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#290277 - 02/03/10 02:41 PM Re: Suggestions for New Axiom Speakers [Re: 2x6spds]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16272
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
 Originally Posted By: 2x6spds
The point is not whether I prefer the Ushers, or whether I can afford them, it is that Axiom should identify the best speakers in class and try to match them at a much lower price.

I think everybody does understand that this is your main point. You want Usher-like sound for non-Usher prices, from Axiom. It seems that you have this desire based only upon a frequency response graph. I asked before, but I'll ask again:

2x6, have you or have you not:
  1. heard the Usher speakers you're holding up as a model?
  2. been able to compare them to any Axiom speakers in the same setting?
These are basic questions. On what foundation are you placing your premise?

 Originally Posted By: 2x6spds
Now, wid, kcarlie [sic] and pmbuko seem to be unwilling to accept the premise of my post. Instead of dealing with my point, they take my suggestion as an insult to Axiom, in general, to Ian, in particular, and now suggest if I like the Ushers so much why don't I save up and buy a pair. This is obtuse ... but by choice.

Is that any more obtuse than calling Axiom speakers "wonderful but basic efforts" ? Is that not an insult to Axiom, a company that has worked for nearly three decades to bring consumers ever increasing sound quality for extremely reasonable prices?

 Originally Posted By: 2x6spds
pmb and kcarlie [sic] - A claque of flacks - you don't do Axiom proud in my opinion.

Ad hominem attacks don't help your case.
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#290278 - 02/03/10 02:41 PM Re: Suggestions for New Axiom Speakers [Re: BlueJays1]
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
Hi Doc

Aperion, Epos, CBMs, Energy Speakers - there are a bunch of speakers at the Axiom price point which are very good.

Then there are speakers significantly more expensive, some of which I've heard, and others I have only heard about, including Magnepan, Definitive Technology, Anthony Gallo, Totem Acoustic, Ushers, Dynaudio, Harbeth, Spendor, which I'd like to see Axiom match or better at an Axiom price.
_________________________
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#290280 - 02/03/10 02:50 PM Re: Suggestions for New Axiom Speakers [Re: 2x6spds]
BlueJays1 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 4078
Loc: Porch,enjoying Bombay Sapphire
 Originally Posted By: 2x6spds
Hi Doc

Aperion, Epos, CBMs, Energy Speakers - there are a bunch of speakers at the Axiom price point which are very good.

Then there are speakers significantly more expensive, some of which I've heard, and others I have only heard about, including Magnepan, Definitive Technology, Anthony Gallo, Totem Acoustic, Ushers, Dynaudio, Harbeth, Spendor, which I'd like to see Axiom match or better at an Axiom price.


I don't quite understand what you mean by match or better. Is it a flatter frequency response/on-off axis/waterfall plots or just a speaker with a better braced cabinet, better drivers/tweeter, nicer looking crossover parts. They are correlated to frequency response/on-off axis but the designer still my not go for the flatest frequency response/neutral sound as possible. "High end" speakers does not mean "better sound" though in some cases it does (B&W 800 series). Some axiom speakers measure better than more expensive speakers...some don't. Same goes for subjective listening.

I am just trying to understand what you want to improve and the reasons why.
_________________________
I’m armed and I’m drinking. You don’t want to listen to advice from me, amigo.

-Max Payne

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#290281 - 02/03/10 02:55 PM Re: Suggestions for New Axiom Speakers [Re: BlueJays1]
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
I don't know that a frequency response curve is a sufficient description of a speaker's sound quality. The M22s have a remarkably flat fr plot and I like the sound, no love. The M3s plot is not as flat, but I like them better. Thiel plots are better and I love the sound. Maybe the fr plot reveals flaws in the speaker's performance but does not guaranty a great sound.

Somebody has to listen the speakers and 'voice' them. Not a bad job especially if you own the company.

I agree that Axioms sound better than many "high end" speakers. When I refer to 'iconic' speakers I mean speakers known for their sound quality. Many are very expensive. Some, not so expensive.


Edited by 2x6spds (02/03/10 02:57 PM)
_________________________
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#290282 - 02/03/10 03:08 PM Re: Suggestions for New Axiom Speakers [Re: 2x6spds]
htnut
Unregistered


 Originally Posted By: 2x6spds
I don't know that a frequency response curve is a sufficient description of a speaker's sound quality. The M22s have a remarkably flat fr plot and I like the sound, no love. The M3s plot is not as flat, but I like them better. Thiel plots are better and I love the sound. Maybe the fr plot reveals flaws in the speaker's performance but does not guaranty a great sound.

Somebody has to listen the speakers and 'voice' them. Not a bad job especially if you own the company.

I agree that Axioms sound better than many "high end" speakers. When I refer to 'iconic' speakers I mean speakers known for their sound quality. Many are very expensive. Some, not so expensive.



Frequency response curves and measurements are the only objective tools I know of to compare speakers. Everything else is subjective. Having said that, the subjective part is important too, otherwise Axiom would not incorporate DBT's.


Edited by htnut (02/03/10 03:08 PM)

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#290283 - 02/03/10 03:12 PM Re: Suggestions for New Axiom Speakers [Re: 2x6spds]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
 Originally Posted By: 2x6spds
My tastes in audio equipment is broader than simply M3s driven by a SET tube amp. Anyone who presumes that the tube amp is a distortion generator, words of one of our resident gurus around here, is simply wrong.

A Single Ended Triode tube amp with no negative feedback will easily have 100 times the total harmonic distortion of a solid state, push-pull, with feedback. Granted, the distortion of a SET has a large even-order harmonic component, where as the negative feedback leaves a little odd-order. So the "tube sound" is described as warm or fat, much as playing a chord sounds fuller than a single note, vs. disharmony of random notes which would be compared to odd-order harmonics.

 Quote:
As to the M3s, yes they are not perfect. That's my point. Although they have what to my ears is a richer sound than the M22s (mine are white) they have an audible hump and hole. BUT, I believe the M3s could be improved to be really world class speakers.

"Richer" sound can easily be attributed to a mid-bass hump.
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
-Chris

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#290285 - 02/03/10 04:00 PM Re: Suggestions for New Axiom Speakers [Re: 2x6spds]
BlueJays1 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 4078
Loc: Porch,enjoying Bombay Sapphire
 Originally Posted By: 2x6spds
I don't know that a frequency response curve is a sufficient description of a speaker's sound quality. The M22s have a remarkably flat fr plot and I like the sound, no love. The M3s plot is not as flat, but I like them better. Thiel plots are better and I love the sound. Maybe the fr plot reveals flaws in the speaker's performance but does not guaranty a great sound.



From your original post and the graphs you posted I assumed that was your argument regarding how those speakers were better than Axioms. Why did you post response curves in your initial argument? Colour me confused .

Regarding more expensive crossover parts, unless you are changing values/redesigning the crossover this will impact loudspeaker performance. Swapping out the crossover for more expensive parts would be personally the last thing I would do to improve a commercial loudspeaker.You would be raising costs with no improvement in sound quality. It will improve the internal looks (which you don't see). I would look towards the cabinet first (resonance) in commercial loudspeakers which have an audible/measurable impact on sound quality.

_________________________
I’m armed and I’m drinking. You don’t want to listen to advice from me, amigo.

-Max Payne

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#290286 - 02/03/10 04:05 PM Re: Suggestions for New Axiom Speakers [Re: BlueJays1]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8283
Loc: Tacoma
 Quote:
I'd like to see Axiom match or better at an Axiom price


Perhaps Ian and others would contend they are already doing this?
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bibere usque ad hilaritatem

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#290287 - 02/03/10 04:19 PM Re: Suggestions for New Axiom Speakers [Re: ClubNeon]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
I think a lot of people are getting miffed about nothing. 2x6 offered a suggestion which I interpreted to mean Axiom should consider producing more than one “line” of speakers (high, middle, low) like most other manufactures. And that with Axiom’s expertise in price/performance they could blow the “higher” end competition out of the water with better performance at a lower price. If my interpretation of his intent is correct I see nothing wrong with it on the surface as most other manufactures use a multi-tiered model quite successfully. However, IMO it’s a marketing gimmick based on “price discrimination.” While it’s an effective business model it tends to lock the buyer in.

I said “on the surface” because I feel that type of model would deviate from what I see as a unique Axiom philosophy of making “purpose built” speakers which are all designed to work together depending on ones needs. So rather than “tiered” speaker lines Axiom allows the selection of “tiered” systems based on such things as room size and listening habits. I remember reading one review a long time ago where the reviewer gave kudos to Axiom for recognizing the importance of the relationship between room size and speaker size and not just that bigger is always better. The ubiquitous nature of Axiom’s speakers offers me the user a great deal more flexibility in my speaker purchase and use than had I chosen to go with a manufacture who made speaker lines that were not necessarily sonically compatible with each other.

I don’t want to see Axiom develop a “high end speaker line” simply because it will just make them more like the rest of the competition.

On a side note another part of what I see as the “Axiom Philosophy” that I like is to start out buy building a great speaker and then just tweak it’s performance over time. I hate when companies keep running out “new speaker lines” as if speaker technology has just suddenly taken a great leap forward.

More generally this is what I see as “Axiom’s Philosophy” (some might say business model but since I feel they have a lot of passion for what they do I would say it goes beyond just a business model) One large interchangeable group of purpose built speakers offering more flexibility than any other maker. Sticking with tried and true designs and just tweaking them over time or introducing only new designs that perform a specific function (in/on wall, outdoor) extend and existing capability (EP800). Honesty in pricing (i.e. no huge “sales” and shipping included in the price). All these point to two things I don’t see to the same degree in any other speaker manufacture. Confidence in there product and respect for their customers (i.e. no attempt to lure people to buy the latest and greatest or jump on this weeks super deal).

Cheers,
Dean

_________________________
3M80 2M22 6QS8 2M2 1EP500 Sony BDP-S590 Panny-7000 Onkyo-3007 Carada-134 Xbox Buttkicker AS-EQ1

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#290288 - 02/03/10 04:23 PM Re: Suggestions for New Axiom Speakers [Re: tomtuttle]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3903
Loc: Up yonder
I don’t know the answer, I’m asking…….

If someone believes that a graph is a good representation of how a speaker will sound, and that person compares speaker A graph to speaker B graph, is this a valid comparison? In other words, if different equipment is used on both speakers and the room (environment) is different, isn’t it safe to assume that the comparison would be flawed?
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