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#372851 - 04/11/12 01:48 AM Re: Just the Two of Them [Re: BobKay]
dakkon Online   content
connoisseur

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 1846
Originally Posted By: 2x6spds
The European model is basically eating itself. You cannot continue to spend more than you bring in without collapsing the system. When you have more people on the cart than are pulling the cart, at some point, the system will break down. Look at Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece, the canaries ...


There are more social issues going on than just the health care, i am limiting my replies to health care.. Not to other social issues that are burdoning these economies (that is an entirely different discussion)... I agree when you are spending more than you are taking in, you are in trouble... BTW the U.S. is doing this... our dept is more than our GDP....

pmbuko, i am a HORRIBLE teacher.... However, i do like shooting the breeze wink , if you happen to learn something along the way.. well it's not my fault crazy

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#372852 - 04/11/12 02:00 AM Re: Just the Two of Them [Re: BobKay]
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
Well said dakkon. Yes, there are other issues, and we share them. We're a bit luckier. We have approximately 20 million (at least) illegal alien residents from Latin America. Europe threw its doors open to North African and Middle Eastern immigrants. They sure loaded the cart. Heavy on the dole, heavy on the health care, heavy on the multiple wives, heavy on the hate, light on the work. Brilliant.

Sort of skews the model. Those technocrats who think they know it all, and can predict the future forget that predictions are difficult, especially when they're about the future.
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#372884 - 04/11/12 11:47 AM Re: Just the Two of Them [Re: 2x6spds]
dakkon Online   content
connoisseur

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 1846
Originally Posted By: 2x6spds
We have approximately 20 million (at least) illegal alien residents from Latin America. Europe threw its doors open to North African and Middle Eastern immigrants.


If you look at Europe's population growth rate, you will understand why they are immigrant friendly now... again, there are other matters at play here, and it is not as simple as it may appear at first glance.

Many of the illegal immigrants that we have in the U.S. are more than happy to do the jobs that WE dont want to do (there have been many academic studies that have proven that crime is a very small portion of the immigration issue, most people just want to be able to provide for their families). Would you or anyone in your family be willing to go pick lettuce for 12 hours a day, for a labor rate at or below minimum wage? I don't think i would, nor would anyone in my family... Conversely, would you be willing to pay 20$ for a head of lettuce, it would cost at WHOLE lot more if farmers had to pay labor rates that Americans would want to do the job. The cost you pay at the store, in most cases is a direct function of labor rates... Popular media has demonized immigrants of all kinds... Do you remember last summer when GA and Alabama "got tough on immigration"... Do you remember the fruit and vegetables in the farmers fields rotted last summer because no American wanted to go pick the food for the wage that the immigrants were willing to do the job? 9 times out of 10, the south american/mexican immigrant is not taking a job "away" from an american, they are willing to do a job that an american is not willing to do....

This topic is actually quite interesting from a cultural/sociological point of view... Today in America, we don't want immigrants, but we also don't want to do the jobs for as little compensation as the immigrants are willing to do them, but... We still want all of our products to be super cheap...

The rational player will see the fallacy in this though process....

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#372886 - 04/11/12 11:58 AM Re: Just the Two of Them [Re: BobKay]
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
You are correct. The average Euro birth rate is about 1.6. They will lose population. What that means to a socialist economy, is no new workers to support the lavish retirements of the previous generation and universal health care for all. According to B'at Yeor, the Euro elites decided the solution was to open immigration from North Africa. Those were supposed to be the workers who would support the aging Europeans population. It is not working out.

Our immigration policy is complex and de facto. Yes, we have jobs that our own population will not take. On the other hand, illegal workers depress wages, burden services, especially medical services. Southern California used to have the best hospital system in the world. Multiple trauma centers, helicopter ambulances. No longer. Now we see Emergency Rooms full of children of illegal aliens with runny noses. Our prison system is heavily burdened by illegal aliens as is our school system and every other social service.

Why is it that there is a sector of American society who would rather collect welfare than work menial jobs?

When you say we don't want immigrants, I don't think that is accurate. I understand why people would want to flee from the economic hardship of central American countries. But by entering the country illegally, they cut ahead of those who go through the lawful immigration process.

While our immigration laws are complex and require rationalization, the solution is not to ignore our borders, or the privileges and immunities which follow from citizenship rather than illegal residence.

Like any sovereign nation, we are entitled to borders.

By the way, let's just ignore exaggerations like $20 head lettuce prices. We had a Bracero program in the 50s and 60s. There are solutions which do not result in the US becoming the social service sump for all of Central America.
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#372888 - 04/11/12 12:16 PM Re: Just the Two of Them [Re: 2x6spds]
dakkon Online   content
connoisseur

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 1846
Originally Posted By: 2x6spds

By the way, let's just ignore exaggerations like $20 head lettuce prices. We had a Bracero program in the 50s and 60s. There are solutions which do not result in the US becoming the social service sump for all of Central America.


The 20$ may or may not be an exaggeration.. There is no counter factual to disprove this number..


So, how about that Romney.... He's sooo in touch with my middle class life style.. paying bills, buying my own groceries, not owning multiple homes. having to be concerned with my finances as to how i will retire....

Neither candidate is my "favoriate" both have things about them that i do not agree with... The whole selendera thing did not settle well with me at all, that was a Very poorly written contract in my opinion. I fail to understand why the tax payers would not get their money back first, or why the contract would be written in such a manner that they did not... This seems like a pretty big mistake to me.

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#372898 - 04/11/12 12:44 PM Re: Just the Two of Them [Re: BobKay]
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
By that logic, we should worry about $100 a head lettuce. In the meantime, our national debt is totally out of control. Though the Obama administration denies it, inflation is here and coming on strong.

As to a president, I don't need someone to sympathize for me. I want someone who adheres to the Constitutional limits of government and institutes policies of growth.

I don't want a government to take care of me. i want a government which will get out of the way of wealth creation and not engage in moronic investments in 'green energy.'
_________________________
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#372900 - 04/11/12 12:52 PM Re: Just the Two of Them [Re: 2x6spds]
dakkon Online   content
connoisseur

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 1846
Originally Posted By: 2x6spds

In the meantime, our national debt is totally out of control.

i agree with this...


Originally Posted By: 2x6spds

not engage in moronic investments in 'green energy.'


But, the baby seals????

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#372901 - 04/11/12 12:55 PM Re: Just the Two of Them [Re: BobKay]
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
I love the baby seals too, and those nasty penguins as well


Edited by 2x6spds (04/11/12 12:56 PM)
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#372929 - 04/11/12 04:05 PM Re: Just the Two of Them [Re: BobKay]
nickbuol Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4455
Loc: Marion, IA
So much posting (mainly between 2 of us), but just a comment about the heathcare in the US. Yes, I've worked in the healthcare and medical industry, and yes, I have read about world wide healthcare options even as recently as 1 month ago...

One of the biggest issues with the healthcare system and healthcare costs has to do with the "freedoms" that are allowed in this country, and what people have come to feel "entitled" to or see the opportunity to "scam" someone else out of. By that I am getting at how much easier someone can turn their financial situation around by suing someone else. Legal fees alone. In 2008 (I couldn't pull last year's numbers easily), $55.6 Billion was spent on medial malpractice lawsuits and defense medicine. Those costs get spread out among everyone paying for medical services. Trust me, this is huge. I've worked for both the medical providers as well as the health care administrators (insurance companies) and you hear about how 1 lawsuit alone can send things into a state of panic, even for larger providers.

Throw into that mix the number of uninsured people in the US at 50.7 Million People as of September 2010 and how many of those people are effectively getting "free" (cost passed on to others) healthcare. It is no wonder that there is a push for a new healthcare program. I don't agree with the "plan" of the current law trying to be forced into place, but lets look at where to costs are.

We can keep following this trail back to unemployed people, increasing costs for consumables (food, gas, housing, etc) and more lower income families can't afford it, plus the estimated 11.2 Million illegal immigrants, 8 Million of which are also working here illegally (mot paying taxes, or for healthcare) thus increasing both the healthcare problem, but also the general taxation problem. I know that I would love to get paid cash and not pay taxes.

Anyway, I just wanted to offer some perspective to the healthcare cost issue. As for Obama's healthcare plan, I am all for helping out others, but when you have so many people here that aren't contributing to the payment or reduction of payment of things like taxes and healthcare because they are here illegally (when did people forget what "illegal" meant?) it makes it that much more expensive for those people that are trying to do things on the up and up, or were hit by the economic crash that started a couple of years ago. The problem is one political group thinks that these illegal people should be allowed to vote (representation WITHOUT taxation) and does whatever they can to make sure that they get as many of those 11.2 million votes that they can.

How about focusing on those of us that actually help to pay for the government. Oh wait, my voice is lost by the "special interest groups" that throw millions of dollars into politicians coffers... Ugh. Maybe I should move to France. I would still hate the government, the people could care less about me, but at least I could travel to other countries easier than I can travel to some other states.
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#372933 - 04/11/12 04:22 PM Re: Just the Two of Them [Re: nickbuol]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16273
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
Originally Posted By: nickbuol
Maybe I should move to France. I would still hate the government, the people could care less about me, but at least I could travel to other countries easier than I can travel to some other states.

You face barriers, other than distance, traveling to other states? Wha?
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