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#386324 - 11/29/12 04:22 PM Best connection for turntable
stermarc Offline
buff

Registered: 03/25/05
Posts: 41
Loc: Montana
Running a Yamaha R-S700 receiver with Axiom M3s.

The Natural Sound is awesome.

The receiver has a phono input, where I've plugged my turntable.

When I play records, I need to take the volume way up to -8 or -12 to fill the room the way I like.

But when listening to the Sirius tuner or the nice CD-S300 through this receiver that great volume level is reached at about -25 to -28. Those would be unbearably loud at -8.

Is this normal?

I also have a little NAD photo preamp in a drawer somewhere Model PP2.

Would that be better than the receiver's built-in phono port?

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#386339 - 11/29/12 07:40 PM Re: Best connection for turntable [Re: stermarc]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8268
Loc: Tacoma
You don't say anything about your turntable or cartridge.

Some receivers have a switch for MM (moving magnet) or MC (moving coil) cartridge types. Is it possible that yours has a switch that is set inconsistently with your turntable?

Also, all of the turntables I've dealt with have a grounding wire. If something is amiss there, you might have a gain problem like you describe.
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#386342 - 11/29/12 08:09 PM Re: Best connection for turntable [Re: stermarc]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10832
Loc: Central NH
Different cartridges have differing output levels. It might just be normal.
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::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::

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#386350 - 11/30/12 08:08 AM Re: Best connection for turntable [Re: stermarc]
Murph Offline
axiomite

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 6738
Loc: PEI, Canada
Things I have learned from this board....

Most modern receivers that have inputs marked "phono" have a pre-amp built into them to compensate for the fact that turntables produce a much weaker signal and do need to be boosted. Different combos of turntables and pre-amps will result in different output levels.

Also required and is likely present in your receiver since it has phono inputs, is a turntable specific equalizer. Bass levels are greatly reduced during the recording process so that the cutting lathe (or whatever it's called) doesn't destroy the master record in reacting to the bass. The equalizer working with the pre-amp boosts the signal at key frequency areas to smooth out the signal back to the intended sound.

Your receiver sounds good, just needs a volume twist, so it is probably fine. However, you could always purchase a dedicated phono preamp to boost and equalize the signal from the turntable before it hits the receiver.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe if you use a pre-amp, you want to plug it into one of your regular stereo inputs instead of the phono jacks. Both because the phono jacks are expecting a weaker signal and also because you probably would not want to doubly apply the equalization.
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#386356 - 11/30/12 10:19 AM Re: Best connection for turntable [Re: stermarc]
alan Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 3186
Loc: Toronto/New York/Dwight
Stermarc,

Murph and others are correct. The "average" moving-magnet (MM) phono cartridge output is typically about 5 millivolts--that's 5 one-thousandths of a volt. Phono preamps may vary somewhat in the amount of gain they apply to a MM phono cartridge input, and you'll often find the phono level below that of other inputs, especially CD players or tuners.

The dedicated phono equalizer Murph refers to is called the "RIAA" curve (Recording Industry Association of America), adopted decades ago to standardize the amount of treble boost and bass cut applied during record cutting (then reversed during playback through the phono preamp) by different record labels.
Previously, standards varied from one company to the next. (The first hi-fi preamp I built for my dad in the 1950s had separate Rolloff and Turnover controls for different record companies.)

You might well try your NAD preamp instead of the Yamaha phono preamp. Plug the NAD into any of the line-level stereo inputs, NOT into the Phono input. The NAD might have more gain than the Yamaha, and you could adjust the Nad preamp output level to match those of your other inputs. By the way, a moving-coil (MC) phono cartridge requires yet another stage of gain applied because its output is miniscule, in microvolts (ten-thousandths of a volt). You usually only find MC inputs on dedicated separate preamps or upper-level receivers.

Regards,
Alan
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#386358 - 11/30/12 12:10 PM Re: Best connection for turntable [Re: stermarc]
stermarc Offline
buff

Registered: 03/25/05
Posts: 41
Loc: Montana
Thanks, that all makes it a little less concerning.

FWIW, This is a Denon DP-300F, no ground wire. I added a Grado Red MM cartridge.

The receiver does not have a MM/MC switch.

The NAD is just a little box. It does have dedicated MM & MC inputs and a switch, plus a ground. But there is no type of control that I can see to vary output levels on it.

BTW, what would I attach the ground wire too?? The rack is metal and glass -- would one wrap it onto a bare-metal area of the rack?

Either way, the M3s sound great with the Yamaha -- vinyl especially sweet of course ...

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#386359 - 11/30/12 12:20 PM Re: Best connection for turntable [Re: stermarc]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8268
Loc: Tacoma
There is usually a thumbscrew on the back of the receiver to attach the ground wire. Maybe only direct drive turntables have a ground. Dunno.

If you're using the NAD box, you wouldn't control the level outputs; it would apply gain/eq based on the switch setting and you'd just use the receiver to vary the output. Make sure you plug it into one of the OTHER inputs on the receiver (NOT the phono input).

So glad you're enjoying the M3's!
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bibere usque ad hilaritatem

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#386362 - 11/30/12 01:41 PM Re: Best connection for turntable [Re: stermarc]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10832
Loc: Central NH
He-he-he-he....Tom said "NAD Box".... he-he-he-he-he...
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::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::

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#386363 - 11/30/12 02:17 PM Re: Best connection for turntable [Re: stermarc]
medic8r Online   content
axiomite

Registered: 02/05/06
Posts: 6380
Loc: Fredericksburg, Virginia
Wasn't "NAD Box" the Negative Orange takeoff of the "Dick in a Box" SNL skit?
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"The Universe is the game of the self, which plays hide and seek forever and ever" - Alan Watts

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#386365 - 11/30/12 02:30 PM Re: Best connection for turntable [Re: medic8r]
cb919 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 1041
Loc: Ottawa, Canada
It was 'junk in a box' and very funny! I just happened to watch a rerun of it last night and have been humming the tune all day. Apparently singing it out loud in the office is frowned upon. grin
Here's another catchy tune that is going viral - Dumb Ways To Die.
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Dan
In/On Wall 500 w M2 Center Channel

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