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#323 - 10/12/01 06:30 PM M80's and Optimum 4ohm Receivers
Anonymous
Unregistered


I would appreciate learning from present Axiom M80 owners
which 4ohm rated receivers you are using to derive optimum
sound from these really good speakers? Please be specific and state your reasons for choosing the A/V or stereo receiver
you're using.

Thanks a lot !!



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#324 - 10/27/01 03:23 PM Re: M80's and Optimum 4ohm Receivers
Anonymous
Unregistered


You are right to consider 4 ohm capable receivers - I tried running the M80Ti with Onkyo Integra 7.1 and trouble trouble trouble.

I have not had any trouble at all running them with OUTLAW 1050 with 4 ohm setting on, nor Marantz SR-19ex (thx ultra certified).

The only way I could get Integra to adequatly drive the M80s is when Axiom made for me a speaker conversion box that changed the impedence of the speaker load (CREDIT TO AXIOM - They made it FREE OF CHARGE).



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#325 - 11/12/01 09:20 PM Re: M80's and Optimum 4ohm Receivers
Anonymous
Unregistered


I run a Denon AVR-5800, the reason features, features and then there are the features. Seriously the amp is capable of driving pretty much anything that you would consider putting into your home with power to spare. I first purchased a Denon AVR-3801, this is also a good amp to drive the M80's it has good power and lots of nice features. I moved this to my family room and bought the 5800 for my HT room.



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#326 - 11/14/01 12:17 AM Re: M80's and Optimum 4ohm Receivers
Anonymous
Unregistered


I am using an older classic Classe power amp (DR-9) to drive the M80's. The amp can drive any speakers made, I use to drive Apogee panel speakers (2ohms). But I could easily drive them with my Denon 4800 (currently used as a pre/pro) also. The M80 are a great set of speakers, they have replaced my Mirage M3's. Man they are so good I am using two sets of cables for biwiring them that cost over $4500CDN. I know Axiom dont really think there is a diff in speaker cables, but I tried a lot and there is diff's. If you want a decent reciever to drive the M80's try the new Denon 4802 since the 4800 is discountinued. I mean the M80's are the cheapest ... rephrased that... lowest cost item I got in my main system. Also have the the VP150 center (Def Tech BP6B as rears and 3 subs - 2 8in and a 15 in). Also using M3 and M1 in another system. Axioms are the best buys outthere for speakers, esp in Canada.



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#327 - 11/14/01 12:20 AM Re: M80's and Optimum 4ohm Receivers
Anonymous
Unregistered


Sorry my post was replying for Jond106



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#328 - 12/23/01 12:44 AM Re: M80's and Optimum 4ohm Receivers
Anonymous
Unregistered


Use the Main Pre-Outs wth a audiophile RCA interconnect such as a Canare or Audio Quest, connect that to an Adcom GFA 555II or 5500 amplifier and connect your Axiom M80Ti's to that. Talk about power and clarity! I have a Marantz SR6200 at 110 watts per channel but theres a BIG difference using separate amps. Great deals on ebay and other places. I picked up 3 of them and now run all separate amps. Adcom GFA 5006, GFA 5400 and GFA 5500. Super nice. If your receiver is in the 100 watt range you could also pick up an Adcom GFA 545II which is a nice amp in the 200 range off ebay.

Good luck! Once you start down the road with separate amps you will never turn back! : )

Acurus is another amp that won't break the bank but has excellent quality and sound, good pricing on those as well. You could also look at the Adcom, Acurus, Rotel, or Parasound 5 channel amps as another alternative. I'm a firm beliver in big amps. My M80Ti's are 4 ohm and the adcom puts out 200 watts @ 8ohms and 325 Watts at 4ohms. AWESOME!

Enjoy!

Rob
Rob



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#389864 - 02/19/13 03:28 PM Re: M80's and Optimum 4ohm Receivers [Re: Anonymous]
GregLee Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/12/03
Posts: 131
Loc: Waimanalo, HI
Originally Posted By: Anonymous
I would appreciate learning from present Axiom M80 owners which 4ohm rated receivers you are using to derive optimum sound from these really good speakers? Please be specific and state your reasons for choosing the A/V or stereo receiver you're using.

I'm using a Pioneer SC-1522-K (corresponding to model SC-1527-K in Canada and Elite model SC-65), which Pioneer rates at 210 W for each of its 9 channels, at 1 kHz, 4 ohms, 1% THD. This receiver is $1000 currently, from Amazon. Other 2012 models with Pioneer's "D3" amplifiers are also rated for 4 ohm speakers.

Most receivers, as we know, are not rated for 4 ohm operation. Perhaps with these new Pioneer receivers that are, the M80s will become more popular.
_________________________
Greg
VP180, M80s, M22s, QS8(4), CSW S305s, EP500, Pioneer SC-1522
M2i, M3(2), Pio vsx-1017

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#389866 - 02/19/13 03:55 PM Re: M80's and Optimum 4ohm Receivers [Re: Anonymous]
Boltron Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/18/11
Posts: 171
Loc: Toronto
I have a Denon 4311CI which when powering my M80s as Large would cut out on big bass transients. I now use a 3 ch ADA1000.
_________________________
For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert.

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#389867 - 02/19/13 04:47 PM Re: M80's and Optimum 4ohm Receivers [Re: Anonymous]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17809
Loc: NoVA
This wins for oldest thread resurrection.
_________________________
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#389872 - 02/19/13 07:26 PM Re: M80's and Optimum 4ohm Receivers [Re: Anonymous]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8305
Loc: Tacoma
Seriously, Greg. Why?!?!

M80's are already very "popular" and many posts over the last 12 years have been dedicated to the fallacy that they are somehow "difficult to drive" with modern receivers.
_________________________
bibere usque ad hilaritatem

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#389876 - 02/19/13 08:44 PM Re: M80's and Optimum 4ohm Receivers [Re: Anonymous]
GregLee Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/12/03
Posts: 131
Loc: Waimanalo, HI
I don't know why it is a fallacy to think that to drive a 4 ohm speaker, you need an amplifier specified for driving 4 ohm speakers. Of course, it could be wrong, but I don't see why its a "fallacy".

I've been using an Onkyo receiver TX-NR3008 for 2 years spec'd to deliver 140 watts into 8 ohms, and I've just changed to a Pioneer receiver SC-1522 spec'd to deliver 130 watts into 8 ohms. So I gave up a little power. But driving 3 4 ohm speakers, VP180, M80, M80, the Pioneer is sounding lots better to me.

Maybe it's relevant that the Pioneer has class D amps that are spec'd to drive 4 ohm speakers?
_________________________
Greg
VP180, M80s, M22s, QS8(4), CSW S305s, EP500, Pioneer SC-1522
M2i, M3(2), Pio vsx-1017

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#389879 - 02/19/13 09:29 PM Re: M80's and Optimum 4ohm Receivers [Re: tomtuttle]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10412
Yeah, at least we get a reminder of the naivete that was more common around here 12 years ago.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#389880 - 02/19/13 09:41 PM Re: M80's and Optimum 4ohm Receivers [Re: GregLee]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10412
Greg, any amplifier can drive a speaker rated at 4 ohms. The question would be how loud and how long until overheating shut down its protective circuits. For an amplifier to get an "official" rating at 4 ohms under the FTC amplifier regulations it would have to operate into a 4 ohm test load at the full rated power for at least 5 continuous minutes. This is unrealistic in the real world of home listening, of course, and amplifiers not being able to pass such a severe test without shutting down nevertheless have no problem with the M80s and other speakers carrying a 4 ohm rating.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#389881 - 02/19/13 09:42 PM Re: M80's and Optimum 4ohm Receivers [Re: Anonymous]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10400
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Not sure where you get that the PIONEER is rated to 4 ohms. B&O might rate their ice amps to 4 ohm but that is for their systems and power supplies, the SC is still only RATED to 6 ohms regardless of the use of ice amp modules. That's not to say that they won't drive a 4 ohm load as evidenced by your and many others use of the SC series.

D'oh! John beat me to it and much more informative as usual.


Edited by jakewash (02/19/13 09:43 PM)
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#389886 - 02/19/13 10:42 PM Re: M80's and Optimum 4ohm Receivers [Re: tomtuttle]
fredk Online   happy
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7236
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
Seriously, Greg. Why?!?!

Ran out of beer maybe?

Greg, if your pioneer sounds better, rock on. I have not had any issues with my Denon 2808 and when my daughter is over she keep telling me to turn it down. grin
_________________________
Fred

-------
Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#389887 - 02/19/13 10:54 PM Re: M80's and Optimum 4ohm Receivers [Re: Anonymous]
brwsaw Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/12/12
Posts: 1133
My year old Yammy and my new M80s didnt mix as well as expected but I really like the reciever. Both the Yammy forum guys and Axiom said I wouldn't have an issue but twice in a row 3 hours into a movie night I lost the second built in amp.
The wife seen the home theater drawing I tactfully stuck to the fridge door and agreed I should get an amp.
Life is good.
I think the 4 channel ADA1000 now shown online might be mine.


Edited by brwsaw (02/19/13 10:56 PM)
_________________________
5 weeks old today

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#389890 - 02/19/13 11:10 PM Re: M80's and Optimum 4ohm Receivers [Re: Anonymous]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10400
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Does seem a little odd for that series of Yamaha to have amp section cutting out, just the one set of speakers, the mains I presume?

Also wondering do you use any video upscaling in the avr when it is cutting out? I doubt you are as not many do, but those video chips have been known to create lots of heat when in use which will cause shutdowns.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#389891 - 02/19/13 11:48 PM Re: M80's and Optimum 4ohm Receivers [Re: jakewash]
GregLee Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/12/03
Posts: 131
Loc: Waimanalo, HI
Originally Posted By: jakewash
Not sure where you get that the PIONEER is rated to 4 ohms.

I got it from the specification in Pioneer's user manual, which you can check here. See page 119. I also checked my recollection of the Onkyo's spec before I posted. I'm not in the habit of making things up.
_________________________
Greg
VP180, M80s, M22s, QS8(4), CSW S305s, EP500, Pioneer SC-1522
M2i, M3(2), Pio vsx-1017

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#389892 - 02/20/13 12:41 AM Re: M80's and Optimum 4ohm Receivers [Re: jakewash]
brwsaw Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/12/12
Posts: 1133
Originally Posted By: jakewash
Does seem a little odd for that series of Yamaha to have amp section cutting out, just the one set of speakers, the mains I presume?

Also wondering do you use any video upscaling in the avr when it is cutting out? I doubt you are as not many do, but those video chips have been known to create lots of heat when in use which will cause shutdowns.


No upscaling.
Only front left.
Both times after watching a movie and about an hours worth of 2 channel listening after the wife went to bed.
The reciever showed no signs/codes/smell/heat just no audio from that speaker.
Since getting the amp I've watched many movies and never had a problem. Its odd but...
_________________________
5 weeks old today

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#389893 - 02/20/13 12:56 AM Re: M80's and Optimum 4ohm Receivers [Re: GregLee]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10412
Greg, I took the time to check p.119 and found that the FTC required ratings were 130 watts into 8 ohms and 170 watts into 6 ohms. The 4 ohm rating they show was not by the standards required by the FTC for all amplifiers sold in the U.S., and presumably it couldn't pass at 4 ohms, since that certainly would have been specified. The unit doesn't carry an official 4 ohm rating.

Not that the lack of such a rating is crucial in real world performance. The Onkyo 3010(the 3008 wasn't tested)tested here did about 257 watts into 4 ohms. The Onkyo and Pioneer receivers you're discussing have substantial and similar 4 ohm capability despite the lack of the 4 ohm rating. You appear to be paying far too much attention to speaker impedance ratings as they relate to amplifier requirements.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#389898 - 02/20/13 08:40 AM Re: M80's and Optimum 4ohm Receivers [Re: JohnK]
GregLee Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/12/03
Posts: 131
Loc: Waimanalo, HI
Originally Posted By: JohnK
The Onkyo and Pioneer receivers you're discussing have substantial and similar 4 ohm capability despite the lack of the 4 ohm rating.

I don't see how you arrive at that conclusion. As you say, the SC-1522 and Onkyo 3008 are neither given FTC ratings at 4 ohms, but Pioneer does give continuous power ratings for 9 channels at 4 ohms for the SC-1522 while Onkyo does not give such ratings for the 3008. That's a fact.
Quote:
You appear to be paying far too much attention to speaker impedance ratings as they relate to amplifier requirements.

Maybe the impedance ratings are unimportant, but that was the subject of discussion, wasn't it?
_________________________
Greg
VP180, M80s, M22s, QS8(4), CSW S305s, EP500, Pioneer SC-1522
M2i, M3(2), Pio vsx-1017

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#389900 - 02/20/13 09:59 AM Re: M80's and Optimum 4ohm Receivers [Re: Anonymous]
Murph Offline
axiomite

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 6884
Loc: PEI, Canada
Basing your argument on "ratings" is like saying how fast a new car can go based on the highest number on it's speedometer. Some cars will barely hit 75% of the speedometer total, others will bury the needle. All will get you where you're going at safe speeds.

I think the point folks are trying to make is generally...
For sure, some cars will perform safer at dangerously high speeds than others. However, most drivers (listeners) don't need to drive at dangerous speeds (dangerous listening levels) so thier non-sports car (most competently designed amps) will do fine for thier purposes.
_________________________
With great power comes Awesome irresponsibility.

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#389902 - 02/20/13 10:11 AM Re: M80's and Optimum 4ohm Receivers [Re: Anonymous]
CatBrat Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 5932
Loc: Milky Way Galaxy
I've run a Denon 3312ci, Pioneer SC-67, and an older low end Pioneer Elite model with the following speaker configurations in parallel. Currently it's the Pioneer SC-67.

Left Channel: 2 M22's 8 ohm each.
Right Channel: 2 M22's 8 ohm each.
Center Channel: 1 M22 at 8 ohm, 1 VP160 at 8 ohm.

Never had a problem. I'm not sure if an M80 would draw more or less current/wattage/whatever than my current configuration.

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#389904 - 02/20/13 10:52 AM Re: M80's and Optimum 4ohm Receivers [Re: Anonymous]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10966
Loc: Central NH
Oooooohhh, Murph made a car analogy.

Somewhere, a co-worker is warming their hands on the steam coming out of Ken's ears.
_________________________
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::

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#389906 - 02/20/13 11:47 AM Re: M80's and Optimum 4ohm Receivers [Re: Anonymous]
Murph Offline
axiomite

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 6884
Loc: PEI, Canada
Shhhh, you weren't supposed to reveal why I did it!!!
_________________________
With great power comes Awesome irresponsibility.

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#389907 - 02/20/13 11:48 AM Re: M80's and Optimum 4ohm Receivers [Re: Murph]
GregLee Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/12/03
Posts: 131
Loc: Waimanalo, HI
Originally Posted By: Murph
Basing your argument on "ratings" is like saying how fast a new car can go based on the highest number on it's speedometer.

I don't know what you think I'm arguing. Several years ago, I had considerable hesitation buying M80s when I could not find an affordable receiver which was rated to drive 4 ohm speakers. Maybe others had that problem, too? I said above, "Perhaps with these new Pioneer receivers that are [rated for 4 ohm operation], the M80s will become more popular." So, is this what you are contesting? You think that the audio press's mentions that the Pioneer's new D-class amps can drive 4 ohm speakers will not increase the popularity of 4 ohm speakers?
_________________________
Greg
VP180, M80s, M22s, QS8(4), CSW S305s, EP500, Pioneer SC-1522
M2i, M3(2), Pio vsx-1017

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#389909 - 02/20/13 12:43 PM Re: M80's and Optimum 4ohm Receivers [Re: Anonymous]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17809
Loc: NoVA
There's a ton of receivers that will happily drive 4 ohms. I've used H/K AVR525 and currently use an Onkyo 890. Didn't pay more than $600 for either of them.
_________________________
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#389910 - 02/20/13 01:58 PM Re: M80's and Optimum 4ohm Receivers [Re: Anonymous]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8305
Loc: Tacoma
Screw this "listening to music" and "watching movies" stuff; I'm going to go read Pioneer manuals and press releases for a hobby now.

Greg, I don't know what you're arguing, either. Everyone is absolutely delighted that you've had a great personal experience with the Pioneer receiver and your M80's. I like to hear happy stories. I think we can learn a lot from each other's experiences.

I just disagree with the premise that a current marketplace dearth of "receivers rated at 4 ohms" is a barrier to people buying M80's.

First, I don't necessarily agree that "most" receivers aren't rated at 4 ohms. I haven't done the research. I don't have the data. Second, I definitely don't think that particular rating matters. Virtually any big-name, mass market receiver is going to drive M80's (and nearly any other speaker) to unsafe volume levels in a normal-sized room. Third, I don't know how you could reasonably project that a significant number of prospective M80 owners share your preoccupation with that particular rating. Finally, at least some M80 buyers are going to already be committed to separate amplification rather than restricting themselves to using only a receiver.

So, I guess we're down to you saying "this 4 ohm rating really matters a lot" and several other folks saying "this 4 ohm rating thing really doesn't matter very much".

I do sincerely hope you enjoy your system. I'll bet it sounds really wonderful.
_________________________
bibere usque ad hilaritatem

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#389915 - 02/20/13 06:37 PM Re: M80's and Optimum 4ohm Receivers [Re: Anonymous]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13344
Loc: Iowa
I hooked up my 80's to an old Radio Shack Optimus stereo receiver I still have, sounded great.
_________________________
M80s-VP180-QS8s-EP600-2xEP350 Denon3808 Outlaw7700
M22-OWM22-VP100-Denon2805
Audio Nirvana

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#389917 - 02/20/13 07:15 PM Re: M80's and Optimum 4ohm Receivers [Re: Anonymous]
Socketman Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 1215
Loc: Whitehorse YT
The impedance curve is not the whole story of a speaker. The M80's are very efficient at 95db 1watt/1 metre and has only a few dips below 4 ohm,very easy to drive. Now look at a set of magnepans, they have almost a ruler flat 4 ohm impedance graph and 83db at 1 watt/1 meter now thats a tough load to drive. As stated most any modern amp will drive the M80's without trouble. If sustained ,extremely loud music were being played,then a person may want to add some active cooling to protect delicate electronics. My experience is that the bulk of the movies out there only require short bursts of power for action type scene's not sustained power for the whole movie. Also the bass requires the most power from the amp and most if not all of us use a powered sub to take the load off the main amp. I dont see 4 ohm being a requirement to own a set of M80's imho.


Edited by Socketman (02/20/13 07:16 PM)
_________________________
DOG is GOD spelled backwards.
I blame my terseness on my keyboard. smile

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#389919 - 02/20/13 09:22 PM Re: M80's and Optimum 4ohm Receivers [Re: GregLee]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10412
Greg, if you studied the independent lab report on the Onkyo which was linked and the similar reports there on the Pioneer units, you'd "see"(literally)the basis for the conclusion.

Of course, it was you who started this present "discussion" by resurrecting a 12-year old thread. Hence, the comment about your apparent excessive concern in this area.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#390031 - 02/23/13 12:12 PM Re: M80's and Optimum 4ohm Receivers [Re: Anonymous]
radtek2 Offline
old hand

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 78
Loc: Yelm, WA
Ahh, its nice to be back listening to you folks again, its been a while since my last visit.
I drive all my Axioms (front stage M80s and VP180) with a NAD T785HD and haven't ran into any issues at all. This is in a fairly large space and I can crank it to ear bleed levels...the NAD is more then capable.
_________________________
M80s VP180 QS8 SVS PC13 Ultra & 20-39PCi
NAD T785HD Oppo95
AntiMode8033
ADA 1500 Amp
Pio 151

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#390908 - 03/12/13 03:40 AM Re: M80's and Optimum 4ohm Receivers [Re: Anonymous]
PatCase Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 35
Loc: Guelph, Ontario
I use the m80s as two channel speakers and have them connected to two Quad 909s and a Quad 99 pre.

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#391629 - 04/02/13 07:12 PM Re: M80's and Optimum 4ohm Receivers [Re: Anonymous]
AdrianD Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/09/12
Posts: 85
Loc: Maple, Ontario
I've used two receivers to drive my M80s as a test; the crappy RCA (rated 8 ohm) one "died" in 10 minutes while the Yamaha (rated 6 ohm) "passed out" after 30 minutes or so. This was done at very loud levels with party music.
I had the M80's running at the same levels for a few hours on my 4 ohm rated Emotiva monoblocks without any issues whatsoever.
I guess it all depends what are looking for; for every day use most receivers should work.
_________________________
M80 v3, 2 x Emotiva UPA-1 Monoblocks, XPA-5, UMC-1 PrePro
Pro-Ject RPM Genie, Carver C2 Phono Preamp

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