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#386424 - 12/01/12 12:51 PM Re: Front PJ vs. Plasma TV [Re: GregM]
Gary Vose Sr Offline
devotee

Registered: 03/17/12
Posts: 302
Loc: Casa Grande, AZ
I would have to agree with Michael and Hellcommute when it comes to viewing large. With the right set up, having a very good quality projector and screen, that would lend itself to a better viewing experiences over all when it comes to the WOW and POP viewing aspect.
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#386439 - 12/01/12 08:48 PM Re: Front PJ vs. Plasma TV [Re: GregM]
GregM Offline
veteran

Registered: 06/03/04
Posts: 160
Loc: Kirkland, WA
BTW, I found out the reason I could not calibrate was my Onkyo 809 receiver. Something was getting fouled up in the HDMI processing. If I ran the BD player straight to the Epson 8350 I could calibrate it just fine. If I routed through the 809 the image was dark or damaged in some other way. I performed a firmware upgrade and that fixed the 809. I still don't like the Epson 8350 image but at least now I am confident I have it displaying the best it can.

Greg

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#386445 - 12/02/12 11:16 AM Re: Front PJ vs. Plasma TV [Re: GregM]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3904
Loc: Up yonder
Ya, sometimes AVR's screw with the signal. I always turn that crap off if I can. The VP in almost any display will be better than those in AVR's.

The Sony was about 5K. There are quite a few models out now that are in the 2500 – 5000 range that are quite good, much better than what you have now. I am a stickler for inky blacks, so I tend to look at the JVC or Sony models. With JVC, you get the best native CR, and with Sony, native is still quite good, but they use a dynamic iris to achieve their dymanic CR. I moved from a JVC RS20 to the Sony and even though the native CR is much higher / better with the JVC than the Sony, I can’t really see a difference. The Sony handles motion much better than the JVC. The JVC however has a more ‘film like’ appearance. There is always a con for every pro it seams……

In regards to calibration, unless you are actually manipulating RGB to set color temp and grey scale from 5 – 100 % IRE, white luminance for Gama, and pulling in colors for both the primary and secondary color gamut, you aren’t really “calibrating” your displays. What you are doing is much better than nothing, or “winging it”, but it is not truly calibrating. You can pay someone to do it for you, at a rate of about $500 per display, or you can buy the tools to do it yourself. Steep learning curve, but not rocket science. I use both Calman and Chromapure. For ease of use, I give the nod to Chromapure. You can get a bundle for under $600. With projectors, you need to readdress grey scale as the bulb ages. I recalibrate mine about every 200 hours. http://www.chromapure.com/products-d3pro.asp

I always try to move folks towards calibration before buying new stuff. Sometimes a display just needs a little bit of love… And, if you get the tools to calibrate, they are yours for life and can be used over and over again. Money well spent.
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#386446 - 12/02/12 11:48 AM Re: Front PJ vs. Plasma TV [Re: michael_d]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7047
Loc: Canada
Michael, when you write about light control, just how dark does it need to be for a projector to be effective?

I'll throw another bulb in my RP before I upgrade, but the idea of a large screen is very attractive.
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Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#386449 - 12/02/12 05:53 PM Re: Front PJ vs. Plasma TV [Re: GregM]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3904
Loc: Up yonder
Sorry, but there never is a simple answer with this hobby and electronics. But for the sake of this conversation, when using a projector, it's best to strive for a light controlled room / area, because ambient light WILL adversely affect the image. No way to get around that. Just the nature of the beast and your favorite topic, physics.

It a nutshell, really depends on the projector and what it's being used for. I've got a couple at work for conference rooms with over 3000 lumens and you can watch a game just fine with all the overhead florescent lights on... But a movie??? Neh...

In my HT, we usually turn the lights off when watching a movie, and it is VERY dark, with dark satin paint. But when watching a game, or TV or something where I don't really care to get 'the best' out if it, the lights are only dimmed a bit so that folks can come and go into the room without tripping on something.

A grey screen helps in rooms where there is a bit of ambient light, but they are not a magical device and can only do so much. But they do help..

A screen with some gain is also helpful, especially if ambient light is present. A grey or silver screen with some gain is the most beneficial for ambient light. But…always a “but”, screens with high gain (like the High Power) screen, have a very narrow viewing cone, and work best with the projector below the screen. They also tend to have “sparkles” or “hot spots”. The latest trend for better projectors is to just get a good quality neutral gain white screen.

What I advise folks to do with consideration to lumen output, is to first find out the projector's REAL lumen output, calibrated to 6500K. The real number will generally significantly lower than advertised (JVC seams to be the most honest). Then, multiply that by 65% for rapid bulb output reduction (bulbs loose roughly 30% within the first 500 hours of use). About the only way find this info, believe it or not, is forums. Sometimes the professional reviews will have this data, but not always. So you take that lumen output, and divide your screen size (square foot) into it to give you a FL (foot-lambert) figure.

Example:

Output (calibrated to 6500K) – 400
Screen size – 42” X 96” = 28 square feet
400 / 28 = 14.28 FL
Screen gain – 1.2
14.28 X 1.2 = 17.14

OK, so what FL does a person want??? Well, again, that depends. Some folks like a really bright image, some like a dim image. Some folks THINK they like a bright image because their projector has really crappy contrast, so brightness gives the impression of better contrast. But, generally speaking, 12 – 15 FL is about right for movies in a light controlled room. Sports, a bit more tends to work well; 15 – 18 FL or so.

Also, with respect to the projector’s lumen output, that measurement is taken with 100% light control, so keep that in mind.

Ideally, a person would have an idea of what FL they prefer. Then you figure out what screen size you want. With those two things known, you can then whittle down your projector choices, or expect to pony up for a High Power screen to get the FL you want.
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#386450 - 12/02/12 06:24 PM Re: Front PJ vs. Plasma TV [Re: GregM]
MarkSJohnson Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 10899
Loc: Central NH
Michael, I've never really looked into projectors or screens for my room, but thanks for a great overview / reference!
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::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::

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#386451 - 12/02/12 07:21 PM Re: Front PJ vs. Plasma TV [Re: GregM]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8290
Loc: Tacoma
Yeah, that's cool, Mike. Thanks for posting all that.
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#386452 - 12/02/12 09:08 PM Re: Front PJ vs. Plasma TV [Re: GregM]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 3904
Loc: Up yonder
Well don't be too appreciative, I'm quite possibly full of it... smile
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#386460 - 12/02/12 10:54 PM Re: Front PJ vs. Plasma TV [Re: michael_d]
fredk Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 7047
Loc: Canada
Yeah, but that's a lot of words up there, so you've gotta be a little less full of it now, right?

I do most of my movie watching at night, so light control would not be an issue then.

I'm wondering if I could get away with a projector for all my needs, including browsing and casual gaming at other times. Probably a silly idea...
_________________________
Fred

-------
Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!

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#386465 - 12/02/12 11:50 PM Re: Front PJ vs. Plasma TV [Re: GregM]
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8290
Loc: Tacoma
Oh, I can be appreciative of and amused by you and still think you're full of it.

wink
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