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#44526 - 05/03/04 05:10 PM One simple question for 2x6
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16259
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
The quote below comes from this post, which 2x6 either ignored or simply didn't see:
In reply to:

... you cannot definitively say that Unit A sounds different/better/worse than Unit B without taking care to do the tests in a way that prevents the tester's bias from influencing the results -- that bias includes both your opposition's bias towards uniformity of sound AND your own bias towards non-uniformity.

That is all I would like you to acknowledge. Just say the word and this whole ordeal can go away.


The statement applies to comparing and then making a qualitative judgment about any audio component, whether it be a cable, receiver, amplifier, etc. Double-blind testing does not favor either side of the debate. Keep in mind that any such test can and should be performed by listening to music with your own ears.

So my question is this: Do you agree or disagree that double-blind testing is necessary before one can make an unbiased ranking judgment (better than / worse than / same as) about an audio component?
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"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#44527 - 05/03/04 06:04 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
No pmb, I don't think double blind testing is a necessary precondition to making an unbiased ranking judgment. While it may be a superior methodology, I trust myself enough to make such judgments for myself and have surprised myself by choices which defied expectations both for the better, no change and for the worse.

BTW, as to those on this board who maintain that all solid state amps sound the same, interconnects and speaker cable don't make any difference, tube amps and tube output CDPs generate a warm wash of distortion and hum, I'm not aware that any proponents of these opinions has conducted any double blind tests either.

Look, pmb, I can only report my experiences, what has worked for me, and what hasn't. If my experience which I truthfully report is at odds with the party-line of some true-believers, or contrary to their theoretical expectations, that's too bad. It seems to me that their opinions are entitled to no a priori preference to mine.

Please don't equate the belief that all solid state amps sound the same with the theory of relativity or survival of the fittest, just because the holders of the all-solid-state-amps-sound-the-same theory consider themselves 'scientists.'

I have repeatedly invited fellow Axiom board members to come by and listen to a nice tube amp fed by a nice CDP with a tube output and connected together by my favorite speaker wires. So far, no takers. After all, why bother when you already know the answer?
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Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#44528 - 05/03/04 06:26 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
BrenR Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 3602
Loc: Winnipeg MB Canada
In reply to:

I have repeatedly invited fellow Axiom board members to come by and listen to a nice tube amp fed by a nice CDP with a tube output and connected together by my favorite speaker wires. So far, no takers. After all, why bother when you already know the answer?



Hmm... travel 1500 miles to hear a CD being amplified by what is essentially a light bulb with a screen? I'm surprised people haven't been battering down your door!

Wanna come up here and watch my carburator work?

Bren R.

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#44529 - 05/03/04 06:41 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
OK Bren, thank you for letting me know you won't be coming by. You declined my invitation with all the class and grace I'd expect from you.
_________________________
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#44530 - 05/03/04 06:41 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
AdamP88 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 08/12/03
Posts: 639
Loc: Omaha, NE
I hold no real bias against tube amps, as I haven't really had much experience with them, but the limited experience I have had with them has definitely made me want to check them out in more detail.

That said, one thing needs to be cleared up. Tubes create distortion (as defined as even order harmonics or something added that wasn't in the original signal). This is a fact. Some designs are more obviously distorted than others, but all tube based designs have it. When someone says "tubes," most people think of that midrange warmth and an overall more "liquid" sound. That was not in the original signal, thus, however pleasing it may sound, it is a distortion of the original signal.

So it is possible to say that tubes cause distortion and still like tubes. It's only a statement of fact, not a statement of bias. This has been a source of contention between you and other members here for a while, but it really shouldn't be an issue.

As far as listening to your system, I definitely wouldn't mind, but I think the degree to which interconnects may affect sound has been greatly exaggerated. At best it's a very minor change, if any.

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#44531 - 05/03/04 06:46 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
Adam, why do you equate even ordered harmonics with distortion? Do you think nature favors odd-ordered harmonics?

I agree that the differences among some speaker wire and interconnects are fairly subtle, but I don't think those differences are necessarily trivial.

Heck, Adam, you're almost a neighbor! If you ever find yourself in Orange County, send me a PM, and I'll throw a steak on the barbie for ya. Bring a few of your favorite CDs and I guaranty you, your ears will be pleased!


Edited by 2x6spds (05/03/04 06:53 PM)
_________________________
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#44532 - 05/03/04 06:51 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
spiffnme Offline
axiomite

Registered: 04/01/03
Posts: 5214
Loc: Los Angeles
In reply to:

Hmm... travel 1500 miles to hear a CD being amplified by what is essentially a light bulb with a screen? I'm surprised people haven't been battering down your door!




No need to diss the guys gear. I'm not sure what the big fuss is about. He has his opinion. You all have yours. No amount of fighting, arguing, and heckling is going to get either camp to change their minds.

It his money, let him buy what makes him happy. Hell my brother has a Louis Vitton travel bag. It cost him close to $1000. I have a $59.95 carry on. He swears his is better. I'll never convince him otherwise.

Here's my suggestion. Leave 2x6 and his opinions alone. And 2x6, how about simply posting messages about your tubes, and wires, without such a harsh edge towards others.

Just a thought.


_________________________
"A nation cannot prosper long, when it favors only the prosperous." -President Barack Obama

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#44533 - 05/03/04 06:53 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16259
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
2x6,

Thanks for your answer. I do not take it to apply to your views on science across the board.

While searching for articles on double-blind testing to include in a follow-up post, I uncovered a fascinating and lengthy exchange on the very subject. It covers both sides of the issue and goes into a fair amound of detail. I thought everyone would enjoy reading it.

http://www.stereophile.com/features/141/
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#44534 - 05/03/04 07:00 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
tomtuttle Offline
axiomite

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8268
Loc: Tacoma
Peter, why the heck did you do this?

2x6, here is an example of a behaviour that I object to. Bren made a joke, damn funny one too, in which he disparaged a type of device. In return, you implied that HE lacked grace and class. Poor show, sir.

Now, please understand, I'm happy you like tubes. I might like them too. I appreciate the honest way in which you convey your experiences. I don't care about double-blind tests or "pure" data. Science exists. Not everything in life SHOULD be quantified. I'll accept people's opinions AND judge for myself.

But I don't know what any of you WANT out of this! Is it to generate one train wreck per week?
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#44535 - 05/03/04 07:01 PM Re: One simple question for 2x6
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
Not to diss your brother, but it's been my experience that folks attracted to Louis Vuitton carry on bags are looking to impress other folk with proof of substantial disposable income - LV bags demonstrate no other virtue.

I appreciate your comments, Spiff, but my choice of a tube amp was for me, and not intended to impress anyone else. I have 8 amps in my house, only one is a tubie, though it is, in my opinion, the most musical of all my amps.
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Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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