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#339030 - 02/18/11 07:48 AM Re: How much power is needed to play M80s at reference [Re: Argon]
CatBrat Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 5871
Loc: Milky Way Galaxy
Bing, bing, bing! Ricochet Rabbit!

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#339033 - 02/18/11 07:59 AM Re: How much power is needed to play M80s at reference [Re: CatBrat]
Argon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/24/04
Posts: 1443
Loc: Oak Ridge, NC
Baba looey and Huckleberry Hound.
_________________________
"A fanatic is someone who can't change his mind and won't change the subject" Churchill

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#339041 - 02/18/11 09:48 AM Re: How much power is needed to play M80s at reference [Re: Argon]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6613
Loc: It's all about the location.
Anyone remember a (very) silly cartoon called "Batfink"?
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Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.

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#339043 - 02/18/11 09:52 AM Re: How much power is needed to play M80s at reference [Re: jakewash]
DanLW Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 07/30/10
Posts: 11
Originally Posted By: jakewash
The point at which you hit reference level would be dependant on the output voltage of the pre/pro and that voltage varies between manufacturers and even models within the same company.


Exactly. (and I know you're replying back to Solardadd at this point) It used to be, amplifiers went up to 10. Then, Spinal Tap found an amplifier that went up to 11, meaning that it was "one louder" than everything else. Not to be outdone, other amplifier companies made amps that went to 12...15...30, etc. Finally, some genius got the idea to create a standardized volume control scheme. So now we have amplifiers that go from 0 to -100 (or so) db. Ideally, any amplifier set to -20db will play at the same volume as any other amplifier at -20db. But this will not happen unless both amps are calibrated. Ideally, an amp's auto-calibration routine (if equipped) will set this for you. Or, you can get a SPL meter from Radio Shack, and some white noise recorded at 30db below reference, and adjust each channel for 75db at the listening position.

Yeah, for most people, that's way too involved. But if you're a geek like me who actually has fun running sweeps with Room EQ wizard, then knowing exactly what your system is outputting becomes relevent.

Quote:
DanLW, I may hive missed this, but why are you even trying to achieve 'peak reference level 105db'? I know movies are mixed for peaks to reach 105db but that is also with normal noise in the 85 db range which is actually quite loud and not many people listen at this level in a home theater. I believe I listen to movies with normal range around 75-80db with peak levels around 95-100db.


The reason I want the ability to go to reference is because I'm trying to put together the last speaker system I'll ever own. I don't want to be one of those people who spends $5000 every couple years on a new set of speakers. I want the peace of mind that knowing what I get is the best. Not the best in terms of quality (sure, you could spend >$100K on a pair of speakers with .00001%THD), but the best in that it sounds good, and is capable of playing well at levels put forth in an industry standard, and as such there is no need to get more. Once I get my speakers and amplifiers, I want to be done. No reason to upgrade, because I am there. Then all I have to do is worry about replacing bulb in my projector (though I'm hoping LED will be cheap enough by the time I'm ready to get a new projector).

I guess it's more for peace of mind than anything else. I don't want to always be wondering if my speakers would have sounded better if I got a 500W amp instead of a 200W amp.

Of course, once I retire, and am done moving, I might go ahead and augment my system with a DIY subsubwoofer to get me deep into single digit response... but hopefully by then Thigpen will be producing reasonably priced radial subs.

Yabadabadooo!

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#339115 - 02/18/11 03:13 PM Re: How much power is needed to play M80s at reference [Re: DanLW]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
I hear ya. It isn't so much as a need as a desire and only one chance to get it right the first time. This is how I am also.

Right now I am looking at the DIY amp from ClassD that SRoode put together or D-Sonic with a 500W 3 channel amp for the mains, as well as the usual suspects, Parasound, Rotel, Bryston etc.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#339124 - 02/18/11 03:58 PM Re: How much power is needed to play M80s at reference [Re: jakewash]
DanLW Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 07/30/10
Posts: 11
Originally Posted By: jakewash
I hear ya. It isn't so much as a need as a desire and only one chance to get it right the first time. This is how I am also.

Right now I am looking at the DIY amp from ClassD that SRoode put together or D-Sonic with a 500W 3 channel amp for the mains, as well as the usual suspects, Parasound, Rotel, Bryston etc.


Exactly. I've been actively researching for probably 8 years now, ever since I heard a pair of Klipsch RF-7s in a store, and how much better they sounded than any other speaker in the lineup. (of course, now I realize that may have been because they were playing louder, and the louder speaker almost always sounds better) Ever since then I realized that for serious home theater sound, I would have to look at towers. (all the towers sounded better than the bookshelves)

Now I am at a point in my life where I am almost out of debt. And it's amazing how much money one has to spend once they are out of debt! I intend to buy nothing on credit - It will all be purchased with cash in the bank. And so, like you said, I want to assure that I get it right the first time.

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#339159 - 02/19/11 05:31 AM Re: How much power is needed to play M80s at reference [Re: DanLW]
DanLW Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 07/30/10
Posts: 11
I've gotten lots of excellent info and stuff to think about from this thread. So I may as well let everybody know that my Brand X is a system centered around the Klipsch RF-7IIs. I know, horn loaded, bright, harsh... like I said, 8 years of searching. But the Klipsch defenders will say that while their lower end stuff which most people have heard can be described as such, their higher end stuff (RF83 line, and again, the RF7s) aren't like that. I have considered the Paradigm Studio 100 series, and considering that they cost as much as the Klipsch, and require the power of the Axioms, I have written them off my list. That, and I have read that the Studio 100s and M80s sound similar. Also, Paradigm seems to be focusing on pretty looks and astetics, and that makes me wonder what I'm really paying for. Briefly looked at AV123, but wasn't impressed. Was interested in SVS' new offering, but they have taken that off their page since it's release is nowhere in sight. Looked at RBH, but they don't have what I need at a price I am willing to pay. Axiom still stands as an excellent quality ID brand. And I am starting to realize that even the Klipsch system will require an XPA5/XPA2 (or equivalent amplification) since portions of their frequency response dip into the 2 ohm region, and therefore require a lot of current delivery capacity.

Now, I don't want to turn this into an M80 vs RF7 thread. I've read plenty of those, and have come to the conclusion that I will just have to hear them both for myself. However, I've encountered a setback. Did some research on shipping, and the M80s are too big to ship to an APO. The only way to get them to me is to have them shipped international, and that costs approx. $2017 for a pair of M80s after all is said and done. ($1674 base price + $268 VAT tax + $75 duty) I have E-mailed Axiom and was told that this is correct, and that Axiom does not accept VAT forms. (A VAT form is a form US Military personnel in Europe are able to use in order to not pay the 16% VAT tax)

The good news for Axiom is that even though Klipsch has dealers in Germany, they charge $3800 Euros ($5428) for a pair of RF-7IIs. If they accept a VAT form, that brings it down to $4559. But that's still $1361 over the US price of $3198... and even if I walked in with cash on hand, I doubt I'll get a 30% discount out of them.

So, looks like I'll just have to wait until I get back to the US in 3 1/2 years, and I'll just suffer with my Infinity Primus 150s...

Okay, here's an idea. what if I purchased a pair of M22s and a pair of RB-81 IIs. (Those ARE small enough to go to an APO.) Do you think that would be a fair comparison of the Axiom vs Klipsch sound, or would I be comparing apples and oranges if I compared those two in order to make a decision on which towers to buy? Originally, I had wanted to go with bipolars all around for 7.2 surround, but I suppose I could use monopoles for the back channels. Or, I could use them for the "presence" speakers. Hmmmmmmmmm....

Sorry that my posts are so long! It's kinda my way of thinking out loud. I actually figure a lot of stuff out in the course of typing these posts of epic proportions!

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#339173 - 02/19/11 11:19 AM Re: How much power is needed to play M80s at reference [Re: DanLW]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17781
Loc: NoVA
I don't know anything about the Klipsch lineup, but the M22s would be a good representation of the Axiom sound (almost the canonical representation!)
_________________________
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

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#339185 - 02/19/11 01:26 PM Re: How much power is needed to play M80s at reference [Re: Ken.C]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10398
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
The M22's are VERY representative of the Axiom sound as all of them use the 5.25" for midrange playback and share very similar SQ.
_________________________
Jason
-----------------
TTTHHHPPPPPTTTT!

My HT

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#339194 - 02/19/11 02:35 PM Re: How much power is needed to play M80s at reference [Re: jakewash]
bdpf Offline
aficionado

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 769
Loc: Toronto, Canada
The only Klipsch that I heard were the RF82 and RF62 and also the horns didn't bother me, I thought they lacked in the midrange area. I haven't heard the RF7s.
It looks like you are over analyzing everything. No matter how much you read, it will be no substitute for hearing the speakers. I know that it might be difficult in your case but as others have said, the M22s and even the M2s will be representative of the Axiom sound and as for Klipsch, you might be able to listen to them at the dealer. Good luck.
_________________________
Bruno
M80s/VP180/QS8s/EP600/AVR-890
------------------------------------
"The problem is choice..."

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