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#290018 - 02/02/10 12:12 PM Re: Suggestions for New Axiom Speakers [Re: pmbuko]
Ken.C Online   content
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17754
Loc: NoVA
Charles and Fred, I don't mean to say that there's not more to achieve--otherwise they wouldn't be making improvements all the time! But I don't think improvements could be made in the way that 2x6 is suggesting--if they could be, I think Axiom would have. What I'm (and I suspect Peter is) objecting to is the idea that Axiom would be better served by pricing their speakers higher and using esoteric components. Like Peter said, I'm sure they've tried them and found no difference, or none worth speaking of.
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#290021 - 02/02/10 12:14 PM Re: Suggestions for New Axiom Speakers [Re: pmbuko]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3889
Loc: Up yonder
Here we go again….. That old perception verses reality thing. Some believe quality can only be bought and the price tag has a direct correlation to the level of quality achieved.
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#290028 - 02/02/10 12:29 PM Re: Suggestions for New Axiom Speakers [Re: michael_d]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
Another thing I wondered about 2x6's request. He prefers the M3; arguably, Axiom's least linear speaker. Likes the "sound" of tube amps, and uses speaker wire so thin as to add series impedance, which may emphasize the curve of the speaker making it even less linear.

Now, I don't have a problem with people preferring some colorations, over a strictly (I believe the term is Flockhart) flat response. Some high end ($$$) makers purposely tune their speakers for a unique sound to have them stand out against other brands. That's not Axiom's mission though.
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#290029 - 02/02/10 12:29 PM Re: Suggestions for New Axiom Speakers [Re: michael_d]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8280
Loc: Tacoma
Good call, Mike.

However, to be fair, Axiom is not a purely scientific endeavour - it is a business. I am a fan of Axiom products and the Axiom approach. But to think that Ian COULDN'T make a "better" speaker than the M80 is to sell him short and disregard the economic factors inherent in this venture. The question - at some point - becomes whether or not this "better" speaker makes economic sense not only for that model, but also for the rest of the line.

I absolutely believe that delivering a meaningful improvement over the M80 would cost A LOT more. My opinion is that - if something like that were to be offered - it would have to be a ridiculously expensive, custom, boutique product rather than a "value" proposition. That's the only way to bring it to market without cannibalizing the existing customer base.
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#290130 - 02/02/10 09:27 PM Re: Suggestions for New Axiom Speakers [Re: tomtuttle]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3889
Loc: Up yonder
Good points Tom. Anyone in business, with a desire to stay in business, will always have to weigh cost verses benefit.

The one nagging point that I continue to find issue with is this general impression that Axiom is a ‘budget’ speaker. This just isn’t true. For the bulk of residential A/V owners all over the world, the price point of Axiom speakers are not budget, but high. When you (you being anyone reading this) really start to think about it, just how many people do you know that have invested several hundred dollars, and in many cases, thousands on speakers for their system in comparison to the rest of the people you know? I bet that the vast majority will say fewer than 10% of the people they know. The other 90% think that if they buy a HTIB system at Costco, they’ve made a substantial investment.

When considering any of the Axiom systems, the cost is quite high to the average person who does not share the same passion as the very small percentage of audiophiles throughout the world (we are the minority). When considering an M80 / EP 600 system, the cost is considerably high. And then it is even higher if a person opts for that system in piano finish rosewood. So in reality, all Axiom products are ‘high’ end. The crowd who thinks they are ‘budget’ is the very few who think nothing about having an $800 bottle of 05 Chateau Latour with their fillet.

I also know for certain that Ian and his team constantly test and come up with improvements to their speakers. In the five years since I’ve been hanging out here, they have made numerous upgrades and tweaks to improve their product. Some have been discrete, and others have been significant. They just don’t advertise these changes very well. Not only do they make these subtle changes, they are constantly rolling new products out and trying to give potential customers more options and more products to choose from.

One other thing that I admire is Ian’s refusal to compromise his beliefs of just how a speaker should sound to accommodate ignorant perception for increased sales.
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#290132 - 02/02/10 09:42 PM Re: Suggestions for New Axiom Speakers [Re: michael_d]
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
Has anyone taken an Axiom speaker apart and inspected the cross-overs?

What I am saying is that Axiom should reduce the price of its current lineup of speakers - offer a slightly more expensive line of upgraded speakers using upgraded components and then a 3rd line of speakers which target the 'icons.'

I am not saying that any more expensive capacitor or resistor or coil would result in an improved sound. I'll bet that some would.

Further my first question - the cross-over in an M3 the cap and resistor cannot cost much. I have no desire to hurt anyone's feelings by venturing a guess as to how much those parts cost.
What do you think a 5 1/2" or 6 1/2" axiom driver costs? I have an idea, but again, I'll keep it to myself. The 1" tweeter? the mdf cabinet?

Axiom speakers are wonderful but basic efforts. There is no internal metal structure like in some speakers, but they get the job done. I think axiom could sell the current line of speakers at a significantly lower price - no middle man, and sell alot of them.

Just my 2 shekels.
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#290134 - 02/02/10 09:49 PM Re: Suggestions for New Axiom Speakers [Re: michael_d]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6609
Loc: It's all about the location.
To add to what Michael mentioned there, I think to some degree, there is a very real anxiety amongst some of the retail stores when it comes to internet based companies and the insiders try to then instill some fear into the buying public. Before I purchased my Axioms, a couple of dealers(won't mention names) tried to do this to me for considering them vs their own offering. That's nothing new to me actually, a lot of salespeople think they have nothing to lose if you're ready to buy something else, so they'll say just about anything.
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#290140 - 02/02/10 10:22 PM Re: Suggestions for New Axiom Speakers [Re: Adrian]
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
I read the article. Interesting.

I think it was Colin Flood's review that got me to thinking about Axiom speakers. Then Ian Masters'. Reviews are powerful, and clearly manufacturers cultivate and perhaps even 'water' these reviewers.

Hope for the best and trust your ears.
_________________________
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#290145 - 02/02/10 10:46 PM Re: Suggestions for New Axiom Speakers [Re: 2x6spds]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16268
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
 Originally Posted By: 2x6spds
Has anyone taken an Axiom speaker apart and inspected the cross-overs?

A fair number of people have. A crossover doesn't need to look beautiful to function as intended.

 Originally Posted By: 2x6spds
What I am saying is that Axiom should reduce the price of its current lineup of speakers - offer a slightly more expensive line of upgraded speakers using upgraded components and then a 3rd line of speakers which target the 'icons.'

They'll take that under advisement.

 Originally Posted By: 2x6spds
Further my first question - the cross-over in an M3 the cap and resistor cannot cost much. I have no desire to hurt anyone's feelings by venturing a guess as to how much those parts cost.
What do you think a 5 1/2" or 6 1/2" axiom driver costs? I have an idea, but again, I'll keep it to myself. The 1" tweeter? the mdf cabinet?

Axiom speakers are wonderful but basic efforts. There is no internal metal structure like in some speakers, but they get the job done.

I'm sure Axiom appreciates your tact, but I think you're operating on assumptions piled upon assumptions here. True, other speakers which cost and weigh a lot more than Axioms (and some would say sound better) do use more expensive components and significant internal bracing. The geometry of Axiom cabinets reduces the need for significant internal bracing. Bracing for the sake of bracing is pointless. It needs to make an audible difference. So do all of your suggestions. If the change does not make a difference that's reliably noticeable in a double-blind test, there's no point in bringing it to market. This is how Axiom operates.

 Originally Posted By: 2x6spds
Just my 2 shekels.

Two shekels are worth US$0.54, so you've already said too much. ;\)
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#290147 - 02/02/10 10:49 PM Re: Suggestions for New Axiom Speakers [Re: 2x6spds]
htnut
Unregistered


What sort of price range and name brands/models do you all considered "high end?" Do any of them sell direct online?

I would wager that if Axiom ventured into this market they would need to offer free in home trial with free shipping both ways. Consumers in this niche will not do a blind purchase. Paying for two way shipping may inflate the price overall, but if price and looks leads to the perception of a superior product then it won't be noticed.

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