idea of taking a single forward imaged sound (2 speakers up front firing in one direction) and then playing 2 opposing speakers in the rear is not only confusing to your ear since the original 'stereo' sound was not designed for 4 speakers in such an orientation, but the sound waves themselves will have cancellations potentially giving you this stagnant sound that you perceive. Think of it as two waves of water colliding. Molecules of gases that makeup air in motion (sound waves) very much have an effect on each other and not always in a harmonious way.

The idea about using 'surround' sound with 4.x or 5.x channels, is to try and create the most realistic way of hearing an image as our ears would normally perceive sounds all around our head. If a band were playing in front of you, it should not sound as loud coming from behind your head as it does in front.
Using a full channel 4 speaker surround creates this non-realistic sound.
If you are trying to create a well imaged sound from any source, i suggest you try using the Dolby Pro Logic modes first which utilize real recorded information for the surround speakers, left and right back, and see what this does to the sound you seek.
(NOTE: For the nitpickers out there, I did not say DPL has distinctly recorded channel info for the surrounds)
Secondly, try listening to some music off a dvd soundtrack that is using DTS or Dolby Digital 5.1 to get an idea of how the surround channels should really sound in comparison to the 2 main front speakers.

Using the all channel surround mode is ok, but i personally have never found it enhances music or tv watching whatsoever. If anything, i find it distracting.

The only way i ever got to try and enjoy the full 4 speakers in surround (and yes, they were 4 direct radiating speakers, 2 M60s and 2 M22s), was to sit in the VERY middle of the room equidistant from all 4 speakers on all angles (e.g. the middle of the square).
Most listening rooms are not setup with a couch completely in the middle, with equidistance from all speakers.
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#28723 - 12/23/03 08:34 PM Re: 2 speakers vs 4 speakers?
Saturn Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/21/02
Posts: 1041
Loc: Toronto Ontario Canuck
Touche... But I would be playing with a preamp rather than a tube amp. Tube amps have the ... errmm.. the tube sound. The tube pre-amp is less so and just a little touch warm...which mean could be rolling off in certain frqouencies and a little noise and sparkle.
True...if it sounds better to you personally. But I thought music was always recorded with 1 or 2 mics in front. Unless the recording was made specifically recorded or digitized to use all available speakers hence it needed to have mics in all 5.1 6.1 or 7.2 locations. I like listening to music the way it was recorded.

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#28724 - 12/23/03 10:21 PM Re: 2 speakers vs 4 speakers?
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17782
Loc: NoVA
Ah, you didn't read my post very closely. I always listen in 2 channel-I don't have more speakers. Using DPLII, for whatever reason, sounds better than Stereo for my 2 speakers.

Also, I agree with you on listening the way it was recoreded (amount of speaker-wise).

Back to the issue at hand, Hawkson. You could hook up the 2nd set of M22s to the multiroom (SBL/SBR) posts on the H/K and configure it for multiroom. Then you'd get the full amplification using Stereo as opposed to Logic7 or 5-Stereo.


Edited by kcarlile (12/23/03 10:44 PM)
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#28725 - 12/23/03 11:20 PM Re: 2 speakers vs 4 speakers?
Saturn Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/21/02
Posts: 1041
Loc: Toronto Ontario Canuck
Ah!!!! ding ding ding duh!!!
sorry.....I have tried DPLII and there was sound coming from the rears too.
HAVE to READ properly. I need new contact lenses.
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#28726 - 12/23/03 11:46 PM Re: 2 speakers vs 4 speakers?
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16280
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
In reply to:

I need new contact lenses.



Are the nose-grease streaks on your monitor getting to you?
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#28727 - 12/24/03 01:41 AM Re: 2 speakers vs 4 speakers?
Hawkson101 Offline
devotee

Registered: 11/06/03
Posts: 359
Loc: wilmette illinois
cheseroo-what made me purchase 4 m22s for the purpose of 4 way stereo was that my 4.1 klipsch computer speakers sounds really nice when reproducing 2 channel across 4 speakers. Since i dont watch movies too often, but play music atleast 4 hours a day i figured 4 channel stereo would be the way to go

kcarlile-well i tried it and it sounds better. It is not as nice as 2 channel stereo and its a pain to get both set of speakers on equal volumes (need 2 remotes for that)

I have a couple of theoretical questions though-if i position the speakers so they are at equal heights and equal positions in the room will the soundstage come together?

Should i return the 4 m22's and get an m60 for a 18x15 room? I can return the 4 FMBs if i get an m60 too.


Edited by Hawkson101 (12/24/03 02:21 AM)
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#28728 - 09/20/04 07:35 PM Re: 2 speakers vs 4 speakers?
demasoni Offline
local

Registered: 09/08/04
Posts: 206
Loc: VA, USA
This thread is old but i'll still try to put in my 2cents, I think hawkson was looking for something similar to a car stereo setup, if that was the case then the rear speakers output level will need to be reduced significantly in order to create that echo effect you normally get from concert or orchestra. I don't know if the HK525 have Time-Delay or not but this little devil play a major role in setup like this, otherwise you'll more than likely trashing the frontstage, and throwing off the imaging. An extra pair of M22ti running in the rear is overkilled, I would opt for a pair of surrounds or M3ti for the rear channel.

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