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#372823 - 04/10/12 10:32 PM Re: Just the Two of Them [Re: 2x6spds]
dakkon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 1806
Originally Posted By: 2x6spds
Thank you, Jack.

And ... Obama has attempted to destroy the greatest health care system in the world,



This is not a true statement... The U.S. spends the most in the world on health care, and by far does not have the best results from the money spent... I am working on a masters in public policy, and have done a considerable amount of studying/reading on this specific topic..

Your statement is simply just not true, we do/did not have the best health care system in the world. We had one which, if you had a wonderful health care policy, or were rich you were/are set. However, if you happend to be poor.. well you were shit out of luck especially if you had/have a chronic medical problem... There was one book that i read (i am sorry i do not remember the title or author, if i remember i will get it for you), in it there was a young woman 30 years old, who had lupus disease... She had a Bachelors degree and worked part time for a hospital... Long story short.. She died because she could not get treatment for her desease... How on earth would this happen if we have/had the "greatest health care system in the world"???

Now, granted.. i am going to assume that i have done much more reading/writing on this specific topic than yourself, so please do not take this personal... There are hundreds of examples such as the one above that proves my point....

If you would like to read about our "greatest health care system in the world" please read this book below

This is Paul Starr's dissertation...

http://www.amazon.com/The-Social-Transfo...1180&sr=8-2

Here is another good book, MUCH shorter than the Starr book, this book directly compares the U.S. health care system to others by first hand accounts.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Healing-Americ...1241&sr=1-1


It seems like you have a very decided opinion about Obama.. Which is fine, i am glad you have an opinion, but if you are going to make specific accusations, please do some reading to be able to defend your position.

If you have examples that are counter to mine, i would be more than happy to see them.

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#372827 - 04/10/12 10:42 PM Re: Just the Two of Them [Re: 2x6spds]
dakkon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 1806
Originally Posted By: 2x6spds
Let's take a look at Obama's tax policies, especially his "Buffett Rule." The intent is not to reduce the deficit but to establish "fairness."


Just for good measure, i agree with this post to a certain degree. My undergraduate degree is in economics. the top 50% of the population supports the entire tax base. The bottom 50% of the population pay's 0 tax, they get all of their money back when they file for a refund.... IF 100% of the population helped to support the public goods that we all consume, then our federal budget would be in a much better place than it currently is....

I do not necessarily agree with the "Buffet" rule myself; but possibly for different reasons... Fundamentally, i think that everyone should pay at least something to help pay for the public goods that that are being consumed.

One prime example of public goods that EVERYONE consumes, would be the roads in the U.S. The infrastructure in the U.S. has received a D grade for the last 10 years, due to the poor maintenance habits that we have engaged in for a long time now.

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#372828 - 04/10/12 10:50 PM Re: Just the Two of Them [Re: BobKay]
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
I am not familiar with Starr's book, the Social Transformation of American Medicine. Social Transformation ... that's the problem. We have a capitalistic system. Free enterprise. Free.

I am not aware of anyone who has died because they have been denied medical care in this country. Most Americans have health care. After 65 we have Medicare. Those without have Medicaid. Obama has taken a HALF TRILLION DOLLARS from the Medicare system and transferred it to Medicaid. He has gutted Medicare.

The solution to the problem of uninsured American citizens is not to destroy our health care system. Certainly, as Obama's policies stabilize the real unemployment rate at about 17% (U6), more and more workers will lose their health insurance.

The failure of Obama's economic policies are the great driver for Obamacare. One failure will lead to another.

There is a lot of waste in our system. Doctors practice liability protective medicine, ordering every test to avoid legal liability in the event of a lawsuit. Having litigated such suits, I know the truth of this. However, contrary to what Obama has told us, doctors do not perform unnecessary amputations just to make a dime.

If you socialize health care, you have socialized the economy at the cost of liberty. Ultimately, you'd end up with a health care system which operates with all the grace and efficiency of any governmental agency, that is to say, a lousy health care system for all, and a loss of our liberty.
_________________________
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#372829 - 04/10/12 10:54 PM Re: Just the Two of Them [Re: MarkSJohnson]
BobKay Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/23/10
Posts: 2964
Loc: Massachusetts Badlands
Originally Posted By: MarkSJohnson
Bob- You and I are friends. Really. I LIKE you....I really do. But you started a political thread and now I'm just angry.



I'm sorry, Mark. I was bored and I knew it'd give me lots of reading material by day's end.

Really, it's Pavlovian here. No, it's more like a train schedule, not that predicatability is always a bad thing.

It takes so much effort to get something constructive going. Sometimes it's easier to pull the fire alarm and run away than it is to actually nurture a conflagration.

You know that house on the next street from where you grew up? Ya, the brown two-story with the nasty and crazy yard dog. Admit it! Sometimes you did run a stick along the chain link fence. I'm guilty, but I can't promise that I'll reform without the proper rehabilitation.

Next thought: a single world religion, or else?

Sorry, sorry.
_________________________
If I didn't have a shrink, all of my friends would think there's something wrong with me.

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#372834 - 04/10/12 11:25 PM Re: Just the Two of Them [Re: 2x6spds]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16221
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
edit: nah. I'm not doing it.


Edited by pmbuko (04/10/12 11:31 PM)

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#372839 - 04/11/12 12:07 AM Re: Just the Two of Them [Re: pmbuko]
Ajax Online   content
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6212
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Yeah. Actually, surprisingly easy to ignore something that egregiously over the top. I think he left the tsunami and subsequent Japanese nuclear plant meltdown off the list. grin
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#372841 - 04/11/12 12:34 AM Re: Just the Two of Them [Re: Ajax]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16221
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
Please, unenlightened ones, gather around and lend an ear while I share my deeply-researched wisdom with you. I will hit you with a wall of text so overwhelming that your brain will cower in its presence!
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#372847 - 04/11/12 01:16 AM Re: Just the Two of Them [Re: BobKay]
dakkon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 1806
Originally Posted By: 2x6spds
I am not familiar with Starr's book, the Social Transformation of American Medicine. Social Transformation ... that's the problem. We have a capitalistic system. Free enterprise. Free.


I'm sorry 2x6spds, but have you heard the expression.. Don't judge a book by its cover...... (i had to, i'm sure you will understand)

Originally Posted By: 2x6spds

I am not aware of anyone who has died because they have been denied medical care in this country. Most Americans have health care. After 65 we have Medicare. Those without have Medicaid. Obama has taken a HALF TRILLION DOLLARS from the Medicare system and transferred it to Medicaid. He has gutted Medicare.


Have you ever looked at the requirements to get medicaid? Not everyone that is "poor" qualifies.. In my earlier example the young lady was working, and made to much money to qualify for medicaid. In Texas (where i live) medicaid worded to pretty much only cover single mothers that are unemployed. If your a single male, there is pretty much no way you could get medicaid regardless of income...

Originally Posted By: 2x6spds

The solution to the problem of uninsured American citizens is not to destroy our health care system. Certainly, as Obama's policies stabilize the real unemployment rate at about 17% (U6), more and more workers will lose their health insurance.


In the T.R Reid book, Reid actually does a decent job at explaining other health care structures.. The one that i think works the best is the bismarck model. The reasoning behind this model is to keep the general population happy, it was not hatched though the alturism of Otto von Bismarck...

http://healthmatters4.blogspot.com/2011/01/bismarck-model.html

And, yes it does bug the heck out of me that the news media only reports the U3 number... Even at though, most of the commentators have no idea what is driving the U3 number....

Originally Posted By: 2x6spds

There is a lot of waste in our system. Doctors practice liability protective medicine, ordering every test to avoid legal liability in the event of a lawsuit. Having litigated such suits, I know the truth of this. However, contrary to what Obama has told us, doctors do not perform unnecessary amputations just to make a dime.


Starr's book does a good job at explaining how this came to fruition. Reid's book discusses how other models handle this, and why other countries do not have the financial inefficiencies that the U.S. has.


Originally Posted By: 2x6spds

If you socialize health care, you have socialized the economy at the cost of liberty. Ultimately, you'd end up with a health care system which operates with all the grace and efficiency of any governmental agency, that is to say, a lousy health care system for all, and a loss of our liberty.


This is not true, look at Germany, france, Switzerland, Japan, Thailand.... They all use a form of the Bismarck model.. Under the bismarck model, people still have a choice as to who they get health insurance from. By law, all health insurance companies are nonprofit organizations.. i think you should get the T. R. Reid book. I think you would enjoy the read.


I am not saying that Obama care is the best solution for us. Personally i would have liked to have seen the U.S. adopt the Bismarck model... But there would be so much propaganda about it being a socialist system... I feel that you are writing more from opinions than facts. Which is ok, but please keep an open mind to different options.


P.S. i am not a huge fan of politics talk outside of school, because it can go down hill very quickly.

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#372849 - 04/11/12 01:29 AM Re: Just the Two of Them [Re: dakkon]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16221
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
You're doing a great job lifting this thread from a bash-fest [sleep] into something that's educational, dakkon. (Well, potentially educational. We can choose to read your book suggestions or continue believing what we already believe….)

Thanks for your refreshing civil tone and your willingness to share your knowledge with those us brave enough to open this thread. smile
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#372850 - 04/11/12 01:32 AM Re: Just the Two of Them [Re: BobKay]
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
The European model is basically eating itself. You cannot continue to spend more than you bring in without collapsing the system. When you have more people on the cart than are pulling the cart, at some point, the system will break down. Look at Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece, the canaries ...

The NHS works great in UK, if you want to die from thirst, unattended, surrounded by union employees who really care a lot. Hip replacement, no, you're too old. Expensive chemotherapy, the numbers just don't pencil out for you citizen.

The Euro socialist countries are not free. They are ruled by unelected bureaucrats. They do not have freedom of speech, they have been Shariaized ... freedom of speech means freedom from being offended by someone's speech. That is the opposite of how we figure it. Of course the Ezra Levant fiasco shows that you have some bureaucrats with totalitarian inclinations up in the frozen north.

I like Harper though.
_________________________
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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