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#374934 - 05/02/12 06:18 PM Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation
Ian Offline
President
aficionado

Registered: 03/13/01
Posts: 772
I mentioned last month that we were pretty close on the new amplifiers and now it is time to introduce some details for everyone here. There will be three series of amplifiers available in 2 through 8 channels each. We have been calling these amp series the 1000, the 1250, and the 1500 around the lab as that represents the maximum output at the speaker output of each with all channels driven as established by their respective power supplies after all efficiency losses. No doubt you can expect a naming contest on these from Amie shortly.

First and foremost I would like to thank Andrew, our resident master of all things audio. These new amps are his brainchild and represent the culmination of over 2 years of work by Andrew on the designs. I cannot say enough about how impressed I and the whole Axiom team are with the results of his work on these projects. They are spectacular. But it goes far beyond the new amplifiers; Andrew’s on-going work on all the products at Axiom has been amazing and we’re so fortunate to have him with us. Improvements driven by Andrew are having a positive influence on our entire line-up of products. The innovation he is driving has added so much excitement and energy to both our products and the people working on them, and I’d like to thank him very much for his contributions. We are all looking forward to an exciting future with lots of both great new products and great improvements to our existing ones, with Andrew driving forward what we can accomplish.

These amps will be ready for shipping on July 20 though we will have a few available earlier for anyone who has purchased LFR1100s. They all come in the same chassis. It is a really heavy duty chassis made from 2mm steel with a 9mm aluminum face panel. The height is 3U for all of them. All these new amplifiers are Class-D amplification with massive analog power supplies and they are all north of 90% efficient at full power. This efficiency is an important benefit to our amps. A typical Class-AB design is around 50% efficient which means that ½ of the output from the transformer is wasted off in heat which is quite limiting to your overall output with all channels driven (given a single power cord on a regular 15amp circuit). The maximum you can extract from a typical wall plug is 1800 watts. Given a reasonably efficient and absolutely massive power supply you can end up with somewhere around 1650 watts available to the amplifiers. So at north of 90% efficiency you can easily achieve 1500 watts of total output (hence our 1500 series lab name). But at 50% efficiency you are limited to around 825 watts. That is a massive difference in a multi-channel amplifier. Below is a little chart that shows how the output power works for each of our amplifier series:



When considering what power is right for you it is important to keep in mind that in a typical home theatre system the power demands from the surround channels are much less than the front three so you will tend to have more power available where you need in the real world. A 7-channel amp utilized in a home theatre system will tend to act more like the 5-channel for power per channel as shown in the above chart.

As for the inputs available, the 1000 Series is RCA only. Both the 1250 Series and the 1500 Series have both RCA inputs and fully balanced XLR inputs. All the amplifiers can be powered with 100 volts, 120 volts, or 240 volts depending on what is available in your country. This is easily selectable inside the chassis but we will pre-set it at the factory for the country it is being shipped to.

As for the pricing I have created another chart below which shows the price of each model in its respective number of channels. We will also be doing a 2-tiered pre-order deal similar to what we did with the LFR1100.


_________________________
Ian Colquhoun
President & Chief Engineer

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#374935 - 05/02/12 06:49 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8133
Loc: Tacoma
Very exciting! Well done, congratulations and best wishes.
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#374940 - 05/02/12 07:42 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: tomtuttle]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10675
Loc: Central NH
Everything Tom said!

Ian, is the styling of the amps similar to the styling of the DSP boxes?
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#374960 - 05/02/12 10:06 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17696
Loc: NoVA
Nice! Congrats on the new amps. Hope they work out well.
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#374965 - 05/03/12 12:05 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16224
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
Sounds like you guys really hooked a big one with Andrew. And he likes beer, too!

He's, like, the perfect engineer. smile
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#374967 - 05/03/12 12:27 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11058
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
Looking good. I can't wait to get one into my system along with the LFR1100s.
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#374968 - 05/03/12 12:44 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
dakkon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 1806
Originally Posted By: Ian
All these new amplifiers are Class-D amplification with massive analog power supplies and they are all north of 90% efficient at full power. This efficiency is an important benefit to our amps. A typical Class-AB design is around 50% efficient which means that ½ of the output from the transformer is wasted off in heat which is quite limiting to your overall output with all channels driven (given a single power cord on a regular 15amp circuit). The maximum you can extract from a typical wall plug is 1800 watts. Given a reasonably efficient and absolutely massive power supply you can end up with somewhere around 1650 watts available to the amplifiers. So at north of 90% efficiency you can easily achieve 1500 watts of total output (hence our 1500 series lab name). But at 50% efficiency you are limited to around 825 watts. That is a massive difference in a multi-channel amplifier. Below is a little chart that shows how the output power works for each of our amplifier series:


Ian, or Andrew, what is the rating of the power supply?

I also find it interesting that the rating for a typical wall outlet was included; this is something that i think often gets over looked.. With the 1500, would the recommendation be to have a dedicated breaker on the outlet that the 1500 would be plugged into? It might be prudent in older houses, where there are more outlets on fewer breakers..

Good luck with the new line of amps!

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#375021 - 05/03/12 12:18 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
Murph Offline
axiomite

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 6614
Loc: PEI, Canada
Exiting stuff. Congrats on the new product!
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#375036 - 05/03/12 01:24 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6557
Loc: It's all about the location.
Congratulations Ian and Andrew on the new amps!

It's interesting how the outputs on 4ohm vs 8ohm average down to the same numbers as more and more channels are added.
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#375039 - 05/03/12 01:32 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
ClubNeon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3442
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
I'm guessing the per channel power it limited by the output device, which can flow nearly twice as much into half the load. But the total power output of all channels is limited by the power supply.
_________________________
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#375093 - 05/04/12 03:43 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11058
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
Just curious, but were these designs completely fresh from Andrew Welker, or is at least a little of Tom Cumberland's work on the A1400-8 and A1400-2 informing the design of these new amp series?
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#375108 - 05/04/12 08:46 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: CV]
alan Offline
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Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 3178
Loc: Toronto/New York/Dwight
CV, I doubt there's anything left of Tom Cumberland's designs in the new amplifier series. But Andrew is better qualified to answer that.

Cheers,
Alan
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#375110 - 05/04/12 09:23 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
Henry66 Offline
local

Registered: 07/05/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New Hampshire, USA
In the interest of cost-savings, would it be feasible to buy a 3-channel model for FL,C,FR and let my receiver drive the surrounds? Or would this result in a channel volume level mismatch at high volumes where the receiver's power ratings can't keep up with the Axiom?
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#375126 - 05/04/12 11:54 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8133
Loc: Tacoma
Henry, the way I read Ian's chart is that Axiom will configure each amp with anywhere from 2 to 8 channels based on consumer preference. I don't think there would be any problem doing what you envision; your receiver would be able to adjust the levels accordingly.
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#375144 - 05/04/12 12:55 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: CV]
Andrew Offline
Axiom Engineer
veteran

Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 164
From a basic technology standpoint, the building blocks of the amplifiers (Class D amplifiers strapped to a high current linear power supply) remain true to the earlier design. However, all of the individual elements are ground up designs, and this includes the way the amplifiers are assembled. Technology races on and there are new and far more sophisticated devices available today that were unheard of 6 years ago, and these are incorporated into all of the new amplifiers.

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#375145 - 05/04/12 01:29 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Henry66]
Ian Offline
President
aficionado

Registered: 03/13/01
Posts: 772
Henry66,

This is a really good idea. Not only do you end up with some real power where you need it across all the front channels, you will now be designating the entire power supply of your receiver to the surround channels. This will give them added power also since almost always the limiting factor in a receiver is not the power per channel but the overall power available as determined by the power supply.
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President & Chief Engineer

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#375148 - 05/04/12 02:02 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
SirQuack Offline
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Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13311
Loc: Iowa
Henry, many people do what your asking, should not be a problem as long as you calibrate all the speakers initially via SPL meter or other setup routine.

Does this design reroute unused power to the other channels needing the power, like Tom's design, that was a nice feature?
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#375150 - 05/04/12 02:43 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Andrew]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11058
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
Thanks for the response, Andrew. Maybe you can go into further detail as the release approaches?

And I was wondering the same thing, Randy.
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#375151 - 05/04/12 03:17 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: CV]
Ian Offline
President
aficionado

Registered: 03/13/01
Posts: 772
CV and Randy,

Yes it does work the same in that way.
_________________________
Ian Colquhoun
President & Chief Engineer

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#375174 - 05/04/12 06:06 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10675
Loc: Central NH
It's great to see these questions answered on the forum!

I have another:

JP, can I borrow $2.000 and have a REALLY flexible payback plan?
_________________________
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::

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#375186 - 05/04/12 11:33 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11058
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
Originally Posted By: Ian
CV and Randy,

Yes it does work the same in that way.


Thanks, Ian!
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#375201 - 05/05/12 01:53 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10394
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
My wife is going to divorce me............
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#375213 - 05/05/12 06:48 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
wschwartz Offline
buff

Registered: 12/29/02
Posts: 56
Do all of the models have a subwoofer output in addition to the number of specified channels?

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#375215 - 05/05/12 07:47 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10675
Loc: Central NH
I would think the sub output would only be found on the preamp stage.
_________________________
::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::

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#375267 - 05/05/12 08:04 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
Da_Gimp_Pimp Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 3972
Loc: Sitting down somewhere
Felicitations on the new amps!

Andrew, I currently have a 3808. How much better will these amps sound grin ?

Oh, and will it sound better than my multicoloured tube amp? I can't tell a difference between my tube amp and my 3808 (unless I'm looking at the pretty colours), so I'm looking to add a little "colour" to my speakers using a modest looking amp.

Speaking of tube amps, my friend who's totally def really likes mine. He claims he can hear a difference. I'm confused, but I'm not questioning him. Not because I don't want to, but because I can't do sign because I can't move my fingers.

Our communication is very arduous and frustrating. He writes down what he thinks I'm going to say or ask, and upon eventually getting it right, he responds. Needless to say, he hasn't been over in a while. I tried calling him the other day to touch base, but after the phone rang a couple times, I couldn't hear anything. I'm going to stop at his place tomorrow to see how he's doing. His apartment complex has stairs, but thankfully I can reach the button to buzz his apartment.
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#375270 - 05/05/12 09:14 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
Lampshade Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 11/08/05
Posts: 1140
Loc: Holbrook, MA
Power,
I missed when you got a tube amp, please enlighten me with the details.
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M3 and Manley Stingray
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#375271 - 05/05/12 09:44 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
cohesion Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/27/12
Posts: 159
Loc: Maple, Ontario, Canada
Hi Ian,

Thanks to you and Andrew for all the innovation lately! Could you perhaps take a good long summer vacation to give my bank account time to recover though?

Seriously, this does seem like a good option to power my LFRs. Will you be able to publish further specifications or measurements such as THD before the preorder window is over?

Thanks,

Mike

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#375273 - 05/05/12 10:34 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
cohesion Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/27/12
Posts: 159
Loc: Maple, Ontario, Canada
OK while we all wait for the official 'name the new amps' contest, how about an entirely unofficial contest to come up with the best 'unofficial' name for your favorite Axiom product. Who knows, maybe some will be used in the fine print of the upcoming product brochures?

Here is my first submission: LFR - Limited Funds Remaining.

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#375324 - 05/06/12 12:33 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Lampshade]
Da_Gimp_Pimp Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 3972
Loc: Sitting down somewhere
Originally Posted By: Lampshade
Power,
I missed when you got a tube amp, please enlighten me with the details.


I was just being goofy, dude.

As I've mentioned numerous times, I thought my RPA-1 sounded better than my 3801. But, being the realist that I am, my shear excitement of setting up a new separate amp could've caused this perceived improvement in sound; I'll never know.

We all try to justify superfluous purchases....
_________________________
I dream of finding a really hot girlfriend that's mute!

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#375326 - 05/06/12 12:42 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
Lampshade Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 11/08/05
Posts: 1140
Loc: Holbrook, MA
I thought you might be smile
_________________________
M3 and Manley Stingray
M80 and Pioneer SC 55

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#375343 - 05/06/12 03:53 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Da_Gimp_Pimp]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 6960
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Powertothepeople
We all try to justify superfluous purchases....

No SWMBO no TWMBJ. I just check my bank account.
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-------
Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#375348 - 05/06/12 05:40 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: fredk]
Da_Gimp_Pimp Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 3972
Loc: Sitting down somewhere
Originally Posted By: fredk
Originally Posted By: Powertothepeople
We all try to justify superfluous purchases....

No SWMBO no TWMBJ. I just check my bank account.


laugh
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I dream of finding a really hot girlfriend that's mute!

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#375412 - 05/07/12 01:40 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Da_Gimp_Pimp]
Murph Offline
axiomite

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 6614
Loc: PEI, Canada
Originally Posted By: Powertothepeople

Speaking of tube amps, my friend who's totally def really likes mine. He claims he can hear a difference. I'm confused, but I'm not questioning him. Not because I don't want to, but because I can't do sign because I can't move my fingers.


"Why, I can hardly hear it! You'd have to be deaf to hear that."
--Murray, Flight of the Concords--
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#375418 - 05/07/12 03:38 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: SirQuack]
Nick B Offline
devotee

Registered: 08/05/06
Posts: 490
Originally Posted By: SirQuack

Does this design reroute unused power to the other channels needing the power, like Tom's design, that was a nice feature?


I know that Ian said that it does act in this way, but I am not understanding how. From the table Ian gave on the first post, on the 1500 series amp, it says that with one channel driven there is 325 Watts into 8 Ohms. That figure remains pretty consistent as more channels are driven into the same load. The previous Axiom amp was able to dump all of the power supply, the whole 1500 Watts when one channel is driven. This seems like a different design that Tom's in this regard. Though with real world material, 325 Watts should be more than enough, for even the most demanding material.

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#375425 - 05/07/12 05:58 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Nick B]
Andrew Offline
Axiom Engineer
veteran

Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 164
The table shows continuous power output figures. This is power that you have available for any length of time that it might be required. What we have not stated is peak or instantaneous power ratings and this is where you are able to momentarily sink far more power into the load than the continuous numbers suggest. This is the power supply "steering" that you are thinking of from the A1400 and the new amplifiers all have this same capability.

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#375427 - 05/07/12 06:09 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: cohesion]
Andrew Offline
Axiom Engineer
veteran

Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 164
Hi Mike,

I know that Ian, Amie, and Steve are all hard at work with creating the web pages for these new amplifiers. They will feature more in-depth specifications. Is there something specific that you'd like to know? The power ratings that Ian gave in his original post are at 1% THD+N.

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#375506 - 05/08/12 11:06 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Andrew]
Nick B Offline
devotee

Registered: 08/05/06
Posts: 490
Originally Posted By: Andrew
The table shows continuous power output figures. This is power that you have available for any length of time that it might be required. What we have not stated is peak or instantaneous power ratings and this is where you are able to momentarily sink far more power into the load than the continuous numbers suggest. This is the power supply "steering" that you are thinking of from the A1400 and the new amplifiers all have this same capability.


Yes, but if there are two, three, or four channels driven then there is also 325 Watts continuous power available to each channel. When 5 channels are driven the number drops to 300 Watts available continuously to each channel, since there is only 1500 Watts that can be had out of the wall. My question is: If 1500 Watts can be split up between the channels so that there is approximately 300 Watts continuously given to each channel, then why can't there be 1500 Watts continuously given if there is only one channel driven? Or 750 Watts if only two channels are driven? Was this limited to 325 Watts continuous since there are some speakers that cannot handle more than than on a over a period of time, or am I missing something? I still don't really understand.

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#375524 - 05/08/12 01:00 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8133
Loc: Tacoma
Continuous <> Peak.
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#375568 - 05/08/12 10:20 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Nick B]
Andrew Offline
Axiom Engineer
veteran

Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 164
Originally Posted By: Nick B

Yes, but if there are two, three, or four channels driven then there is also 325 Watts continuous power available to each channel. When 5 channels are driven the number drops to 300 Watts available continuously to each channel, since there is only 1500 Watts that can be had out of the wall. My question is: If 1500 Watts can be split up between the channels so that there is approximately 300 Watts continuously given to each channel, then why can't there be 1500 Watts continuously given if there is only one channel driven? Or 750 Watts if only two channels are driven? Was this limited to 325 Watts continuous since there are some speakers that cannot handle more than than on a over a period of time, or am I missing something? I still don't really understand.


Ok, I can see where you are having trouble. It's a little difficult because there are two factors at play here. On the one hand we have this large power supply that can supply lots of "power" to how ever many channels need it. On the other we have to look at the amplifiers themselves. By definition, an amplifier cannot swing or deliver more than the available DC power supply voltage to a load (speaker). Once we take losses, including the amplifier's efficiency, into account, the available voltage swing is reduced even further. It's this voltage swing that determines the maximum, continuous output power that the amplifier can deliver into a given load, assuming that we have unlimited current available. So, even though we might be able to deliver 1500 watts from the power supply, the amplifier is limited by the rail voltage.

Time for some quick math:

Let's assume P is power, V is voltage, I is current, and R is resistance. I'm going to leave the complex reactive speaker impedance out of the discussion and assume the load is purely resistive! wink

P = V x I
From Ohm's Law we know that I = V/R
Substituting this equation into the first equation we get:
P = (V x V)/R

In the A1500 we are running +/-85Vdc rails, which means the peak to peak voltage is 170Vdc. However, we can only swing voltage in one direction or the other at a given time. This means we need to use our peak voltage, which is 85Vdc. Power is usually, somewhat erroneously, specified in watts RMS, so we need to convert peak voltage into RMS voltage. To do this we multiply the peak voltage by the square root of 2 (0.707).

Therefore, Vrms = Vpeak x 0.707.
In the A1500 this gives 85 x 0.707 = 60.095 Vrms.

Going back to our original power equation, our maximum output power into 8ohms is:

P = (60.095 x 60.095)/8 = 451.23 watts

But wait a second, this assumes that the entire amplifier is 100% efficient, which it's not. We need to apply the approximate efficiency to the RMS voltage, and this is 90% in the A1500. This gives an actual RMS voltage swing of

V = 60.095 x 0.9 = 54.0855

Redoing our power calculation now gives:

P = (54.0855 x 54.0855)/8 = 365.66 watts

So this is the maximum single channel output power, no matter how much current is available from the power supply. Why does Ian's table state 325 watts for one channel? Because we're still in the preproduction stages of these designs and we wanted to be conservative until the final numbers are in. smile
I hope that was not too hard to follow and helps to clarify the continuous power ratings.

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#375569 - 05/08/12 10:30 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17696
Loc: NoVA
So one does wonder, then, how this would relate to the A1400-8's maximum single channel output power.
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#375570 - 05/08/12 10:51 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ken.C]
Andrew Offline
Axiom Engineer
veteran

Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 164
Originally Posted By: Ken.C
So one does wonder, then, how this would relate to the A1400-8's maximum single channel output power.


The same math applies to the A1400. I believe that the single channel continuous power rating of the A1400 was specified at 350 watts into 8 ohms.

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#375572 - 05/08/12 11:18 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17696
Loc: NoVA
OK, I couldn't remember the numbers.

Indeed after doing a little digging on the website (you guys don't take stuff down, do you?), it is indeed quoted at 350WPC into 8 ohms 1 channel driven.


Edited by Ken.C (05/08/12 11:19 PM)
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#375583 - 05/09/12 12:35 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Andrew]
dakkon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 1806
Originally Posted By: Andrew

In the A1500 we are running +/-85Vdc rails


Does the rail voltage remain constant regardless of load impedance?


I am under the impression, that amps which have power ratings that do not double as load impedance halves varies their rail voltage...If the rail voltage is held constant, then as the impedance halves the power output should double, infinitely in a theoretical situation.

Going off of Ians' chart the rail voltage that Andrew provided, the rail voltage remains constant until there are 3 channels driven at 100%, at which time the rail voltage reduces when a 4ohm load is present. At 3 channels driven @100%, the rail voltage should reduce to approximately 46Vrms or 77% of 60.095 Vrms. the 77% reduction in voltage is representative of the difference between 650W and 500W.

Do i have a correct conceptual understanding of how this works?

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#375588 - 05/09/12 02:28 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Andrew]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11058
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
Originally Posted By: Andrew
Technology races on and there are new and far more sophisticated devices available today that were unheard of 6 years ago, and these are incorporated into all of the new amplifiers.


I'm curious to read more on what this statement entails, and what it means for real-world performance.
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#375595 - 05/09/12 06:52 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: dakkon]
Andrew Offline
Axiom Engineer
veteran

Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 164
Originally Posted By: dakkon
Originally Posted By: Andrew

In the A1500 we are running +/-85Vdc rails


Does the rail voltage remain constant regardless of load impedance?


I am under the impression, that amps which have power ratings that do not double as load impedance halves varies their rail voltage...If the rail voltage is held constant, then as the impedance halves the power output should double, infinitely in a theoretical situation.

Going off of Ians' chart the rail voltage that Andrew provided, the rail voltage remains constant until there are 3 channels driven at 100%, at which time the rail voltage reduces when a 4ohm load is present. At 3 channels driven @100%, the rail voltage should reduce to approximately 46Vrms or 77% of 60.095 Vrms. the 77% reduction in voltage is representative of the difference between 650W and 500W.

Do i have a correct conceptual understanding of how this works?



The rail voltage remains constant until we reach the maximum continuous current capability of the power supply, at which time the rail voltage will reduce or "sag". This is why the power output drops at a certain point when more channels are added. At that point the maximum rail voltage is no longer the limiting factor in output power, it's now the supply current and the subsequent drop in rail voltage. If we had an unlimited supply current available, the power output would keep doubling at each halving of the load impedance until we reach the current limits of the amplifier output stage, which has current limiting protection. On the A1500 this will not take place until you're down into sub-2ohm territory.

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#375596 - 05/09/12 07:00 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: CV]
Andrew Offline
Axiom Engineer
veteran

Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 164
Originally Posted By: CV
Originally Posted By: Andrew
Technology races on and there are new and far more sophisticated devices available today that were unheard of 6 years ago, and these are incorporated into all of the new amplifiers.


I'm curious to read more on what this statement entails, and what it means for real-world performance.


Here's a shortlist of the "big ones":

Lower distortion, particularly at low power outputs where the amplifier spends most of its time operating.

Higher efficiency.

Cooler idling temperature.

Better control of output stage switching = excellent long term reliability.

Extremely robust and instantaneous protection circuitry for major fault conditions.

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#375597 - 05/09/12 07:26 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
MarkSJohnson Offline
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Posts: 10675
Loc: Central NH
Andrew, forgive a naive question, but is there such a thing as "speed" of the amp?

Way back when, I went from a NAD 2200PE to a receiver and felt something was missing. I can only describe it as missing some "liveness" that I was perceiving as a lack of transients...drums, cymbals, a "roughly" played and close-miked acoustic guitar.

I'm not sure if there was a "speed" issue, or it was a matter of having huge reserves for those very short attacks(?).

I used to read of damping factors, etc... which I don't see as much info on anymore.

Is there anything to this?
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#375603 - 05/09/12 08:30 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: MarkSJohnson]
J. B. Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/19/11
Posts: 1237
Loc: Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: MarkSJohnson
Andrew, forgive a naive question, but is there such a thing as "speed" of the amp?

Way back when, I went from a NAD 2200PE to a receiver and felt something was missing. I can only describe it as missing some "liveness" that I was perceiving as a lack of transients...drums, cymbals, a "roughly" played and close-miked acoustic guitar.

I'm not sure if there was a "speed" issue, or it was a matter of having huge reserves for those very short attacks(?).

I used to read of damping factors, etc... which I don't see as much info on anymore.

Is there anything to this?


maybe you're talking about "rise time"...
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#375612 - 05/09/12 09:52 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
MarkSJohnson Offline
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Can't we keep this thread clean? grin
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#375637 - 05/09/12 11:58 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
ClubNeon Offline
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Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 3442
Loc: Western Maryland, USA
It's also known as slew rate, if that's not too dirty for you.
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#375641 - 05/09/12 12:16 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

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Posts: 10675
Loc: Central NH
I guess there are several terms, such as slew rate and damping and rise time which are sometimes, and sometimes not, published.

I just don't know how important they are. Seems like Damping Factor used to be touted everywhere, and now, not so much.

I don't know if their importance has been found to be less than initially thought, or if it's just a matter of marketing, or what.

OK, I hear the groans from bringing up an amp discussion. But I've got a chance to ask someone who designs them.

Here's the real meat of it: JohnK always states that all amps are the same, assuming a flat frequency response. But are there other factors that can make an amp better than another other than FR?

I know the discussion has been beaten to death over the years, but I'm still trying to determine if that perceived difference 15 years ago was false (it certainly COULD have been, it was nowhere near an instantaneous switch!!) or if there are factors that come into play beyond a "flat frequency response".


Edited by MarkSJohnson (05/09/12 12:20 PM)
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#375686 - 05/09/12 04:16 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
Bayne Offline
local

Registered: 10/19/06
Posts: 266
Loc: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
My Denon AVR-3808CI has a built-in 130 watt internal amplifier for each speaker. I know not all AVR's are like the older Japan-built Denon's. Would adding one of these amp's make any difference in my case? Based on room size, the 1000 series would be what I need, but at 8 Ohms, the 125 watts this amp delivers is already below what the 3808 claims to supply.
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#375687 - 05/09/12 04:22 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Bayne]
CatBrat Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 5651
Loc: Some random location
I was wondering how many Watts the 1000 was in 8 ohms. It's 125. I think for my setup a 1000 series with 6 amps would be perfect. Maybe someday I can make that happen. My next upgrade would be 2, preferably 3 QS8's to complete a 6.1 system.

Not sure what color to go with though. All the other speakers are black, except the subwoofer, which is Cinnamon Beech. Perhaps Cinnamon Beech would be good for the QS8's also. No reason they have to be black.

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#375694 - 05/09/12 06:20 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: MarkSJohnson]
Ian Offline
President
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Registered: 03/13/01
Posts: 772
Mark,

I doubt that the difference you heard from your NAD amp to other amps would be related to the speed, or slew rate. The slew rate difference in amplifiers is measured in micro seconds and is not likely to contain any audible difference. The power reserves you mentioned are very likely the reason though. NAD amps tended to be low continuous power with good head room and a nifty soft clipping circuit. This soft clipping circuit would keep the usual harshness associated with clipping to a minimum but you would still lose some of that “attack” we all like that comes from being able to actually cleanly reproduce the dynamic peak requested in the original source.



Edited by Ian (05/09/12 06:21 PM)
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President & Chief Engineer

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#375696 - 05/09/12 06:42 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Bayne]
Ian Offline
President
aficionado

Registered: 03/13/01
Posts: 772
Bayne,

The difference you are wondering about really comes down to the power supply. Coincidently I wrote a little piece about this in our newsletter today. I suspected it would be a question many people would have. Receiver power is almost always rated at the RMS power per channel with one channel driven or with the remaining six channels running at 1/8 power. This means that 130 watts per channel is either 17 watts or 32 watts per channel with all channels driven. Beyond the weak all channels driven power receiver amplifiers are generally also hard limited at the max power rating, 130 watts in your case. This lack of dynamic head room means any required short burst of power above 130 watts will not be reproduced. In some ways quite similar to the type of problem Mark was commenting on.
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President & Chief Engineer

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#375719 - 05/09/12 10:24 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
Bayne Offline
local

Registered: 10/19/06
Posts: 266
Loc: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Ian, thanks for the info. For some time I've been wondering if an amp would be beneficial for my system or just overkill. I'm going to be closely watching the developments here over the next few months. I still need to figure out how the 1000 would be incorporated into my set-up and what sort of cables would be best to connect it to my AVR. You may have just introduced me to my Christmas present to myself this year.
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#375720 - 05/09/12 10:27 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: MarkSJohnson]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10307
Mark, as Ian and Chris point out, what you were referring to is termed "slew rate". This is the rate at which the amplifier changes voltage level over time. The usual parameter is given in volts per micro second. When a frequency during music appears which is higher(faster)than the previous frequency or is louder, the amplifier has to supply more voltage because of the higher level and do it more quickly because of the higher frequency. This is needed to produce that note at the required level and with low distortion. Note that this has nothing to do with sharper transient response or a perceived "tighter, quicker" sound; it's just doing the frequency accurately with low distortion.

The required slew rate at any instant in time is given by 2 x pi x freq. x voltage(peak). For example, to reproduce 20,000Hz at 100 watts(i.e. 40V peak, 28V RMS for 100 watts into 8 ohms, since power equals voltage(RMS)squared/impedance)the slew rate would be about 6.28 x 20,000 x 40 = 5,240,000(in micro-volts)or a slew rate of 5.24 volts per second.

This number contrasts with numbers on the order of 50, 100 or even more which some amplifiers proclaim, and is unrealistically high as is, because no music recordings require full power at 20,000Hz. Many years ago Baxandall
tested LPs for maximum slew rate required and found that 0.5 volt per second was all that was needed. British amplifier designer Michael Renardson updated this work for CDs, as shown here and found a maximum requirement for 100 watts into 8 ohms of 2.5 volts per second(would be 5 volts per second for 400 watts). All receivers/amplifiers of a high fidelity standard handle a band width to 20KHz or more at full rated power, and slew rate isn't a problem with any of these units. Making it 10 or more times higher than required is of no audible benefit and may increase costs.

On the amp "sound" point, you've left out some requirements given beyond flat frequency response, e.g., inaudibly low noise and distortion, and should note holding other factors equal, particularly matching sound levels to within 0.1dB when running blind tests. The same point always has to be repeated: all an amplifier does is add more voltage, and all more voltage does is make the sound louder. If this would ever change it wouldn't be in audio forum discussions, but might be published in my AES journal and possibly lead to a Nobel Prize in Physics.
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#375723 - 05/09/12 10:46 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
Bayne Offline
local

Registered: 10/19/06
Posts: 266
Loc: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Just thought of a quick question: With a powered sub such as my EP500, you would not need to connect it to an external amp, is that correct?
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#375725 - 05/09/12 10:54 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Bayne]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10307
Correct.
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#375726 - 05/09/12 10:54 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Bayne]
avjunkee Offline
veteran

Registered: 07/28/10
Posts: 110
Originally Posted By: Bayne
Just thought of a quick question: With a powered sub such as my EP500, you would not need to connect it to an external amp, is that correct?


That is correct; the amp for that sub is already built in.
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#375743 - 05/10/12 08:28 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
Spoiler Offline
aficionado

Registered: 01/03/06
Posts: 679
Loc: South Florida

Thanks, John. Very informative!
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#375747 - 05/10/12 08:58 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Andrew]
BlueJays1 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 4057
Loc: Porch,enjoying Bombay Sapphire
Originally Posted By: Andrew
Originally Posted By: CV
Originally Posted By: Andrew
Technology races on and there are new and far more sophisticated devices available today that were unheard of 6 years ago, and these are incorporated into all of the new amplifiers.


I'm curious to read more on what this statement entails, and what it means for real-world performance.


Here's a shortlist of the "big ones":

Lower distortion, particularly at low power outputs where the amplifier spends most of its time operating.

Higher efficiency.

Cooler idling temperature.

Better control of output stage switching = excellent long term reliability.

Extremely robust and instantaneous protection circuitry for major fault conditions.


I have a question about #2. Lower distortion at lower output levels. This and possibly in combination with other parameters in the amps design. My question is.

Have you found through either the development phase, comparisons to other amplification (like receivers which we all use) or just living with the product in your home testing different source material and more importantly different speakers, if this amp can provide sound quality benefits even at low to moderate listening levels?








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#375748 - 05/10/12 09:19 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Bayne]
Boltron Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/18/11
Posts: 166
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: Bayne
My Denon AVR-3808CI has a built-in 130 watt internal amplifier for each speaker. I know not all AVR's are like the older Japan-built Denon's. Would adding one of these amp's make any difference in my case? Based on room size, the 1000 series would be what I need, but at 8 Ohms, the 125 watts this amp delivers is already below what the 3808 claims to supply.



I have a 4311CI rated at 140W per channel with 9 channels. Can it drive all 9 channels simultaneously at 140W, no, not even close. The detailed specs list 9 channels at 140W but right below that list is something they refer to as Dynamic Power and it lists 150W x 2 Channels. In reality 150W with two channels driven is what the amp can really do and in my experience just by looking at the size and weight of the transformer, I would believe that.

Actually with movies having a scene that would demand full volume out of all channels is quite rare I think. So even though the Denon specs are misleading, they could probably defend their claim.

Just about a month ago, I took an ancient Bryston 3B I had in storage and hooked it up to the Denon preamp out of the Front L/R to drive my M80s. This made a significant improvement for some movies. Two movies I can point out are Tron and Super 8. The train crash scene of Super 8 is awesome for testing; there are loud crashing sounds from all speakers. As the Denon no longer had to drive the M80s, it had significantly more power available for the center, surrounds and backs. Overall, adding the Bryston has made a noticible overall improvement.

It's funny; the new Axiom amps arrived just at the right time for me. My 25 year old Bryston (and yes I bought it almost new... sigh, I feel so old) is nice but is a power hog and although still sounds clean is based on technology close to 30 years old. So, after hearing the improvement an external amp makes when used with my fronts, I already have put in my pre order for a A1000.
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#375761 - 05/10/12 02:01 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Andrew]
Nick B Offline
devotee

Registered: 08/05/06
Posts: 490
Originally Posted By: Andrew

I hope that was not too hard to follow and helps to clarify the continuous power ratings.


This was very easy to follow, thank you for explaining this so well. I understand now.

Originally Posted By: Andrew

Once we take losses, including the amplifier's efficiency, into account, the available voltage swing is reduced even further. It's this voltage swing that determines the maximum, continuous output power that the amplifier can deliver into a given load, assuming that we have unlimited current available. So, even though we might be able to deliver 1500 watts from the power supply, the amplifier is limited by the rail voltage.


Since the +/- 85Vdc rails seem to be a limiting factor in how much continuous power can be delivered to an one channel at a time, then why don't designers simply go with rails rated with a larger figure? For example if there were a +/- 170Vdc rail, then running the calculations would give approximately 1500 Watts for one channel. Is this a big added expense to the overall design, or just not possible because of some other reason? Or maybe that people don't need 1500 Watts continuous power delivered to one channel?

I'm not trying to be difficult, but am just trying to understand the basics of amplifier designs with my very limited knowledge.



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#375769 - 05/10/12 02:50 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Boltron]
Bayne Offline
local

Registered: 10/19/06
Posts: 266
Loc: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Originally Posted By: Boltron
Originally Posted By: Bayne
My Denon AVR-3808CI has a built-in 130 watt internal amplifier for each speaker. I know not all AVR's are like the older Japan-built Denon's. Would adding one of these amp's make any difference in my case? Based on room size, the 1000 series would be what I need, but at 8 Ohms, the 125 watts this amp delivers is already below what the 3808 claims to supply.



I have a 4311CI rated at 140W per channel with 9 channels. Can it drive all 9 channels simultaneously at 140W, no, not even close. The detailed specs list 9 channels at 140W but right below that list is something they refer to as Dynamic Power and it lists 150W x 2 Channels. In reality 150W with two channels driven is what the amp can really do and in my experience just by looking at the size and weight of the transformer, I would believe that.

Actually with movies having a scene that would demand full volume out of all channels is quite rare I think. So even though the Denon specs are misleading, they could probably defend their claim.

Just about a month ago, I took an ancient Bryston 3B I had in storage and hooked it up to the Denon preamp out of the Front L/R to drive my M80s. This made a significant improvement for some movies. Two movies I can point out are Tron and Super 8. The train crash scene of Super 8 is awesome for testing; there are loud crashing sounds from all speakers. As the Denon no longer had to drive the M80s, it had significantly more power available for the center, surrounds and backs. Overall, adding the Bryston has made a noticible overall improvement.

It's funny; the new Axiom amps arrived just at the right time for me. My 25 year old Bryston (and yes I bought it almost new... sigh, I feel so old) is nice but is a power hog and although still sounds clean is based on technology close to 30 years old. So, after hearing the improvement an external amp makes when used with my fronts, I already have put in my pre order for a A1000.


Boltron, thanks for the reply. I was hoping to get some real-world, relatable advice like this from someone with a similar receiver. I'm starting to understand the advantages an amp would afford my system. After you get your 1000, please let us know your thoughts. I'd especially be intersted in how warm the unit gets.
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#375770 - 05/10/12 03:13 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: MarkSJohnson]
bridgman Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 5256
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: MarkSJohnson
OK, I hear the groans from bringing up an amp discussion. But I've got a chance to ask someone who designs them.


It's not bringing up an amp discussion that's a problem, but why are you bringing it up in an amplifier thread ? That goes against forum conventions.

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#375771 - 05/10/12 03:26 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10675
Loc: Central NH
I'm angling for an opportunity to derail myself!
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#375772 - 05/10/12 03:32 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: MarkSJohnson]
medic8r Offline
axiomite

Registered: 02/05/06
Posts: 6275
Loc: Fredericksburg, Virginia
Originally Posted By: MarkSJohnson
I'm angling for an opportunity to derail myself!

Speak up, Ken can't hear you!


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#375783 - 05/10/12 08:23 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Nick B]
Ian Offline
President
aficionado

Registered: 03/13/01
Posts: 772
Nick B,

I can’t believe I may have just found someone looking for more power than even I would consider enough. At some point the power per channel is out of the range of being of any sort of limitation. Using a 3-channel 1500 series amp to power the three front channels (M80s and a VP180) you would have 700 watts of power available to each them with a total shared power of 1500 watts available (a separate 4-channel amp could be used for the surrounds). This may be getting close to all anyone would need but don’t quote me on that.
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President & Chief Engineer

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#375786 - 05/10/12 09:09 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: JohnK]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10307
I notice now that in my previous reply, although I correctly defined slew rate in terms of volts per microsecond, in the examples I typed "second". The numbers are correct, but the time unit should of course be microseconds(millionths of a second).
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Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#375816 - 05/11/12 09:22 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
wawaron Offline
regular

Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 8
Loc: Northern ON near the Soo
Hi, I'm new to the Axiom forum but have been receiving the newsletter. I met all of you briefly at Le Salon Son et Image in Montreal this year.
I'm glad to see the amps are available before the fall. I own an Anthem MRX 700rated at 120 watts 2 channels driven and 90 watts 5 channels driven from 20hz to 20khz at 0.1% distortion @ 8 ohms. Also have speakers with built in powered subs.

Always been interested in buying one of your power amps, now is my chance. I was looking at the 1000 series 3 channel amp or the 1250 series 3 channel amp. Is there an upgrade option if I decide to go 5 channels later? Like listening to movies at realistic levels same with music. Is an upgrade really needed. Room is average size.

Was even thinking about changing the power cord on the MRX 700???
Thoughts and ideas would be appreciated. Thanks, enjoyed catching up on some forum topics.


Edited by wawaron (05/11/12 09:35 AM)
Edit Reason: forgot a question

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#375826 - 05/11/12 11:19 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8133
Loc: Tacoma
Welcome!

I don't think you're going to find much support around here for esoteric power cords.

That Anthem amp is a fantastic piece. If you're really looking for an upgrade, I'd suggest getting the 3-channel Axiom 1250 or 1500 and keeping the Anthem for the other channels.
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#375831 - 05/11/12 12:19 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: tomtuttle]
wawaron Offline
regular

Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 8
Loc: Northern ON near the Soo
Thanks for comment tomtuttle. I feel the same about power cords but thought I'd ask.

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#375836 - 05/11/12 12:36 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
Amie Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 1620
Hello Wawaron! Is that as in Wawa Ron? In which case double hello! Welcome to the boards!
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Axiom Audio

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#375837 - 05/11/12 12:40 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
J. B. Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/19/11
Posts: 1237
Loc: Quebec, Canada
Amie, what is "Wawa Ron", never heard of that?
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#375838 - 05/11/12 12:48 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
Amie Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 1620
Wawa being my favourite place to stop on the drive from my house to Calgary (okay, second favourite after Brent's house, naturally!) and Ron being Ron, I think!
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Axiom Audio

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#375841 - 05/11/12 01:10 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
Brent Offline
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Wawaron - it's true Amie stops ay my place here in the Sault which is always a delight and then leaves early just to get to Wawa- she loves it there, big city girl and all?
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#375862 - 05/11/12 06:12 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
JAR5197 Offline
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Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 8
So, back to the new amps. I'm seriously considering the new Axiom amps. And, of course, would want to take advantage of the early order savings. I would be interested in learning the difference between the new Axioms on the others around using the Ice Power modules? How doe they differ? How are they better?
Time is running short on this decision :-)

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#375885 - 05/11/12 11:12 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Amie]
wawaron Offline
regular

Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 8
Loc: Northern ON near the Soo
Hi Amie, You have the first part right as in Wawa. JB in French a wawaron is a male bull frog. I do live in Wawa and am male so wawaron. Next time in town let me know we can go for coffee at the best restaurant in Wawa which happens to be outside of Wawa, the Kinniwabi Pines. Best coffee and meals around.


Edited by wawaron (05/11/12 11:14 PM)

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#376080 - 05/14/12 11:08 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: JAR5197]
Ian Offline
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Posts: 772
JAR5197,

The ICE amp module is also a switching amp and will share those high efficiencies for converting wall current to power at the speaker. But when we originally looked into the possibility of using the ICE amp modules they came with their own switching power supply as part of each module. We found this limiting to one of our main design parameters of having a massive analog power supply available to all of the channels. Beyond this show stopper, there were also the limitations of the module itself. Though it would be easy to implement for sure, we really wanted more control over every aspect of the amp design, which designing from the ground up gave us.
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#376117 - 05/14/12 01:03 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
JAR5197 Offline
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Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 8
Thanks Ian,
One more question. The specs show the units are 19 inches wide. Most audeo equipment is 17 inches. Is the 19 wide correct?

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#376120 - 05/14/12 01:07 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
Bayne Offline
local

Registered: 10/19/06
Posts: 266
Loc: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
I use Axiom bulk speaker wire and love it. With one of these amps, would I need to upgrade to one of those fancy uber-expensive, vacuum sealed, phaser-proof cables?
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#376132 - 05/14/12 02:26 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: JAR5197]
Ian Offline
President
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Registered: 03/13/01
Posts: 772
JAR5197

I am glad you asked this. The 19" is an error. Steve is going to fix that now. The front panel is 17.75" wide and the chassis is 17.5" wide so it will fit in a standard rack.
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Ian Colquhoun
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#376134 - 05/14/12 02:31 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Bayne]
Ian Offline
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Registered: 03/13/01
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Bayne,

The 12 gauge Axiom bulk cable will be perfect for the job.
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Ian Colquhoun
President & Chief Engineer

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#376140 - 05/14/12 03:07 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
Bayne Offline
local

Registered: 10/19/06
Posts: 266
Loc: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Originally Posted By: Ian
Bayne,

The 12 gauge Axiom bulk cable will be perfect for the job.


Thanks, Ian. I thought so, ts was just something one of the 'experts' at BB said right before I chuckled. I was never going to be talked into those high-priced cables, but thought I should check.

My wife and I are going to Antartica in January, so I've got to wait a bit until I can order a 1000 series amp. Sigh.
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#376150 - 05/14/12 04:53 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
JAR5197 Offline
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Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 8
I just got an email back from Brent (CS) and he said the 19 inch width was correct. If it is 19, I can't get it in my cabinet. It is is the 17+, it will work. Please verify one more time for me.

Also, is Today the last day of the pre-order pricing? Or is it tomorrow?

Sorry for being such a pain. Thanks

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#376153 - 05/14/12 05:20 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: JAR5197]
Ian Offline
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Posts: 772
JAR5197,

The amps are 17.75" wide for the face panel and 17.5" wide for the chassis. I have let Brent know we changed the spec on the site as well. The last day for the first level of the pre-order pricing is tomorrow. No problem with all the questions, I am sure they are a big help to everyone reading this.
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#376154 - 05/14/12 05:26 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
JAR5197 Offline
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Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 8
Thanks Ian,
Now I just have to decide between the 1250 or the 1500.
I have a pair of Paradigm Studio 100v4 and the big 690 center. The room is large; 15 x 25 x 9. But it is also open into a kitchen dinette area. What are your thoughts here?

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#376156 - 05/14/12 05:32 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: JAR5197]
Ian Offline
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JAR5197,

Given your system and larger space it would certainly not be overkill to go with the 1500 series. If you like to crank it up once and awhile I would recommend the 1500.
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#376157 - 05/14/12 05:37 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
JAR5197 Offline
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Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 8
Me? Crank it up?
Sounds like a 1500 for pre-order crazy

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#376307 - 05/16/12 02:54 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
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Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11058
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
I notice that the home amplifiers page mentions that they "can be configured in 1 to 7 channels," but then in another paragraph it says that they can drive up to eight channels. Not that that affects me. I was simply curious.
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#376310 - 05/16/12 06:24 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
Amie Offline
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Registered: 02/06/02
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Sorry about that! Fixed now and thanks for pointing it out, CV!
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Axiom Audio

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#376314 - 05/16/12 09:43 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
wawaron Offline
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Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 8
Loc: Northern ON near the Soo
Hi all, following a conversation with Brent I pre-ordered one of the new Axiom amps,the ARWW-1250-3. That stands for Axiom Real World Watts.

Too bad that delivery is only in late July can't wait.

Wawaron



Edited by wawaron (05/16/12 09:45 AM)

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#376324 - 05/16/12 10:52 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
Lampshade Offline
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ARWW. Is that the new name?
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#376333 - 05/16/12 12:10 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
Ken.C Offline
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Nope, that's his suggestion--check around page 5. wink
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#376347 - 05/16/12 01:31 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
SirQuack Offline
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I wonder how these would do in comparisson to my Outlaw?
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#380542 - 07/22/12 05:44 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
JAR5197 Offline
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Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 8
Wow, no activity for quite a while. So I'll start some. I'm anxiously awaiting shipping on my new 1500. Delayed a bit due to a big response to early discounts. A good thing I suppose.
I'm just wondering. What type of "break in" if any is suggested with these new monsters?

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#380543 - 07/22/12 05:46 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
Lampshade Offline
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Registered: 11/08/05
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Loc: Holbrook, MA
They are going to test it at the factory so probably none.
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#380544 - 07/22/12 05:52 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
J. B. Offline
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Registered: 01/19/11
Posts: 1237
Loc: Quebec, Canada
from the time you switch on the amp and sit down at the MLP, the break-in will surely be done.
don't worry for nothing. :-)
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#380728 - 07/26/12 03:38 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
Amie Offline
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Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 1620
Well, we're building amps as fast as we can!



Okay here we go, a little bit slower so you can see better! Here's Andrew explaining the inner workings to Kevin:



And some shots of the inside:





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Axiom Audio

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#380731 - 07/26/12 03:59 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
MarkSJohnson Offline
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Nice! smile
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#380734 - 07/26/12 04:39 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Amie]
chesseroo Offline
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Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4733
Loc: western canada
Originally Posted By: Amie
Well, we're building amps as fast as we can!


That explains the blurry first image then, hands of speed.
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#380735 - 07/26/12 04:44 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
Amie Offline
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Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 1620
I knew you'd get it wink
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Axiom Audio

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#380748 - 07/27/12 07:54 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
Murph Offline
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Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 6614
Loc: PEI, Canada
I saw it too, but my brain is still thinking like Bob is still around so I figured any comment and fast blurry hands was just setting myself up.
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#380789 - 07/28/12 10:25 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
solarrdadd Offline
local

Registered: 05/04/10
Posts: 274
Loc: Alexandria, VA
am i the only one who noticed that in the picture with Andrew & Kevin, there's a calendar with a chick in a bikini hanging on the wall?

I Wanna Work At Axiom! crazy
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#380792 - 07/28/12 10:58 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: solarrdadd]
JC2 Offline
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Registered: 02/01/10
Posts: 30
Loc: Canada
Solar it's only to help for the concentration... wink

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#380793 - 07/28/12 11:17 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
bridgman Offline
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Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 5256
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
I don't think you are allowed to operate a business in rural Canada without having at least one of those calendars prominently displayed.

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#380795 - 07/28/12 11:21 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
MarkSJohnson Offline
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Posts: 10675
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It's not like her tweeters are visible. Yeah, it's actually a speaker calendar!
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#380797 - 07/28/12 11:34 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
J. B. Offline
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Registered: 01/19/11
Posts: 1237
Loc: Quebec, Canada
i had to go back one page cause i did not remember seeing a calendar there... ;-)

that calendar, if it's a real help for concentrating, should be cause for extending the guarantee one more year.
all those who agree raise their hand!
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#380801 - 07/28/12 02:12 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Amie]
dakkon Offline
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Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 1806
Originally Posted By: Amie




Is that a rotisserie?

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#380802 - 07/28/12 02:14 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
J. B. Offline
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Registered: 01/19/11
Posts: 1237
Loc: Quebec, Canada
no, it's automatic transmission repair; see the shaft at one end!
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#380804 - 07/28/12 02:45 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
bridgman Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 5256
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
Seems like an Extreme Heavy Duty amplifier holder to hold the chassis in place during assembly but to allow rotation to access various sides.

If it's a rotisserie, I want one.

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#380826 - 07/29/12 12:47 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: bridgman]
chesseroo Offline
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Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4733
Loc: western canada
Originally Posted By: bridgman
Seems like an Extreme Heavy Duty amplifier holder to hold the chassis in place during assembly but to allow rotation to access various sides.

If it's a rotisserie, I want one.

I want a copy of the calendar.
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#380828 - 07/29/12 01:26 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: chesseroo]
JC2 Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 02/01/10
Posts: 30
Loc: Canada
I want the eight channels rotisserie grin

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#381062 - 08/03/12 02:23 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11058
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
Ooh, I got a shipment notification today. I really wish Axiom would specify what was being shipped in those notifications, though. It's fine for people who are only waiting on one thing, but for people who are expecting a number of items to ship, it would be nice to know which one(s) made it out.
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#381063 - 08/03/12 02:48 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: CV]
Ian Offline
President
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Registered: 03/13/01
Posts: 772
CV,

That was an ADA1000-4 that shipped yesterday.
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President & Chief Engineer

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#381072 - 08/03/12 08:25 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
Boltron Offline
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Registered: 11/18/11
Posts: 166
Loc: Toronto
Awesome, hopefully mine will ship next!
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#381074 - 08/03/12 08:34 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
Murph Offline
axiomite

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 6614
Loc: PEI, Canada
As someone who once dated a girl named Ada, Feel free to ship me an Ada1000 as well. Umm just for nostalgia sake, of course. I'll be returning her shortly as I don't think Sharon will like her much.
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#381077 - 08/03/12 08:59 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11058
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
Originally Posted By: Ian
CV,

That was an ADA1000-4 that shipped yesterday.


Thanks, Ian.
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#381080 - 08/03/12 09:05 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Murph]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
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Loc: Central NH
Originally Posted By: Murph
As someone who once dated a girl named Ada, Feel free to ship me an Ada100.

Figures.

My girlfriend in high school was Mary Bose, but everyone called her "Monster".
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#381081 - 08/03/12 09:17 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Murph]
medic8r Offline
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Registered: 02/05/06
Posts: 6275
Loc: Fredericksburg, Virginia
Originally Posted By: Murph
As someone who once dated a girl named Ada

What, was she a teacher or something? That's an old granny name if there ever was one.
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#381082 - 08/03/12 09:18 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: MarkSJohnson]
medic8r Offline
axiomite

Registered: 02/05/06
Posts: 6275
Loc: Fredericksburg, Virginia
Originally Posted By: MarkSJohnson
Figures.

My girlfriend in high school was Mary Bose, but everyone called her "Monster".


grin

But I thought you dated Mark Levinson in high school.
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#381086 - 08/03/12 09:40 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: medic8r]
Murph Offline
axiomite

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 6614
Loc: PEI, Canada
Originally Posted By: medic8r
Originally Posted By: Murph
As someone who once dated a girl named Ada

What, was she a teacher or something? That's an old granny name if there ever was one.


Agreed, it is an older style name but she was far from the stereotype it might depict. Maybe like small-man-syndrome, she was overcompensating.

Urk, I sure hope she never reads this. What are the odds?
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#381109 - 08/03/12 01:33 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: CV]
dakkon Offline
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Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 1806
Originally Posted By: CV
Ooh, I got a shipment notification today.



Do you have your camera ready???

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#381134 - 08/03/12 08:50 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: dakkon]
terzaghi Offline
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Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 4840
Loc: Tulsa, Oklahoma
Originally Posted By: dakkon
Originally Posted By: CV
Ooh, I got a shipment notification today.



Do you have your camera ready???


Better call Mark over for a photo shoot.
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#381135 - 08/03/12 09:00 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: MarkSJohnson]
Dundas Offline
old hand

Registered: 03/02/08
Posts: 71
Loc: Hamilton
Originally Posted By: MarkSJohnson

Figures.

My girlfriend in high school was Mary Bose, but everyone called her "Monster".


Did Noel Lee sue her for using the name?


Edited by Dundas (08/03/12 09:01 PM)

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#381139 - 08/03/12 10:33 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: terzaghi]
pmbuko Offline
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Just be sure to pay him.
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#381180 - 08/05/12 02:26 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: pmbuko]
Adelin Offline
buff

Registered: 07/26/11
Posts: 56
For a future whishlist i could be interested by a serie 1000 amplifier 2 channels.
Nice done 230/115V switch is perfect no need for a converter :p




Edited by Adelin (08/05/12 02:27 PM)

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#381667 - 08/16/12 10:21 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
JAR5197 Offline
regular

Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 8
SO, just wondering if we could get an update? When will the 1250 & 1500s start shipping? My ears are itching :-)

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#381710 - 08/16/12 07:00 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
Amie Offline
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Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 1620
I asked everyone. EVERYONE! And the answer is that we will have an answer tomorrow. So sorry for the delay! But they assured me I'll know more by tomorrow. I will post back!
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Axiom Audio

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#381741 - 08/17/12 09:55 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
Boltron Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/18/11
Posts: 166
Loc: Toronto
My ADA1000 3ch (with serial number that ends in 001) just arrived this morning! I unpacked it and it looks awesome. I unfortunately can't try it out till later in the day frown I'll post later once I get to hook it up and do some calibration.

Doin that happy happy dance... smile


Edited by Boltron (08/17/12 09:56 AM)
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#381745 - 08/17/12 10:44 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
Amie Offline
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Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 1620
001! That's gotta be lucky! Love the happy dance!
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Axiom Audio

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#381774 - 08/17/12 12:48 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Amie]
JAR5197 Offline
regular

Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 8
Congratulations Boltron
I'm so jealous. Please hurry with a quick impressions review.

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#381801 - 08/17/12 08:14 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
Boltron Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/18/11
Posts: 166
Loc: Toronto
First impressions...

Awesome.

Just got my Audyssey calibration done and am going to sit down for a movie.

I played some music and I am hearing little nuances I never heard before with my ancient Bryston 3b. This amp is making my M80s very happy.

I'll post more tomorrow but I am liking what I hear so far.
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#381815 - 08/18/12 01:35 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11058
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
I'd certainly recommend an ADA1000 based on my listening so far. Totally clean at very high output levels.
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#381960 - 08/22/12 01:25 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
Amie Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 1620
Hi everyone;

As those of you who are still waiting for your orders already know, we are still running quite behind on shipping. We’re really sorry. We have what we feel confident is a firm production schedule now:

We’ll finish shipping the ADA1000s by the middle of next week; the ADA 1250s will follow immediately after that and take 1.5 weeks to complete, and then due to order volume, the ADA1500s will ship out daily during the two weeks that follow.

Orders are shipping in the order in which the amplifiers were purchased for each model.

Again, our apologies for this very long delay in getting the amps sent out. We know you’ll love the added depth and power in your home theater system, and hopefully that will help make up for the wait!
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Amie Colquhoun
Axiom Audio

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#381977 - 08/22/12 06:51 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
dakkon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 1806
Amie, for those of us that aren't on your list... Can we get a consolation prize?

smile

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#382067 - 08/24/12 07:55 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: dakkon]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 6960
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: dakkon
Amie, for those of us that aren't on your list... Can we get a consolation prize?

smile

An autographed 8x10 glossy of Ian?
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#382070 - 08/24/12 08:21 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
Socketman Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 1004
Loc: Whitehorse YT
swim suit editon cry
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#382075 - 08/24/12 10:40 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Socketman]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 6960
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Socketman
swim suit editon cry

Deal!

OK Amie. Go snap the pics...
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Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#382079 - 08/25/12 01:53 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: fredk]
Amie Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 1620
Okay, but it's for your eyes only.
_________________________
Amie Colquhoun
Axiom Audio

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#382081 - 08/25/12 03:08 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
Socketman Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 1004
Loc: Whitehorse YT
You have now dated ian LOL from the good ole days .
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#382094 - 08/25/12 07:14 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Amie]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 6960
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Amie
Okay, but it's for your eyes only.

laugh I knew you would come through for us Amie.
_________________________
Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#384938 - 10/31/12 03:11 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: fredk]
cohesion Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/27/12
Posts: 159
Loc: Maple, Ontario, Canada
Just a quick note on my new ADA1500. WOW!!

It is an awesome amp and well worth the wait!

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#385025 - 11/02/12 12:10 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: cohesion]
Nachosgrande Offline
local

Registered: 09/26/06
Posts: 258
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: cohesion
Just a quick note on my new ADA1500. WOW!!

It is an awesome amp and well worth the wait!


What is your setup - and how did you have the 1500 configured?
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Epic Grand Master 500 - trying to fit in a VP180!

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#385180 - 11/06/12 08:09 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
cohesion Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/27/12
Posts: 159
Loc: Maple, Ontario, Canada
I have a 4 channel 1500. When I originally posted I was using it to drive a pair of M80 v3's. This was via pre-outs from my Denon 4802 receiver. (I was only using 2 channels because...) I have now changed my setup and am driving my new LFR 1100's (front and rear) from the ADA 1500.

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#388115 - 01/10/13 02:27 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
us3webbs Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 08/13/07
Posts: 21
Loc: Sherwood, Oregon
I've got 5yr old Epic 80-500 system, which I love. Its driven by similiar aged Onkyo 805. Apple Lossless music on the PC, routed to the stereo via Apple TV (controled by iPad). My room is a great room, which opens into dining and kitchen and hallway. Total square feet of all open areas totals about 800-900. 15ft vaulted ceiling.
I've just come into a few bucks, and might be interested in this new amp. That's a LOT of dough though, for just power. I've got two young kids, so rarely get to crank the volume. I watch a fair amount of movies, and listen to a fair amount of music (although not 'critically' as much anymore, just due to time).
So, if I go with a ADA1250 or ADA1500 (3 channels), will I REALLY notice a major improvement? Or will the difference be minor, and only when I get the house to myself so I can really crank it up?

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#388247 - 01/12/13 12:51 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10394
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
In my experience you should notice a difference even at lower volumes by adding a separate amp, but as you said the biggest difference is when you get to crank it up. I still haven't bought a separate amp despite my desire to get one, I just feel it to big a price to pay for the slight/but noticeable improvements. YMMV
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#388313 - 01/12/13 11:59 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: us3webbs]
cohesion Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/27/12
Posts: 159
Loc: Maple, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: us3webbs
I've got 5yr old Epic 80-500 system, which I love. Its driven by similiar aged Onkyo 805. Apple Lossless music on the PC, routed to the stereo via Apple TV (controled by iPad). My room is a great room, which opens into dining and kitchen and hallway. Total square feet of all open areas totals about 800-900. 15ft vaulted ceiling.
I've just come into a few bucks, and might be interested in this new amp. That's a LOT of dough though, for just power. I've got two young kids, so rarely get to crank the volume. I watch a fair amount of movies, and listen to a fair amount of music (although not 'critically' as much anymore, just due to time).
So, if I go with a ADA1250 or ADA1500 (3 channels), will I REALLY notice a major improvement? Or will the difference be minor, and only when I get the house to myself so I can really crank it up?


For me the difference was big enough that I picked up another amp (used) for the other channels. Not just when I crank it!

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#388448 - 01/15/13 11:43 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: cohesion]
Teachdocs Offline
regular

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 8
Originally Posted By: cohesion
I have a 4 channel 1500. When I originally posted I was using it to drive a pair of M80 v3's. This was via pre-outs from my Denon 4802 receiver. (I was only using 2 channels because...) I have now changed my setup and am driving my new LFR 1100's (front and rear) from the ADA 1500.


Did you add a center channel to your DSP?
What are you using for your center channel speaker and amplification?

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#388484 - 01/15/13 08:48 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Teachdocs]
cohesion Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/27/12
Posts: 159
Loc: Maple, Ontario, Canada
I did add the centre in the DSP but there was no easy way to use it at first. So I was just using the receiver to drive the centre and surrounds. I've more recently added a used 3 channel amp which for the centre channel is connected thru the DSP. I will soon be swapping out my receiver for a used preprocessor.

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#391062 - 03/16/13 09:07 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: cohesion]
SatKartr Offline
aficionado

Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 608
Loc: Dallas
Hi guys,

I recently added a 1500 series amp with 8 channels to my system. I had been running a 1400-8 since 2008, however some of the channels failed, more than once as the amp was upgraded and Axiom stood behind the amp all the way through the process and gave me a very generous option to upgrade from the 1400 to the 1500 series. I am running a Denon 3808ci receiver with a v2 7 channel Axiom ep80-qs8-vp180-800 system. Overall I have preferred the sound from the Axiom amp infinitely more than the Denon, in my room; however, the biggest difference I noticed was when the channels supporting the M80s died. There was just no contest in the comparison between the Axiom amp and the Denon internal amplification, it was killing me just to listen to how anemic it sounded. My surrounds I believe are mounted a bit high so I'm not clear about how important having the whole 8 channels driven by the digital amp is, yet my sense is that the soundstage seems more integrated with the 1500 amp driving all channels than when I had the Denon/Axiom amp combo in force.
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#391297 - 03/21/13 08:04 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
cohesion Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/27/12
Posts: 159
Loc: Maple, Ontario, Canada
I was using an older model Denon receiver before and totally agree that the separate amp is a big improvement. I also agree that this is most noticeable on the front channels but this may in part be due to my relativity lower quality (non-Axiom) surrounds.

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#391441 - 03/25/13 10:11 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: cohesion]
SBrown Offline
aficionado

Registered: 11/16/10
Posts: 804
Loc: Victoria,BC
I just ordered an ADA 1500-4 for my LFRs today, can't wait. Brent said it will take ten days to build, so in about three weeks I will be happy happy!
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#391444 - 03/26/13 08:39 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
medic8r Offline
axiomite

Registered: 02/05/06
Posts: 6275
Loc: Fredericksburg, Virginia
Congrats! We look forward to hearing about you hearing it!
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#392076 - 04/16/13 12:14 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: medic8r]
SBrown Offline
aficionado

Registered: 11/16/10
Posts: 804
Loc: Victoria,BC
I'm looking forward to hearing it too, but it sure is taking a long time to ship.
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#392077 - 04/16/13 12:32 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
J. B. Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/19/11
Posts: 1237
Loc: Quebec, Canada
they build the amps as orders come in,
then Andrew takes them home for a couple of weeks to ensure everything's ok...
...and then they're shipped.
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or: Axiom Gallery

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#392079 - 04/16/13 01:52 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: J. B.]
SBrown Offline
aficionado

Registered: 11/16/10
Posts: 804
Loc: Victoria,BC
Oh...that sounds good. Maybe they should change the "ships in ten business days" on the order page. Not complaining just saying!


Edited by SBrown (04/16/13 01:54 PM)
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#394839 - 07/03/13 04:29 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
us3webbs Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 08/13/07
Posts: 21
Loc: Sherwood, Oregon
Brent twisted my shoulders on an ASA1500-3. Should ship this upcoming Friday (7-5). I vacilate between really excited and reserved/skeptical. I'm looking forward to the 30 day trial for sure. Will be looking for a marked improvement in soundstage/imaging/dynamic response at moderate levels. I don't expect much at low levels, and I'm sure I'll experience the difference at high volume (due to the huge room my setup is in- well over 5000 cubic feet).
I'll let you all know what comes of it!
-Brady

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#394853 - 07/04/13 08:00 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: us3webbs]
Spoiler Offline
aficionado

Registered: 01/03/06
Posts: 679
Loc: South Florida

Look forward to your thoughts!
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Denon 3805 / M2200 Outlaw Monos /
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#395171 - 07/16/13 10:42 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
us3webbs Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 08/13/07
Posts: 21
Loc: Sherwood, Oregon
Got it yesterday. Hooked it up last night. Wife on the couch with me paying bills (she is not nearly into this stuff as I am, and has no clue what this amp cost). First up: Seal's Kissed by a Rose (acoustic version). I heard percussion instruments I had not heard before. But, maybe I was just paying more attention? I turned my head to ask my wife, when she blurted out "I can totally hear the mirimba. that was NOT there before!!" She put the bills down.
Next up, Keb Mo's Closer. Again, incredible detail. Again, I turned me head to get the wife's feedback. She had tears dripping off her face. She says: "do NOT return this amp!!" This is one of her favorite songs, that she's heard numerous times.

I could tell you more, but that's that pretty much sums it up. And were listening a "moderate levels" as the kids were asleep.

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#395176 - 07/16/13 01:13 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8133
Loc: Tacoma
Whoa! How wonderful!
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#395189 - 07/16/13 06:32 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6717
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.
But.....it's not possible as all amps sound the same. wink
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#395190 - 07/16/13 06:35 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8133
Loc: Tacoma
But... If you think it brings you joy, then it DOES bring you joy. wink
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#395198 - 07/16/13 11:54 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
St_PatGuy Offline
axiomite

Registered: 03/07/05
Posts: 7373
Loc: Glendale, Arizona
Fantastic, these are the kind of listening experiences I like to read. Thank you for sharing, Brady! Congrats on your new amp.
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#395209 - 07/17/13 01:07 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
CatBrat Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 5651
Loc: Some random location
Would these amps do any justice with M22's, or would that be a total waste of money?

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#395215 - 07/17/13 09:08 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: CatBrat]
Ian Offline
President
aficionado

Registered: 03/13/01
Posts: 772
The M22s would be a great match for an ADA1000 amp. The dynamic range of music and movies requires lots of power to be available when needed. All of our ADA series amps have not only high power output continuously available per channel but they can also deliver bursts of power well beyond those ratings. It really makes the whole experience so much more realistic to have this kind of power in reserve in your system.
_________________________
Ian Colquhoun
President & Chief Engineer

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#395249 - 07/18/13 01:11 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
CatBrat Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 5651
Loc: Some random location
Thanks Ian. After reading the descriptions of them, I'd probably be happier with the ADA1250, 3 channel amp for L/C/R, where each has 2 sets of 8 ohm speakers per channel, then let the receiver drive the 3 QS8's.

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#395253 - 07/18/13 02:14 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: CatBrat]
Ian Offline
President
aficionado

Registered: 03/13/01
Posts: 772
This is a really smart way to go. Most receivers with pre-outs also have decent enough power to drive the surrounds.
_________________________
Ian Colquhoun
President & Chief Engineer

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#395263 - 07/18/13 05:53 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
us3webbs Offline
hobbyist

Registered: 08/13/07
Posts: 21
Loc: Sherwood, Oregon
And that's how I've set-up my system, with the 1500 driving the fronts and center, and the 805 driving the surrounds. Really works great. No problem with sounds panning from surrounds to fronts, that I can tell. And the over-all effect is MUCH more, how to say this, engrossing? enveloping? Its less like you're listening to the movie and more like you're in the middle of the movie, if that makes sense.
And I agree, voltage=voltage, shouldn't make any difference if it comes from an Onyko receiver or an Axiom amp, right? Only thing I can figure is, even at moderate volumes, the power required to fill my big great room (10,000+ cubic ft?) with sound is way more that the Onkyo can cover at all times, and thus distorts to a certain degree. While the ADA1500 has no problem, with room to spare, even at high volume (which I've experienced btw, and its just wicked cool).
I really feel like, for the first time, I've stepped completely into this mystical "Audiophile" world. Cool place to be.

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#395265 - 07/18/13 09:52 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: us3webbs]
Wid Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/22/03
Posts: 6717
Loc: The Peoples Republic of Il.
Originally Posted By: us3webbs
And that's how I've set-up my system, with the 1500 driving the fronts and center, and the 805 driving the surrounds. Really works great. No problem with sounds panning from surrounds to fronts, that I can tell. And the over-all effect is MUCH more, how to say this, engrossing? enveloping? Its less like you're listening to the movie and more like you're in the middle of the movie, if that makes sense.
And I agree, voltage=voltage, shouldn't make any difference if it comes from an Onyko receiver or an Axiom amp, right? Only thing I can figure is, even at moderate volumes, the power required to fill my big great room (10,000+ cubic ft?) with sound is way more that the Onkyo can cover at all times, and thus distorts to a certain degree. While the ADA1500 has no problem, with room to spare, even at high volume (which I've experienced btw, and its just wicked cool).
I really feel like, for the first time, I've stepped completely into this mystical "Audiophile" world. Cool place to be.



As you can see there was a wink at the end of my reply. I have from the start advocated getting an external amp (I run a Rotel RB1080) and buy as much power as you can comfortably afford. I'm glad your liking your new toy; enjoy. This was long before it was popular.
_________________________
Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud


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#395560 - 07/26/13 03:03 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
CatBrat Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 5651
Loc: Some random location
Well, after getting 5% off and going over my budget, I'll be able to order an ADA-1250 3 channel amp for $1,966.50 on August 23rd, barring any emergencies. smile

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#395564 - 07/26/13 10:21 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
dakkon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 1806
"going over my budget"


This seems to be a common issue my friend.. I think you should take my approach... Forget the budget....

Probably the worst thing for an Economist to say.. But... everyone needs some indulgences..

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#395566 - 07/27/13 10:53 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
terzaghi Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 4840
Loc: Tulsa, Oklahoma
I've always had my eye on a 3 channel amp for the80s and vp180... Maybe some day!
_________________________
-David

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#395990 - 08/09/13 01:01 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
Bayne Offline
local

Registered: 10/19/06
Posts: 266
Loc: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Can anyone comment on how much ventilation these amps need? Do they get very hot?

Am thinking about going big with a 7 channel 1000 or maybe even a 1250 next spring.
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#395991 - 08/09/13 01:09 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
Boltron Offline
veteran

Registered: 11/18/11
Posts: 166
Loc: Toronto
I have a 3 ch 1000 and it runs quite cool.
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#395998 - 08/09/13 03:01 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
J. B. Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/19/11
Posts: 1237
Loc: Quebec, Canada
Bayne, you should check out the class of operation for those amps that interest you;
class D runs very cool, and class A/B runs much warmer.
class F, as on my amps, runs very cool too, but maybe a little bit warmer than class D. the warmest air coming out of my amps, at the fan outlet, is about 40 Celsius.
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or: Axiom Gallery

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#396005 - 08/09/13 09:06 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
exlabdriver Offline
aficionado

Registered: 09/07/11
Posts: 805
I heat my house with my tube amp, ha!

TAM

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#396007 - 08/10/13 06:21 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
J. B. Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/19/11
Posts: 1237
Loc: Quebec, Canada
my amps' class is H, but not F, as i wrote earlier.
;-)


Edited by J. B. (08/10/13 06:22 AM)
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or: Axiom Gallery

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#399846 - 01/09/14 03:08 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11058
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
_________________________
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#399853 - 01/09/14 05:00 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
AdrianD Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/09/12
Posts: 82
Loc: Maple, Ontario
I never thought I would write a post like this, but hey... there is a first for everything :-). Maybe because I always thought Axiom should focus on speakers?
I read the review as well; I'm just not sure how they award products. There is a better, cheaper, more powerful A/B class 5 channel amp that beats the ADA in every category... except power consumption maybe.
I'm not saying the amps are no good.... far from it, but "Exceptional Value" award?
_________________________
M80 v3, 2 x Emotiva UPA-1 Monoblocks, XPA-5, UMC-1 PrePro
Pro-Ject RPM Genie, Carver C2 Phono Preamp

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#399854 - 01/09/14 05:38 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8133
Loc: Tacoma
This isn't a class A/B amp, and "better" is subjective.

"Congratulations" might have been another way to go.
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#399859 - 01/09/14 08:55 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: AdrianD]
Socketman Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 1004
Loc: Whitehorse YT
Originally Posted By: AdrianD
I never thought I would write a post like this, but hey... there is a first for everything :-). Maybe because I always thought Axiom should focus on speakers?
I read the review as well; I'm just not sure how they award products. There is a better, cheaper, more powerful A/B class 5 channel amp that beats the ADA in every category... except power consumption maybe.
I'm not saying the amps are no good.... far from it, but "Exceptional Value" award?


What amp are you referring to ??. Remember that those of us who live in Canada must pay duty and shipping when buying from the states. Also factor in return shipping < < hassle if you have to return it for any reason. The Axiom is upgradeable to more channels, doesn't require a dedicated power outlet, doesn't require a forklift to install and leaves some room for other components, it runs cool and heat is the enemy of pretty much anything man made, including man LOL. As I get older price is not my only consideration, I also take into account customer service. A similar amp from Bryston is 8 grand.
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#399860 - 01/09/14 10:39 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: tomtuttle]
AdrianD Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/09/12
Posts: 82
Loc: Maple, Ontario
I'm sorry that I have offended you guys... not my intention; I simply think these amps are a bit overpriced for what they are, and the review doesn't seem fair.

I do love Axiom... otherwise why would I buy their products? Or be here for that matter?

That "better" is subjective I totally agree; but if we look at the "objective" stuff (specs) it doesn't get any better.

Anyway... just my thoughts.
_________________________
M80 v3, 2 x Emotiva UPA-1 Monoblocks, XPA-5, UMC-1 PrePro
Pro-Ject RPM Genie, Carver C2 Phono Preamp

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#399861 - 01/09/14 11:43 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8133
Loc: Tacoma
..
_________________________
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#399867 - 01/10/14 10:22 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
Socketman Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 1004
Loc: Whitehorse YT
No one is offended here. Honestly I thought the same as you when I recently started looking at amps. As I said I prefer to source from a Canadian company and there isn't a lot to choose from. I tend to keep my stuff a long time, so long term the price is in line. When I was 16 (35yrs ago) I paid almost a grand for my integrated amp 65w/ch so 3g for 5 channels 250w/ch doesn't seem out of line. I have never bought anything based on a review so it has no sway for me one way or the other. I prefer owners experience's more than anything,which is why I come here.

Richard
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#399900 - 01/10/14 04:51 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8133
Loc: Tacoma
I'm just really happy for Ian, Andrew and the rest of the Axiom team to have their hard work recognized in this way. Salut!
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#399905 - 01/10/14 05:08 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
BBIBH Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/10/02
Posts: 1017
Loc: Canada
As a happy long time "Axiomite"....since 1991, I have watched this company grow and I am happy to see the success.

I do find it funny that over the years this forum has looked down upon $1k, $2k, 3k products, claiming that cost does not mean performance or value. Now our lil' Axiom is offering products in those price points and we are happy with those products and costs.

Not looking to argue this, or intending to offend anyone, just and observation. YMMV
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Regards,

Mike

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#399909 - 01/10/14 06:49 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
Socketman Offline
connoisseur

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BB I myself have not been around all that long so I may have missed some of those threads. I know 4 or 5 years ago I was looking at Emotiva and having trouble scratching together money for that. But as time goes along im finding I can treat myself a little better. TBH I don't need a 5 or 7 channel amp with 200w/ch but I want one just the same grin The price may seem too high to some, acceptable to others and a real bargain to people with a higher income. I choose to drive a crappy car and have other toys I value more. What I like about the ADA's is the small footprint and more than enough power for my small room. Also I like hearing other people's input about these sorts of things , not much fun if everyone was of the same opinion. I cant speak for anyone else but I definetly am not offended by what people say about axiom , whether good or bad.

Richard
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#399933 - 01/11/14 02:59 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Socketman]
casey01 Offline
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Registered: 07/03/08
Posts: 733
Loc: Toronto
I think it is important to remember, for quite some time now both with speakers and amps, Axiom has had a pretty close relationship with Bryston(another Canadian company)and I have never heard people complain about the prices of their amps. Also remember the Emotiva stuff is ALL built in China, hence, the considerably cheaper prices. For Canadians, even though one were to import Emotiva from the US, because it is built in China and it has to be displayed like that on their paperwork, there is an automatic 6.5% duty plus brokerage fee added on top of everything else.

Myself, in the recent past, has purchased amps from Outlaw and all but one of their models is assembled in the US, so I am actually supporting an American company(built by ATI in California). Even though the Outlaw amps are comparatively more expensive than the Emotiva stuff, since the country of origin is shown as the US, all duty and depending on your carrier(hopefully not UPS)most brokerage fees are waived, which, when you add everything up, closes the gap with the Emotiva prices.

My next amp(s) will be from Axiom even if I have to wait longer to save up for one (or two). As we all know, in recent years there has been a lot of consolidation in the CE industry which often, doesn't necessarily always bode well for product quality AND after market service. I would rather have a company like Axiom, be able to survive and thrive on its own even if it means opening my wallet a little more.

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#399943 - 01/11/14 06:44 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: casey01]
Mad_Chesser Offline
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Registered: 01/11/13
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Quote:
I would rather have a company like Axiom, be able to survive and thrive on its own even if it means opening my wallet a little more.


Well said. This is a stance I find myself starting to take more and more recently.

I have some questions for anyone willing though(and please bare with me, for I'm not to up on all this technical jargon).

The ADA1500 1 channel says it's max output is 325 watts for 8 ohm and 650 watts for 4 ohm. Exactly double. So the M80v3 being a 4 ohm speaker, does that mean the 1 channel ada1500 has an available 650 watts to give to it?

The 2 channel says the same exact specs though

The 3 channel is still 325 at 8, but 500 watts at 4 ohm.

The 5 channel is 300 watts at 8 and 300 at 4 ohm.

I don't get it. Every other amp manufacturer's specs always seem to have higher numbers for "4 ohm", regardless of number of channels. It seems as the channels increase, so does lack of power.

I don't mind paying the money at all, especially if it's for axiom. But I really am hoping to be able to have an available 500 watts for every speaker in my 5 channel setup. I still have to end up with a product I need a want.

To go that route, it looks like I'd have to buy a 2 channel ada1500 and a 3 channel ada1500. That's a lot of dough

Alternatively, the Emotiva XPR-5, shipped to my door, I was quoted $2700 total, that includes all fees, taxes and duties. It says it has an available 600 watts for every one of the 5 channels, simultaneously, at 4 ohm.

How does this work? Is axiom just being much more honest with their specs? I understand the emotiva is an a/b, while the ADA is a class D...does this have anything to do with it?

I personally think the axiom is a much better product and of course isn't made in china, so I understand the raise in cost.

I'm not really trying to concentrate on the price. My questions more relate to how and why the specs work as they do.

Time to start saving hard it seems. lol




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#399944 - 01/11/14 07:19 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Mad_Chesser]
Socketman Offline
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Loc: Whitehorse YT
Those are good questions , maybe Andrew will stop by and educate us. This is a copy/paste from the amp page.

Understanding the Equation

Although output with eight-channels driven looks small, the fact of the matter is that the power demands from surround channels in a home theater system are much smaller than the power demands of the front left, right and center speakers. As a result, the real-world experience with these amps is lots of power available for the power-hungry front section. a seven-channel amplifier used in a home theater system acts more like a five-channel amp for power-per-channel, as shown in the chart above.



I take this to mean that since the surround channels don't contain a lot of information their power demands are low . This would leave the amp capable of supplying the front 3 channels with the 500 watts specified. No sure why anyone would need that much power anyway ,especially with how efficient the Axiom speakers are. Typical listening requires often less than 1 watt/ch. The Emo amp is definitely a beast and the specs are impressive though I cant seem to find any 3rd party tests to verify its output. I love the internet, shopping from my chair smile

The XPR 5 needs a 20A dedicated circuit, class AB is not as efficient.

I am rereading the whole thread, maybe This will help, scroll about half way down.

Richard
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#399947 - 01/11/14 07:44 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Socketman]
Mad_Chesser Offline
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Posts: 195
Loc: B.C., Canada
Well to preface...at the ear damaging levels I like my music, I definitely use more than 1 watt. I want to be able to achieve,120db...just because I can :p. After retiring my defect rotel...i just cant get it close to loud enough. Plus, I prefer extended stereo for music...i want(perhaps more than I need :p ) 500 watts available for every channel.

I'll start with a 3 channel ada and go from there tho. Who knows...maybe ill be pleased enough with that smile time to start saving.
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#399948 - 01/11/14 07:48 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
Socketman Offline
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Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 1004
Loc: Whitehorse YT
I am glad you brought this up. I decided to read the thread from the beginning and pages 4 and 5 had the answers we both wanted.
A typical receptacle can provide only so much current, and the ADA 1500 has to work within those constraints. Even if you buy 2 amps they will have to be on separate circuits or a dedicated circuit added by your friendly electrician. .

And yeah if ya like it loud and you like power then I say get it. I am all for over indulgence lol. I like it loud too and now im goin deaf. Everything is a compromise in life.

Peace
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#399950 - 01/11/14 08:01 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Socketman]
Mad_Chesser Offline
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Registered: 01/11/13
Posts: 195
Loc: B.C., Canada
That makes sense. Thanks. installing a new dedicated circuit isnt a problem. Its in the plans smile

Im going on 15 years of standing in front of electric guitar amps and loud music...i get hearing tests yearly through work and i'm still doing great. Itll catch up with me eventually though i'm sure lol
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#399954 - 01/11/14 08:33 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
Socketman Offline
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Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 1004
Loc: Whitehorse YT
Lucky you smile It's only been the past 3yrs, started in my late 40's. Mostly the tinnitus, though it comes and goes. Keep us apprised of your choice. I am hoping to get a 5 ch ada-1500 , nothing says I cant add another down the road cool
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#399956 - 01/11/14 08:36 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17696
Loc: NoVA
That's what I thought...

Power Requirements: 115 VAC or 230 VAC +/- 10% @ 50 / 60 Hz (user selectable).
The XPR-5 requires a 20 Amp circuit and standard IEC 20 Amp outlet (which is different than a 15 Amp outlet).If you don’t have a proper circuit and outlet, we recommend you have one installed by a qualified electrician.We recommend that the XPR-5 be plugged into its own dedicated 20 Amp circuit.
From http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/amplifiers/products/xpr5

The Axiom amps are designed for standard 15 amp circuit. That probably explains the discrepancy.

EDIT: In fact, all the XPRs require a 20 amp circuit. Better add the install cost of that puppy to your total amp price! wink


Edited by Ken.C (01/11/14 08:37 PM)
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#399960 - 01/11/14 09:16 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ken.C]
Mad_Chesser Offline
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Registered: 01/11/13
Posts: 195
Loc: B.C., Canada
I dont understand why people are making a big deal of the install of a seperate 20 amp circuit and outlet? Its quite simple and won't cost me much.

I wasnt trying to steer the conversation into a "A VS B" type of thing. I was just using that particular brand as an example to demonstrate numbers. I feel the axiom amp is a much better product quality wise. I dont understand what discrepancy you are referring to?

And Im still am hoping someone can answer my earlier questions. Why, with outlaw, rotel, emotiva, etc...do the 4 ohm specs always appear to be much more than the 8 ohm specs...while on an ada, they are the exact same as soon as you hit 5 channels?

I understand now, that fitting in the constraints of a 15amp circuit, as the number of channels increase, power per channel decreases. But still curious about my other questions. Is axiom just being more honest with their specs?


Edited by Mad_Chesser (01/11/14 09:23 PM)
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#399961 - 01/11/14 09:22 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Mad_Chesser]
Mad_Chesser Offline
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Registered: 01/11/13
Posts: 195
Loc: B.C., Canada
To illustrate with an,example other than emotiva..

My rotel rmb 1095 says 250 at 8 ohms,per channel and 330 at 4 ohm. So does that mean there is 330 available to each,of my 4 ohm axioms?
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#399962 - 01/11/14 09:31 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Mad_Chesser]
Mad_Chesser Offline
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Registered: 01/11/13
Posts: 195
Loc: B.C., Canada
Sigh...i think its inevitable...im going,to have to save for 2 ada amps lol smile

In the meantime..i think I will look into repairing my rotel now that a local dealer is back.
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#399963 - 01/11/14 09:34 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
Ken.C Offline
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Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17696
Loc: NoVA
Sorry, I was a little late to the party on the 20A thing. With discrepancy, I was just talking about the power. I don't know about the 4ohm thing.

I have a full electrical panel at my house, so a 20A circuit would be a bit more pricey. wink
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#399965 - 01/11/14 09:38 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
Socketman Offline
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Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 1004
Loc: Whitehorse YT
There are many things to consider when looking at amp specs. The most important in my mind is the fact that a speaker is not a constant resistive load. The M80 only drops to 4ohm in certain frequency ranges Impedance graph

Amps are not asked to produce continuous high power levels, it is transient and most power is required by the woofers so if your using a sub and not powering the lower frequencies the required power is much lower. This is why sub amps are such high power .

Read the posts on page 4 and 5 of this thread by Andrew, it explains something that is really quite complicated in an easy to understand fashion that even I can wrap my mind around.

I am not sure what other questions you had other than why some amps double their power into 4 ohms. The AdA amps do up to point where the power supply can no longer maintain current to the rails. 3 channels seems to be the limit ,If they used an even larger power supply and 20A circuit they could maintain rail voltage over more channels.


Andrew Welker
The rail voltage remains constant until we reach the maximum continuous current capability of the power supply, at which time the rail voltage will reduce or "sag". This is why the power output drops at a certain point when more channels are added. At that point the maximum rail voltage is no longer the limiting factor in output power, it's now the supply current and the subsequent drop in rail voltage. If we had an unlimited supply current available, the power output would keep doubling at each halving of the load impedance until we reach the current limits of the amplifier output stage, which has current limiting protection. On the A1500 this will not take place until you're down into sub-2ohm territory.

Richard
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#399968 - 01/11/14 09:51 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Socketman]
Mad_Chesser Offline
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Registered: 01/11/13
Posts: 195
Loc: B.C., Canada
Thanks to all of you guys for all the great input and help. smile

Im still saving for my subwoofer. After that, it will be a 3 channel ada1500. Im set on it now smile from there...we will see. Hopefully ill stop there lol :p
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#399969 - 01/11/14 10:01 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
Socketman Offline
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Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 1004
Loc: Whitehorse YT
No thank you. This helped me at the same time. Hopefully my rambling made some sort of sense. I am totally sure many others like JohnK or Dakkon could have got to the point a lot quicker than I.

HA HA on a side note, its all I can do to not spank my credit card and alleviate my new yearning for a 5ch ada 1500.

Richard
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#399977 - 01/11/14 10:40 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8133
Loc: Tacoma
Spank it!
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#399980 - 01/11/14 10:47 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
Socketman Offline
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Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 1004
Loc: Whitehorse YT
I says pardon me LOL
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#399991 - 01/12/14 09:37 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Socketman]
Andrew Offline
Axiom Engineer
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Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 164
If you want to evaluate the validity of continuous amplifier power output claims, all that's required is some simple math.
In North America, with a typical 15A AC circuit at 120V, you can draw a maximum of 1800 watts. For a 20A circuit you can draw a maximum of 2400 watts. Now that's simply what you can get out of the wall, not what you can get to your speakers, because no amplifier+power supply can be 100% efficient. Class AB amplifiers with linear power supplies typically range from 50-65% and Class D amplifiers can range from 80-95%. So, for a 5-channel Class AB amplifier with 50% efficiency to continuously supply 600 watts to all channels would require 6000 watts from your household AC, not to mention having to dissipate an enormous amount of heat...


Edited by Andrew (01/12/14 09:38 AM)

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#399994 - 01/12/14 12:52 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Andrew]
Socketman Offline
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Registered: 07/12/09
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Originally Posted By: Andrew
If you want to evaluate the validity of continuous amplifier power output claims, all that's required is some simple math.
In North America, with a typical 15A AC circuit at 120V, you can draw a maximum of 1800 watts. For a 20A circuit you can draw a maximum of 2400 watts. Now that's simply what you can get out of the wall, not what you can get to your speakers, because no amplifier+power supply can be 100% efficient. Class AB amplifiers with linear power supplies typically range from 50-65% and Class D amplifiers can range from 80-95%. So, for a 5-channel Class AB amplifier with 50% efficiency to continuously supply 600 watts to all channels would require 6000 watts from your household AC, not to mention having to dissipate an enormous amount of heat...



Andrew, my takeaway from this is that Emotiva's claims are baseless. Something else that came to mind for me is the fact that , typically one room is on a single breaker. So not only am I feeding my amp , I am powering a 60" plasma , my receiver , my dvr or bluray player etc which doesn't even allow my amp access to that 1800 watts. I have a killawatt meter and my tv takes 300 on its own.

Richard
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#399995 - 01/12/14 01:26 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Socketman]
Andrew Offline
Axiom Engineer
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Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 164
Originally Posted By: Socketman

Andrew, my takeaway from this is that Emotiva's claims are baseless. Something else that came to mind for me is the fact that , typically one room is on a single breaker. So not only am I feeding my amp , I am powering a 60" plasma , my receiver , my dvr or bluray player etc which doesn't even allow my amp access to that 1800 watts. I have a killawatt meter and my tv takes 300 on its own.

Richard


This is a very good point but remember, it is virtually impossible with any music or movie programme material to actually require full output for all amplifier channels at the same instant in time. Also remember that your the impedance of your loudspeaker varies with frequency. When we publish a continuous power rating it will always be with a 1kHz sine wave driving a purely resistive 8 or 4 ohm load. These kinds of bench test conditions are nice for defining an apples to apples baseline for power output, but they represent the kind of worst-case scenario that will likely never be seen in the context of an actual system.

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#399996 - 01/12/14 01:52 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
Socketman Offline
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Posts: 1004
Loc: Whitehorse YT
Thanks for clarifying that Andrew, I tend to get ahead of myself when I am typing and leave things out. I realize music is transient and speakers are a constantly changing load (impedance). It is much the same with cars, dyno tests are a good measuring stick for comparison, but no one put's there car up against a building and floors it . Amplifier rating (and horsepower) are some of the most over exaggerated specs. We as humans love MORE, and it is an easy way for marketers to get our attention without being clear about what we are buying. I look forward to purchasing an ADA amp and the fact that they are efficient makes it all the more desirable.

I read through this thread and managed to get all the info I needed, but what would be great is if all this info was in one place as a sticky or maybe something in your blog.

Richard
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#400000 - 01/12/14 05:16 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Socketman]
Mad_Chesser Offline
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Registered: 01/11/13
Posts: 195
Loc: B.C., Canada
Hey thanks for the replies Andrew! What you said makes perfect sense.

I'm really excited to own a 3 channel ADA-1500 now even more! As suggested before, I think I'll just run the rears off my sc-61.

sigh...it feels like it's going to be forever by the time I have a complete stereo. lol

I've been building it bit by bit. I still need a subwoofer. Still need a pair of QS8's. Still need a power amp.

I'm getting there though smile

I literally JUST received a vp160...god what a dominant center. I love it. It makes people's jaws drop when they come in my house. lol

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#400007 - 01/12/14 07:50 PM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
tomtuttle Offline
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Registered: 06/20/03
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Loc: Tacoma
Brilliant posts, Andrew. Thank you.
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#400379 - 01/26/14 06:45 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
jmone Offline
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Registered: 01/08/06
Posts: 148
Loc: Sydney Australia
I'm still thinking on how to drive all my speakers.... One question on the Axiom Amp is why the toroidal PS over Switch Mode PS?
Thanks
Nathan
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#400380 - 01/26/14 10:42 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
brwsaw Offline
aficionado

Registered: 10/12/12
Posts: 853
From Axioms products page;

"By combining a class-D amplifier with a toroidal transformer and a large storage capacitance, you have the muscle you need to deliver power where it's needed, when it's needed."
and
Realiability


Edited by brwsaw (01/26/14 10:47 AM)
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#400659 - 02/05/14 01:26 AM Re: Axiom Amplifiers: The Next Generation [Re: Ian]
rcb Offline
regular

Registered: 08/26/13
Posts: 9
Sorry if this has been said.. it's a long thread!

Those linear power supplies (which prefer to draw their line current in big horrible spikes, and would love a chance to intermodulate your music with rectified line voltage), combined with the inherent nonlinearities in both class AB and D output stages, tend to complicate amplifier design a bit more than Andrew is letting on.

Using huge capacitor banks, minimizing dead time (in class D), raising bias current (in AB), shielding, etc. all reduce the distortion and noise somewhat, but what really makes the difference is the control loop.

What makes the Axiom amps better than the previous generation of class D (and what I'm surprised I haven't heard people talking about) is the way they generate their switching signals; they are essentially self-oscillating delta sigma modulators (similar to a lot of ADCs / DACs). The control loop in this type of amp acts as a low-pass filter for any signal that shows up at the input, but a high-pass filter for the noise that's generated inside the amp. This essentially separates the "good" and "bad" signals into different frequency ranges, with the "bad" being moved up where you can't hear it, and then directed right into the stop-band of the output filter. It also lends itself to tight control with high loop gain over the whole audio spectrum, and allows the control loop to accurately account for the time the output stage spends in between the rails.

I could see it being sensitive to higher frequency EMI though.. hence the linear supply?

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