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#293067 - 02/19/10 05:44 PM Re: Maybe Al Gore is onto something... [Re: Adrian]
CatBrat Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 5798
Loc: Some random location
Remember the monkey that recently tried to rip the face off of a woman. I wouldn't say that monkeys act the same morally as humans do. Every watch them pick at each others butts at the zoo.

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#293068 - 02/19/10 06:00 PM Re: Maybe Al Gore is onto something... [Re: Adrian]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8268
Loc: Tacoma

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#293089 - 02/19/10 09:33 PM Re: Maybe Al Gore is onto something... [Re: CatBrat]
BlueJays1 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 4070
Loc: Porch,enjoying Bombay Sapphire
 Originally Posted By: CatBrat
Remember the monkey that recently tried to rip the face off of a woman. I wouldn't say that monkeys act the same morally as humans do. Every watch them pick at each others butts at the zoo.


Domesticating a wild animal in a non-controlled environment. What a brilliant idea!
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#293094 - 02/19/10 10:38 PM Re: Maybe Al Gore is onto something... [Re: grunt]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7031
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
Being a social construct science can not exist in a society w/o being socially influenced.

Hmmm... I think we are talking about slightly different things.

Perhaps it is better to say that the scientific method is the best way to discover the basic nature of things. It is the application of scientific method, or the results of scientific method that is the socialization of politicization of science.

There is a basic human characteristic that is essential for good basic science to happen: intense curiosity. My brother worked as a research lab tech for years, and those who did the best science had that one characteristic in common. Intense curiosity drives people to ignore the social consequences of their research.

My brothers boss of many years was a good example of someone who had both the social skills to survive the politics of funding and the intense curiosity to do very good science. It is people like these that often form dissenting voices that eventually take science in new directions.
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#293096 - 02/19/10 10:40 PM Re: Maybe Al Gore is onto something... [Re: BlueJays1]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16259
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
People forget that real domestication takes quite a few generations.





Hell, my kids are still works in progress.
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#293100 - 02/19/10 10:54 PM Re: Maybe Al Gore is onto something... [Re: grunt]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7031
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
Science must deconstruct the universe to understand it since it's improbable that one could understand everything all at one.

Yes, that is the role of basic science. Applied science, on the other hand, is the opposite. It takes multiple bits of basic science and builds it back up into something we use to manipulate our environment.

Basic science deconstructs to get a set of basic tools or building blocks. Applied science then picks up the blocks and tools and builds something.

In the midst of all this we have manipulators that try to hide certain blocks or tools or mis-apply them for their own gain.

To say science is flawed is an over-generalization.

Either way, politicization by both the extreme left and right is not particularly helpful in a debate that may very well have a significant impact on our near term well being.

I look at the whole climate debate from a different angle: what are the consequences of being wrong on either side of the debate.

If climate scientists are wrong, we spend a bunch of billions on reducing our impact on the planet and at the very least improve the quality of the air we breath and the water we drink.

If the other side is wrong and we do nothing, we cause wholesale change in our climate and also cause a whole lot of death destruction and misery.

I figure that the wealthiest 2% of the population can afford a few billion in insurance.
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#293102 - 02/19/10 11:06 PM Re: Maybe Al Gore is onto something... [Re: Da_Gimp_Pimp]
bigwill2 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 03/25/05
Posts: 586
Perhaps it is because you live in the idyllic hinterlands of the north :), but it appears you have not met many of the people I have, if you believe that they are all in posession of a moral compass such as yours.

Comparing man to animals makes perfect sense because man is an animal. Having discarded superstition that should be easy to discern, eh?

Also, you mistook my support for the absolutes that religion provides for actual belief in the divine. That is not the case.

But laws and gov't do provide a measure of disincentive to people who would otherwise have no qualms with all sorts of barbarity. Man's inhumanity to man has been pretty well established by now.


Edited by bigwill2 (02/19/10 11:06 PM)

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#293107 - 02/19/10 11:28 PM Re: Maybe Al Gore is onto something... [Re: fredk]
CV Online   confused
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11144
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
Not responding to anyone in particular....

I agree with whoever said science is a tool, nothing more and nothing less. It certainly is a valuable process for understanding and manipulating tiny pieces of the universe. I feel pretty safe in saying it's never going to answer the big questions that give meaning to life, though. No matter how many experiments are done, it's going to fall short. There's simply no replacement for God or whatever your belief system calls it when it comes to filling in the void. Our ignorance is always going to be greater than our knowledge. If God exists in our ignorance, then he's always going to be a more powerful force than science can ever hope to be. Even scientists have Mother Nature. Oh, the mysteries of Mother Nature. They acknowledge there's some unseen force at work. The universe works SOMEHOW. I don't think we should bury our heads in the sand and ignore our own curiosity, but I also don't see how believing in some distant triumph of science over the universe is productive. There's nothing sacred about it. Maybe every religion is a fiction--I'm not qualified to say--but at least they don't pretend that everything is going to be revealed to us. It makes no sense to me when people try to prop science up as any sort of rebuttal to faith.
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#293111 - 02/19/10 11:59 PM Re: Maybe Al Gore is onto something... [Re: CV]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16259
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
CV, I share your frustration about people portraying science as a replacement for religion. I do, however, find fault with this:

 Originally Posted By: CV
Maybe every religion is a fiction--I'm not qualified to say--but at least they don't pretend that everything is going to be revealed to us

That all will be revealed in heaven is one of Christianity's (alleged) rewards for living a life that pleases the gatekeeper.
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#293114 - 02/20/10 12:07 AM Re: Maybe Al Gore is onto something... [Re: pmbuko]
CV Online   confused
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11144
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
Oh, I thought we just went there to sing praises for eternity. How is anyone going to learn anything over the singing? Maybe that's one of the things we'll learn.
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