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#316594 - 07/25/10 07:54 AM yamaha rx-v3900 questions
Ken_s Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 07/25/10
Posts: 11
Since this receiver is on clearance for 999 @ local retailer and it has so many features I am going to snag one this week. My concerns (Dean answered a few of them in another forum and recommended coming on here) are the yamaha only supports 4ohm for the front main spkrs which I am looking at m80's should be enough but was mentioned that I should look at going to the vp180 than the vp150's due to them matching better. My room is huge 15x20 with vaulted ceilings all the way up pass the second floor. I also have a large dinning area that joins the living area. 5-6000 cubic ft I am guestimatin and looking to get an amp for the 4ohm issue in the future is a possibilty
The v3900 does support 6ohm center channel and I am wondering how this would effect the vp180 vs the 150. I think I would not benefit from running the vp180's at 6ohm. Also was looking at svs for the sub. im guessing the plus 12's should be sufficient. I will be 14ft away from the front speakers.

The next concern is the yamaha receiver has bi-amplification. I see on the axiom cust. page you can order the axiom sets with the biamp connection. Should I set these up this way? or use the more traditional way of hooking them up? Thank you for any info/recommendations/help.
Ken

The v3900 does support 6ohm center channel and I am wondering how this would effect the vp180 vs the 150. I think I would not benefit fromc





















Edited by Ken_s (07/25/10 07:57 AM)

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#316602 - 07/25/10 11:36 AM Re: yamaha rx-v3900 questions [Re: Ken_s]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
Ken I forgot I should have mentioned that responses tend to be slow around here on the weekends. It’s not a big forum and most of these audiophiles seem to actually have lives. shocked Just give it until Monday at least.
_________________________
3M80 2M22 6QS8 2M2 1EP500 Sony BDP-S590 Panny-7000 Onkyo-3007 Carada-134 Xbox Buttkicker AS-EQ1

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#316604 - 07/25/10 12:21 PM Re: yamaha rx-v3900 questions [Re: Ken_s]
alan Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 3186
Loc: Toronto/New York/Dwight
Hi Ken,

Historically, I used to advise forum members who were getting the 4-ohm M80s to avoid Yamaha and Onkyo and go with Denon, whose receivers generally seemed to be more stable into 4-ohm loads---even the entry-level models.

Since then, Yamaha and ONkyo have some upper-tier expensive units that will support 4-ohm loads. However, I think it's a bit "iffy" for you on the model you're considering if you use the VP-180 with M80 mains, ESPECIALLY in the huge room. Receivers just do not have huge power supplies and endless amounts of power into low impedances. If you want really excessively loud (to me) playback in huge rooms (and the M80s will do it cleanly when fed hundreds of clean watts), then you'll need an outboard power amp. If you use the VP150, it's easy to drive and a decent center (no match for the VP180) until such time as you have the stable 4-ohm power for all three front channels. You might find a Denon AV receiver that will do that right now if you don't demand ear-deafening playback like some demand.

Cheers,
Alan

B
_________________________
Alan Lofft,
Axiom Resident Expert

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#316610 - 07/25/10 12:55 PM Re: yamaha rx-v3900 questions [Re: alan]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
Don't bother with the bi-amplification on any model of receiver. It's just there because "everyone else is doing it".

I do have to applaud Axiom for removing the dual set of posts from their new V3 speakers. They've long stood that bi-amping does nothing, but shipped speakers with the option built in, as a contradiction to themselves. Now, with the V3s, having the extra posts added means a 10 day wait is added to your order, because they are not normally assembled that way.
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
-Chris

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#316611 - 07/25/10 12:59 PM Re: yamaha rx-v3900 questions [Re: ClubNeon]
Ichigo_Kurosaki Offline
devotee

Registered: 06/18/10
Posts: 463
Loc: Japan
What happens when you try to play the speakers on a very high level and there is no enough power coming from the receiver? Will it shut down? Sorry for the noob question.
_________________________
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.

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#316615 - 07/25/10 01:07 PM Re: yamaha rx-v3900 questions [Re: Ichigo_Kurosaki]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3448
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
Unfortunately receivers don't shut down soon enough. When they run out of power to reproduce the requested waveform, they tend to "clip" the peaks of the signal off. This clipping is a very harmful form of distortion, which will eventually damage the speakers.

Left clipping long enough the receiver will shut down, but that may be too late. It's hard to describe in words how clipping sounds, but it's not good. If you turn a system up really loud and it starts sounding distorted, grainy, harsh, you've gone too far, ease off before you break something. Don't rely on the shutdown protection.

On the other hand, sometimes you can still push a receiver too hard without it running out of power. Using a speaker with too low of an impedance will cause the output devices to produce more heat than with a higher impedance speaker. If the heat builds up too quickly, the thermal protection of the receiver can kick in, and shut it down. That's not as dangerous to the speakers, as clipping, but the extra thermal stress on the receiver may shorten it's life. Plus it's annoying to have it turn off right when you're starting to rock out.
_________________________
Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K, PDP-5020FD, DV-79AVi
Axiom M22s, VP150, QS8s
Sony PS3, surround backs
-Chris

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#316621 - 07/25/10 02:26 PM Re: yamaha rx-v3900 questions [Re: ClubNeon]
Ken_s Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 07/25/10
Posts: 11
thanks for the great info. biamp is defintely out. I am clueless about the denons or onkyo do you have a recommendation in the 1500 or below range that would rock the m80/vp180 stable. the 3808 i see is on clearance is there any issues with it? does it do video processing well like the yammy with the anchor bay chip? I do not know much about denon's except there manual can be a bit technical. Guess I need to read up on them. so which models are do's and which are dont's. We listen to movies/tv majority of the time and music about 20% or so. I want to go for the theater effect. thanks againg for all the great info. about the svs sub queestion I asked any recommendations that pair well or will the ep500 or 600 do the job. if i go with a svs i would need to wait a pay check or two to snag it. I see the denon 4310 for 1500 online



Edited by Ken_s (07/25/10 02:30 PM)

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#316626 - 07/25/10 03:24 PM Re: yamaha rx-v3900 questions [Re: Ken_s]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11159
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
Several of the members here bought the 3808 when it was the hot item, and I think the approval is pretty much unanimous. I'll let the owners reply in detail. I'll say that some of the features make me jealous.
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#316628 - 07/25/10 03:53 PM Re: yamaha rx-v3900 questions [Re: ClubNeon]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
Originally Posted By: ClubNeon

Unfortunately receivers don't shut down soon enough. When they run out of power to reproduce the requested waveform, they tend to "clip" the peaks of the signal off. This clipping is a very harmful form of distortion, which will eventually damage the speakers


This was my experience with my Denon 2807 which I never got to shut down but did get it to clip.

Originally Posted By: ClubNeon

On the other hand, sometimes you can still push a receiver too hard without it running out of power. Using a speaker with too low of an impedance will cause the output devices to produce more heat than with a higher impedance speaker. If the heat builds up too quickly, the thermal protection of the receiver can kick in, and shut it down. That's not as dangerous to the speakers, as clipping, but the extra thermal stress on the receiver may shorten it's life. Plus it's annoying to have it turn off right when you're starting to rock out.


This was my experience with my Onkyo 3007 when I tested it out. Never clipped but finally shut down after 2 hours at 100-105dB.
_________________________
3M80 2M22 6QS8 2M2 1EP500 Sony BDP-S590 Panny-7000 Onkyo-3007 Carada-134 Xbox Buttkicker AS-EQ1

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#316630 - 07/25/10 04:07 PM Re: yamaha rx-v3900 questions [Re: grunt]
grunt Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 3569
Loc: Nirvana
Both Denon and Onkyo are rolling out their new models so now is actually a good time to get one of this years. The Denon 3807 is solid as is the Onkyo 3007 (which I presently use with my 3 M80s and either 6 QS8s or 4 QS7s and 2 M2s depending on if I’m using the height or wide option).

Like Alan said to get the most out of the M80s in a large room a separate Amp doesn’t hurt but your going to want a good modern receiver anyway so I would get one of those now and if you find you want things louder and still sounding clean you can always add an amp/amps later. A couple forum member are using the Emotiva XPA-3 to run their 3 front speaker while using the receiver to run the surrounds and rears. However, IMO anything in the Denon 3808 or Onkyo 3007 range or higher should be fine driving 2 M80s a VP180 and surrounds/rears in your room at 85-90dB average which over time will cause hearing loss because of how loud it is. wink

As for which is better Denon or Onkyo I thinks it’s a matter of what you want. As I posted previously my experience is that Denons will not shut down before are damaging your speakers where as Onkyos will. Another poster at AVS damaged his M60s using a Denon 2807 for this very reason. More generally I feel that Denon’s features lean more toward the power user or tweaker as the controls are more easily customized. OTOH Onkyo is more geared toward the casual user. They do the same things as the Denons just not always as easy to customize since the Onkyo takes care of more things for you so it’s not always as easy to tweak but easier to run out of the box.

Cheers,
Dean
_________________________
3M80 2M22 6QS8 2M2 1EP500 Sony BDP-S590 Panny-7000 Onkyo-3007 Carada-134 Xbox Buttkicker AS-EQ1

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#316638 - 07/25/10 06:12 PM Re: yamaha rx-v3900 questions [Re: grunt]
Ken_s Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 07/25/10
Posts: 11
im looking at the denon 4310 ci 130W and it has the Anchor bay chip like the yammy so that is a good thing. see them roughly 1300 after digging some more. its wortht he couple hundred if this things are stable at 4ohm and can run them without an amp and if I need to in the future go with an amp. Im glad I checked on here before pulling the trigger. Now I can wait a couple of weeks before buying the receiver and go ahead and order the speakers as well. I think my ears will be very very happy. I actually have an electronics degree but seldom use it in the IT field or hi quality sound field smile so I like to tweak things and muddle with them. Also the denon 4310 has 6hdmi2out. AWESOME! So m80 and vp180's here I come.

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#316639 - 07/25/10 06:15 PM Re: yamaha rx-v3900 questions [Re: Ken_s]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11159
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
That's exciting. Great gear!
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SuperGrand UltraDeluxe (Plus Extra More)

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#316644 - 07/25/10 07:04 PM Re: yamaha rx-v3900 questions [Re: Ken_s]
Tico Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 06/15/10
Posts: 27
Loc: Orlando, Florida
Ken,

This past Friday I picked up a Denon 4310CI at Best Buy for $1,599.00. It was on sale for $1,799.00 but I asked the manager for a couple hundred off.

Can't comment on its performance, though, since my Axiom speakers don't arrive till Wednesday and it's just sitting in the box.
_________________________
Epic 100-500-180
Denon 4311CI

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#316668 - 07/25/10 08:48 PM Re: yamaha rx-v3900 questions [Re: grunt]
Ichigo_Kurosaki Offline
devotee

Registered: 06/18/10
Posts: 463
Loc: Japan
Originally Posted By: grunt
[quote=ClubNeon]
This was my experience with my Onkyo 3007 when I tested it out. Never clipped but finally shut down after 2 hours at 100-105dB.


As for me, since the room is small I can't get past -30 Db for most of my music. Guess I will never get this loud unless I am listening on stereo mode, which does not play as loud as Dolby Prologic II.
_________________________
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.

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#316670 - 07/25/10 08:50 PM Re: yamaha rx-v3900 questions [Re: Ken_s]
SatKartr Offline
aficionado

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 608
Loc: Dallas
I'm so glad you've decided to switch horses, I believe you'll be very happy with the Denon, I didn't want to say anything but I tried messing with a cheap Yamaha a while back (just before the 3900 was released) just for the preamplifier stage and I was afraid you were in for a world of hurt if you went the Yammy route to pair with Axioms, especially with a vp180 on the horizon.

Enjoy!
_________________________
"If you try to turn toward it, you go against it."

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#316679 - 07/25/10 10:46 PM Re: yamaha rx-v3900 questions [Re: SatKartr]
Ken_s Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 07/25/10
Posts: 11
I do not want to make the wrong choice. Especially when money is at stake. I am really digging the denon specs. Been reading the manual on it. Someone mentioned that the network feature on it would not connect to his NAS server to stream music that they had to add it to the playlist in windows. I am running freeNAS but have my drives mapped to my win7 box. Hopefully it will pick up the 2TB I have on there. I started out looking at the aperion set but what sold me on the axiom was the actual videos on the page explaining different spkr sets and the better warranty. I will post back on here once I get the setup up and going will be several weeks. Again Thanks a MILLION!

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#316681 - 07/25/10 11:16 PM Re: yamaha rx-v3900 questions [Re: Ken_s]
Ichigo_Kurosaki Offline
devotee

Registered: 06/18/10
Posts: 463
Loc: Japan
Originally Posted By: Ken_s
I do not want to make the wrong choice. Especially when money is at stake. I am really digging the denon specs. Been reading the manual on it. Someone mentioned that the network feature on it would not connect to his NAS server to stream music that they had to add it to the playlist in windows. I am running freeNAS but have my drives mapped to my win7 box. Hopefully it will pick up the 2TB I have on there. I started out looking at the aperion set but what sold me on the axiom was the actual videos on the page explaining different spkr sets and the better warranty. I will post back on here once I get the setup up and going will be several weeks. Again Thanks a MILLION!


Congratulations. I am the newest Axiom owner here on forum I guess. Couldn't be happier at my set up. Guess you will be happier since you are going for floorstanders. Since my room is small the 3 M22's I have for front speakers are more than enough. Glad the right choice was made by me. smile
_________________________
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.

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#316685 - 07/26/10 12:02 AM Re: yamaha rx-v3900 questions [Re: Ichigo_Kurosaki]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11159
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
Originally Posted By: Ichigo_Kurosaki
Glad the right choice was made by me. smile




You have chosen... wisely.
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SuperGrand UltraDeluxe (Plus Extra More)

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#316692 - 07/26/10 01:19 AM Re: yamaha rx-v3900 questions [Re: CV]
St_PatGuy Offline
axiomite

Registered: 03/07/05
Posts: 7395
Loc: Glendale, Arizona
I just watched that a few weeks ago!
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"Nothin' up my sleeve. . ." --Bullwinkle J. Moose

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#316693 - 07/26/10 01:20 AM Re: yamaha rx-v3900 questions [Re: St_PatGuy]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11159
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
I should re-watch them. It's been a while for me.
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#316694 - 07/26/10 01:23 AM Re: yamaha rx-v3900 questions [Re: CV]
St_PatGuy Offline
axiomite

Registered: 03/07/05
Posts: 7395
Loc: Glendale, Arizona
Next up is Temple of Doom.

I'm not going in order.

Also, I really enjoy the Indiana Jones ride at Disneyland. It's a complete experience. Even waiting in line is fun.
_________________________
***********
"Nothin' up my sleeve. . ." --Bullwinkle J. Moose

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#316697 - 07/26/10 06:08 AM Re: yamaha rx-v3900 questions [Re: St_PatGuy]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10848
Loc: Central NH
Originally Posted By: St_PatGuy
I'm not going in order.

Dude!


Dude!


Dude?


Not watching in order?


Dude!


_________________________
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::

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#316717 - 07/26/10 10:38 AM Re: yamaha rx-v3900 questions [Re: MarkSJohnson]
Murph Offline
axiomite

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 6768
Loc: PEI, Canada
Don't listen to "the Man", Sean. He's trying to brainwash you into his world of square room, conformity!!!


_________________________
With great power comes Awesome irresponsibility.

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#316736 - 07/26/10 11:57 AM Re: yamaha rx-v3900 questions [Re: Murph]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11159
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
The scarlet letter?
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#316738 - 07/26/10 12:34 PM Re: yamaha rx-v3900 questions [Re: CV]
Murph Offline
axiomite

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 6768
Loc: PEI, Canada
Symbol for Anarchy.
I guess you are not old enough. After all, I barely am.

Edit:
Now is probably a good time to add some Sex Pistols CDs to your selection.


Edited by Murph (07/26/10 12:40 PM)
Edit Reason: makin him buy stuff.
_________________________
With great power comes Awesome irresponsibility.

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#316741 - 07/26/10 12:46 PM Re: yamaha rx-v3900 questions [Re: Murph]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11159
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
smile I figured it was for anarchy and confirmed it by looking at the name of the image file, but I guess I wanted another reason to mention Hesta Prynn.
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#316746 - 07/26/10 01:01 PM Re: yamaha rx-v3900 questions [Re: CV]
Murph Offline
axiomite

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 6768
Loc: PEI, Canada
Well, I had to look up Hesta Prynn so now I feel even older, damn you!!! LOL
_________________________
With great power comes Awesome irresponsibility.

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#316767 - 07/26/10 04:24 PM Re: yamaha rx-v3900 questions [Re: Murph]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16267
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
Isn't Symbol for Anarchy the working title of the solo album that the singer from Negative Orange is working on? I hear it's going to me atonal.
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"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#316777 - 07/26/10 06:14 PM Re: yamaha rx-v3900 questions [Re: pmbuko]
HomeDad Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 3301
Loc: Central,California
Quote:
Also, I really enjoy the Indiana Jones ride at Disneyland. It's a complete experience. Even waiting in line is fun.


Lol, The family and I spending 5 days there next week, I've been trying to stretch my 6yo for the last couple months so he can ride it for the first time. ( he's 45 inches tall you need to be 46" to ride Indiana Jones) If worse come to worse I'll buy him some platforms. smile
_________________________
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.

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#316877 - 07/27/10 12:14 PM Re: yamaha rx-v3900 questions [Re: HomeDad]
Murph Offline
axiomite

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 6768
Loc: PEI, Canada
Weed and Feed?
_________________________
With great power comes Awesome irresponsibility.

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#318921 - 08/17/10 09:14 PM Re: yamaha rx-v3900 questions [Re: Murph]
Ken_s Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 07/25/10
Posts: 11
Wow this thread got off topic....LMAO

Well its been a few weeks now. I have my axiom rear speakers on their way. the q8's. Wife's car broke down so a big chunk of change went to that smile I am actually glad it did because now the denon 4311 receiver is due out in sept. It will support 1.4 and will have the newer audessey as well. If it takes until oct for the release I am fine with that. this is the last post I am making on this thread since my original question was answered and will start a new one once I get my components and have them setup.

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