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#288950 - 01/27/10 08:48 PM Distortion
bdpf Offline
aficionado

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 769
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Hi,

I've had my M80s for 3 weeks now. Tonight, being alone, I finally got an opportunity to push them to see how loud they could get. I have the Denon AVR-890 which is 105W/channel. Depending on what I was playing, I found the sound to start distorting anywhere from +3dB to +8dB. I asked in a previous thread why would some people use an external amp (usually more powerful) instead of their AVR amp, what was the benefit, if it was to prevent distortion at high level. JohnK was kind enough to respond with the following:
 Originally Posted By: JohnK
Bruno, there's no audible difference(including distortion)when an amplifier with a higher maximum output capacity is used unless that higher max is actually used; unused headroom is simply that: unused.

For a comfortably loud average level in the mid 80s of dB level, only about 1 watt is needed. A 1000 watt amplifier won't be different from a 10 watt amplifier there. Brief split-second peaks will use much more, of course, but not likely anything that typical receivers(such as your 890)rated anywhere in the 100 watt area can't handle with audible transparency. You, not the amplifier, are in control of the loudness level.


So now my question is if 100W/ch is enough, why are my M80s starting to distort? My receiver goes up to +18db, why can't I push them to this level without distortion?

Don't get me wrong, +3db is more than I need for my room size, and I will have them very rarely at this level, however if I would have a much bigger room, that would have been a problem.

Also, I played at +5dB for about 45min (neighbor, if you're reading this, I apologize ) and even though the receiver didn't shut off, it got very hot. Is this normal?

Thanks,

Bruno
_________________________
Bruno
M80s/VP180/QS8s/EP600/AVR-890
------------------------------------
"The problem is choice..."

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#288951 - 01/27/10 09:14 PM Re: Distortion [Re: bdpf]
htnut
Unregistered


Wow, that is loud. I don't think JohnK realized you were playing that loud (he said ~ 85dB was OK but you are well exceeding that). You will need an amp.

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#288952 - 01/27/10 09:22 PM Re: Distortion [Re: ]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6717
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.
No one needs any more than a 100 watt receiver, it has been said, so it is so
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#288956 - 01/27/10 09:55 PM Re: Distortion [Re: bdpf]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10307
Bruno, the numbers on the receiver volume control don't accurately measure the actual sound level that's being achieved. This has to be measured with an SPL meter. If you do this it's highly likely that you'll find that peaks played at a safe level(say about 105dB)are handled well by your 890. And no, you certainly can't assume that you can turn the volume up to +18 just because that number is on the scale. With some input levels(whispers would be okay)that could far exceed the capability of the receiver(and your ears as well).
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#288959 - 01/27/10 10:01 PM Re: Distortion [Re: Wid]
htnut
Unregistered


 Originally Posted By: wid
No one needs any more than a 100 watt receiver, it has been said, so it is so



Maybe in theory, but not all receivers put out their "rated" power in reality. If one wishes to listen at 115dB levels then 100W won't cut it. Not everyone is sitting 1m / 3ft from their speakers either.

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#288960 - 01/27/10 10:07 PM Re: Distortion [Re: ]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6717
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.

If you know me you know I wasn't serious. I have 2 300 watt amps connected to my M80s. I am and always have been an advocate of buying as much power as you can comfortably afford.
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#288961 - 01/27/10 10:11 PM Re: Distortion [Re: Wid]
htnut
Unregistered


 Originally Posted By: wid

If you know me you know I wasn't serious. I have 2 300 watt amps connected to my M80s. I am and always have been an advocate of buying as much power as you can comfortably afford.



My apologies, I am still new here and getting to know everyone :).

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#288962 - 01/27/10 10:13 PM Re: Distortion [Re: ]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6717
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.

No problem and no need to apologize.
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#288963 - 01/27/10 10:26 PM Re: Distortion [Re: ]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10307
Nut, yes all receivers do put out their rated power; this is governed by FTC regulations, and failure to do so would be a violation of the law.

Certainly one who "wishes to listen" at 115dB would need on the order of 1000 watts for that with speakers of typical sensitivity(such as the Axioms). However that listening level would be tantamount to aural suicide.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#288969 - 01/27/10 11:00 PM Re: Distortion [Re: JohnK]
bdpf Offline
aficionado

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 769
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Like I said, this is not my typical listening level due to my room size (20x11ft). I was just curious. But lets assume I would take my setup to a party with a bigger space, let's say 200x200ft, in that case I would need this kind of level to fill up the room, so I guess in that case I would need separate amps.

JohnK, when you talk about 85dB or 105dB, what is the reference used? How does that translate related to whatever is displayed on the receiver? Typically, what is the volume in dB when the receiver is displays 0dB? I apologize if that seems very basic but I am very new to this and am trying to understand. Thanks.
_________________________
Bruno
M80s/VP180/QS8s/EP600/AVR-890
------------------------------------
"The problem is choice..."

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