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#378515 - 06/13/12 03:29 PM Advantages of using 10 AWG cable over 12 AWG cable
Gary Vose Sr Offline
devotee

Registered: 03/17/12
Posts: 302
Loc: Casa Grande, AZ
Now I know most people subscribe to the theory that a good #12 AWG wire cable, would be more than satisfactory in most standard HT system set ups. IN some cases, 14-16 AWG would work as well. I know on the negative side, the the cost will be somewhat higher. The cable will be a little more difficult to work with over the 12 gauge . On the positive side, I know the resistances to the speakers will drop. What would be any additional Pros/Cons you could think of, as minute as it might be. For additional referents, I have my eye on a power amp that will supply 400 watts a cross all seven channels.
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#378517 - 06/13/12 03:33 PM Re: Advantages of using 10 AWG cable over 12 AWG cable [Re: Gary Vose Sr]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17775
Loc: NoVA
Unless you're running 100 foot lines to your speakers, it's really not worth it.


Edited by Ken.C (06/13/12 03:33 PM)
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#378525 - 06/13/12 04:16 PM Re: Advantages of using 10 AWG cable over 12 AWG cable [Re: Ken.C]
Gary Vose Sr Offline
devotee

Registered: 03/17/12
Posts: 302
Loc: Casa Grande, AZ
Originally Posted By: Ken.C
Unless you're running 100 foot lines to your speakers, it's really not worth it.


I was looking for more of a technical response, verses a should I, or shouldn't I one. As an example, a regular car tire, that we have all purchased time and time again. Compare that, with a high rolling resistances tire which is capable of producing higher over all MPG ( which it does as I've been using them for years ). I certainly make no claims as to knowing why this is, I only know I can substantiate their assertion. The negative is the tire costs a little more. The positive is one can expect to receive better gas mileage.

So what I'm looking for is, other than what I mentioned earlier, what is the different both for and against in using the 10 gauge over the 12 gauge wire.
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#378527 - 06/13/12 04:20 PM Re: Advantages of using 10 AWG cable over 12 AWG cable [Re: Gary Vose Sr]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17775
Loc: NoVA
OK, from http://www.cirris.com/testing/resistance/wire.html a 10 ft length of 10 ga has a resistance of .01 ohms. 12 ga is 0.016 ohms at the same length.
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#378530 - 06/13/12 04:43 PM Re: Advantages of using 10 AWG cable over 12 AWG cable [Re: Gary Vose Sr]
nickbuol Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4455
Loc: Marion, IA


or



Just because you CAN doesn't mean that you NEED to...
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#378539 - 06/13/12 06:51 PM Re: Advantages of using 10 AWG cable over 12 AWG cable [Re: Gary Vose Sr]
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13333
Loc: Iowa
tires to wire is not a good comparison, what Ken said.
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#378541 - 06/13/12 07:36 PM Re: Advantages of using 10 AWG cable over 12 AWG cable [Re: Gary Vose Sr]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8288
Loc: Tacoma
The always informative Roger Russell site suggests that for runs under ~30 feet, it simply won't matter.

If you WANT to do the math, there's this:

Quote:
A wire resistance of less than 5% of the nominal speaker impedance is chosen to work well with almost all speaker systems and can be considered conservative. Even a resistance of less than 10% of the nominal value could be used with some speakers and would not be audible. A further explanation can be found in a later section.

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#378544 - 06/13/12 08:32 PM Re: Advantages of using 10 AWG cable over 12 AWG cable [Re: Gary Vose Sr]
dakkon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 1846
Gary, This is the cable that i use for my towers and center channel.
http://www.av-outlet.com/index.html?target=front.html&lang=en-us

i use these cables because they are not that expensive and like you pointed out with the 10gauge wire there is a lower resistance.

DC Resistance: 0.95 Ohm/1000'
• Rac @ 1KHz: 1.971mOhm/ft
• Capacitance @ 1KHz: 17.5pF/ft
• Inductance @ 1KHz: 0.179uH/ft

The spec's that i look at when looking at cables. are resistance, inductance, and capacitance. The inductance and capacitance are determined by the material used to insulate the conductors. the lower the inductance and capacitance the best.

If these two variables are 0, then there will be no altering of the AC signal being transmitted across the cable.

These cables replaced a pair of semi high end monster cables.
These are the cables that the 10gauge cables replaced.
http://www.monstercable.com/productdisplay.asp?pin=62

I like the 10gauge cables much better, one thing to note Monster does not put any specs at all what so ever on their website. Not even the gauge of the conductor..

What amp are you looking at? if that is a 5 channel amp rated for 400W per channel, it should be HUGE if it is a class A or A/B design.. If it is one of the newer digital amps, then it could be smaller..


Btw, my large 2 channel amp has a power cord that has 10 gauge conductors.. The thing is 2X as big as my thumb... That is a pure class A amp though.

I bought the 10 gauge cables that i did, because they do not really cost much more than 12 gauge..


I hope this helps a bit Gary.

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#378547 - 06/13/12 10:49 PM Re: Advantages of using 10 AWG cable over 12 AWG cable [Re: tomtuttle]
Gary Vose Sr Offline
devotee

Registered: 03/17/12
Posts: 302
Loc: Casa Grande, AZ
Originally Posted By: tomtuttle
The always informative Roger Russell site suggests that for runs under ~30 feet, it simply won't matter.

If you WANT to do the math, there's this:

Quote:
A wire resistance of less than 5% of the nominal speaker impedance is chosen to work well with almost all speaker systems and can be considered conservative. Even a resistance of less than 10% of the nominal value could be used with some speakers and would not be audible. A further explanation can be found in a later section.



Tom,

Thanks for both the link, and for being able to decipher, that which I had been looking for. It was very informative. It spoke about the relationships between wires themselves, wires and the power source, as well as the wires and the speaker. It made for an excellent read.
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#378548 - 06/13/12 11:05 PM Re: Advantages of using 10 AWG cable over 12 AWG cable [Re: Gary Vose Sr]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10388
Gary, this has been pretty well covered in the previous replies, especially noting Mr. Russell's excellent article, which should be studied if you haven't done so.

In brief, the slightly lower resistance of 10ga wire is meaningless compared to 12ga(or even the 16ga lamp cord I use)at the length used for main speakers. Minute differences which can be measured but can't be heard are quite common in audio.
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#378549 - 06/13/12 11:16 PM Re: Advantages of using 10 AWG cable over 12 AWG cable [Re: dakkon]
Gary Vose Sr Offline
devotee

Registered: 03/17/12
Posts: 302
Loc: Casa Grande, AZ
Originally Posted By: dakkon
Gary, This is the cable that i use for my towers and center channel.
http://www.av-outlet.com/index.html?target=front.html&lang=en-us

i use these cables because they are not that expensive and like you pointed out with the 10gauge wire there is a lower resistance.

DC Resistance: 0.95 Ohm/1000'
• Rac @ 1KHz: 1.971mOhm/ft
• Capacitance @ 1KHz: 17.5pF/ft
• Inductance @ 1KHz: 0.179uH/ft

The spec's that i look at when looking at cables. are resistance, inductance, and capacitance. The inductance and capacitance are determined by the material used to insulate the conductors. the lower the inductance and capacitance the best.

If these two variables are 0, then there will be no altering of the AC signal being transmitted across the cable.

These cables replaced a pair of semi high end monster cables.
These are the cables that the 10gauge cables replaced.
http://www.monstercable.com/productdisplay.asp?pin=62

I like the 10gauge cables much better, one thing to note Monster does not put any specs at all what so ever on their website. Not even the gauge of the conductor..

What amp are you looking at? if that is a 5 channel amp rated for 400W per channel, it should be HUGE if it is a class A or A/B design.. If it is one of the newer digital amps, then it could be smaller..


Btw, my large 2 channel amp has a power cord that has 10 gauge conductors.. The thing is 2X as big as my thumb... That is a pure class A amp though.

I bought the 10 gauge cables that i did, because they do not really cost much more than 12 gauge..


I hope this helps a bit Gary.



Mark, thanks also for your link as well, it was more than a bit helpful. Reading through the link that Tom provided, it spoke in great detail to what you had mentioned here about resistance,inductance,and capacitance.
_________________________
"When arguing with an IDIOT... make sure the person you're talking to... isn't doing the same."

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#378550 - 06/13/12 11:26 PM Re: Advantages of using 10 AWG cable over 12 AWG cable [Re: JohnK]
dakkon Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 1846
Originally Posted By: JohnK

In brief, the slightly lower resistance of 10ga wire is meaningless compared to 12ga(or even the 16ga lamp cord I use)at the length used for main speakers. Minute differences which can be measured but can't be heard are quite common in audio.


John, one other factor is the ascetics of the products. Part of the reason i bought the products to make the cables that i use is the way that they look. I think that my cables look nice, comparable to cables selling for hundreds of dollars.

I would agree, that the resistance between pretty much all cables at or under 10ft is very minimal.

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#378680 - 06/18/12 03:14 AM Re: Advantages of using 10 AWG cable over 12 AWG cable [Re: Gary Vose Sr]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8288
Loc: Tacoma
My pleasure, Gary. I'm quite sure I became aware of Russel's work courtesy of someone on this forum years ago.
_________________________
bibere usque ad hilaritatem

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#378772 - 06/19/12 08:57 PM Re: Advantages of using 10 AWG cable over 12 AWG cable [Re: Gary Vose Sr]
solarrdadd Offline
local

Registered: 05/04/10
Posts: 278
Loc: Alexandria, VA
Gary, run the #10 if it will make you happier. sometimes you just gotta be happy and go with the hot sexy girl over the girl that is gonna be good to ya and not treat you like dirt (but is not hot & sexy)! hey, can't have everything.

i'm saying be happy cause life is unexpectedly short!
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#378781 - 06/19/12 10:34 PM Re: Advantages of using 10 AWG cable over 12 AWG cable [Re: solarrdadd]
Gary Vose Sr Offline
devotee

Registered: 03/17/12
Posts: 302
Loc: Casa Grande, AZ
Originally Posted By: solarrdadd
Gary, run the #10 if it will make you happier. sometimes you just gotta be happy and go with the hot sexy girl over the girl that is gonna be good to ya and not treat you like dirt (but is not hot & sexy)! hey, can't have everything.

i'm saying be happy cause life is unexpectedly short!



That #10 AWG thing, I can get that by my wife with no problems. It's that hot & sexy thing, that I don't think will fly with her. smile
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