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#44772 - 05/04/04 11:15 AM Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
Hi all,
I currently have M80,s, VP150, QS8's and a pair of M22,s that I use for EX surround. I have owned the 80's for about 4 months now and I hate to say it but they are not doing it for me. I have tried them in a ton of locations etc and it's not working. I have tried them with Stratos, Parasound's and various other amps and I'm still not digging it. To me the midrange is just to much! Remember, I'm just talking about my own ears here.

I like Axiom so I'm thinking I will try another set. Perhaps the 60's? Has anybody heard both? If so what are the main differences you found? I may even look at the 50's as my wife has been on me to downsize anyway.

One way or another the 80's are going I just need to determine what goes in there place. Any input is much appreciated.

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#44773 - 05/04/04 11:17 AM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
One more question. Is anybody running the same speakers across the front? Meaning 3 M22's etc vs running a VP 150 or similar.

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#44774 - 05/04/04 11:41 AM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
real80sman Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/16/02
Posts: 1115
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Never, I'm sure there will be many people who will recommend the 60's, but according to the powers that be (search old posts by Alan), the 60's are very close to the 80's in sound. If you don't like the "forwardness" of the 80's, it's doubtfull you will enjoy the 60's any better. My bet would be for the more "laid back" M50's.
_________________________
Shawn

Epic 80/600 + M3's + Custom Finish Algonquin V3's

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#44775 - 05/04/04 12:20 PM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
metalaaron Offline
veteran

Registered: 02/17/04
Posts: 120
Loc: Tennessee
how big is the room? how far do you have them from the wall? how far apart are they?

please let us know because this may be a good example of why users shouldn't always go for the bigger_is_better speaker.
i still say that the m80s should be designated as (primarily) stereo use while the m60s should be more sufficient for HT use. IMHO

you could contrast this to paradigm users. i know a lot of paradigm users who prefer the studio 60s for home theater and the studio 100s for stereo use.

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#44776 - 05/04/04 12:34 PM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4729
Loc: western canada
I would agree with real80sman.
If you really don't like the forward sound and you've tinkered with all you can in your room (it is evident that you've discovered swapping amps makes little difference), Axioms may not be the speaker choice for you. However, if you do want to try something different, the M50/M40/M3 are about the only different line you can get. The change is subtle though so if the present sound is really overwhelming, you may want to look completely elsewhere for main speakers.
There are many comparable brands out there for quality but you will be looking at a bit more cost compared to Axiom. Of the brands i've heard lately and really liked compared to my Axiom, i would suggest you look at Paradigm, Monitor Audio, Tannoy or even PSB.
_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

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#44777 - 05/04/04 01:08 PM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
pinipig523 Offline
buff

Registered: 08/14/03
Posts: 49
Loc: Chicago, IL
sounds like u dont like the forward sound - maybe u can go for the onix rockets.
_________________________
JOEY's PC Sound System: Polk LSi7 (x4, mains and rears) and SVS 25-31PC+ (sub)

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#44778 - 05/04/04 01:36 PM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
alan Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 3178
Loc: Toronto/New York/Dwight
Hi NeverHappy,

How far back are you sitting from the M80s, and what are the room dimensions? Did you buy the M80s new four months ago directly from Axiom? Or did they come from a former retailer in Canada, or a previous owner?

The M60s have ever so slightly less output in the midrange and highs than the M80s, but overall they are extremely similar in tonal balance. Not so the M50s, which are quite a bit softer sounding and less detailed in the mids and highs. The M40s are even more laid-back than the M50s in this respect.

The M80s really sound their best in larger rooms when you are at least 12 feet from them, although currently I have a pair set up adjacent to a pair of M22s barely 8 feet away, and the M80s sound wonderful, but they are difficult to set up at that distance and still get a continuous soundstage.

Perhaps it's the source material. Certainly the M80s, like the M22s and M60s, are relentlessly revealing of bad recordings, but with good ones, they are remarkable. The other day, my mega-changer, running on random, selected a Best of Stevie Wonder compilation, and there is a great cut musically--something about "the City. ."--came on. His vocal is awful--heavily EQ'd, and I think the mike preamp was overloading, because there is audible distortion, yet most of the backup instruments are okay.

I could barely listen to it, were it not so good musically. Then the changer switched to a Sampler CD from Mapleshade Records, "Wild Child: Mapleshade's Music Festival" (08132). What a contrast! The Mapleshade recording quality is a revelation on either the M80s or M22s. Horns and saxes with no harshness, wonderfully natural vocals and percussion, and ambient "room sound" that puts you right there.

As I listened, I thought to myself, "fine and accurate music reproduction really does come down to the loudspeakers and the quality of the original recording." The rest, assuming reasonably competent amplifier and electronic design, is all nuances, so tiny as to be largely insignificant.

Regards,
_________________________
Alan Lofft,
Axiom Resident Expert

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#44779 - 05/04/04 02:29 PM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
Hi Alan,
All my stuff came directly from Axiom. The room is roughly 20 X 20 and the 80's have 12 feet between them. They are 18 inches from the wall and slightly toed in. I sit roughly 13.5 feet from them. I'm currently running them with a Parasound HALO A-23 and also had them running with a Stratos. Either or, the sound didn't change much. I actually ran them straight to my Onkyo 800 for a bit and again, not much change. I have tried Denon, Arcam and various other CD players and so far it's a no go. I have ran them large, small you name it without much change. I'm running a SVS Ultra so bass is not a priority for me as the SVS does everything I need in that department and then some.

Seeing as how I have the day off today I'm going to move my 22's from the back to the front and give them a go and see what I think. I know the room is on the large side but I have them here so why not!!!!!!

As for me trying other speakers, I have tried most of Paradigm's stuff including Studio 100's V2 etc. I A/B'd a set of 100's vs a set of 40's and actually liked the 40's better if that helps narrow down my listening preferences at all. I have also had Monitor Audio Silver 9i's etc. Awesome speaker that I loved but lost as a result of a break-in. When insurance paid me out I bought some Paradigms and then went to Axiom's.

My main reason for wanting to stick with Axiom is money. Monitor and Paradigm are crazy if you ask me on there prices and I won't pay it.

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#44780 - 05/04/04 04:01 PM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
Just so there is no confusion here. The 40's I'm talking about in the post above are Paradigm's not Axiom's! :-)

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#44781 - 05/04/04 04:01 PM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
Misfit_Toy Offline
devotee

Registered: 02/22/04
Posts: 346
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Well...there you have it. The man certainly sounds like he knows what he's talking about. I guess the only real question not asked yet, NeverHappy, is what is your musical tastes? And what is your music to movie ration (30/70)? The mere fact that you have a 7.1 going is an indication to me that you like to watch movies.
What I can tell you about my situation. I have never listened to the M80s, but I do own a pair of M60s and I also run a 7.1. M60s, VP150, QS8s, M2s in a 15x20x15H room and the 60s are my just about my favorite speakers in the mix. In fact the only ones I hesitate on are the M2s. I wonder if I'd prefer the M22s such as you have? But...it's all a fairly new set (1 month). I suppose it's fair to say I'm still tweaking...all the time.
So there you go. A fair pair of questions and a little of me babbling.
_________________________
"We're on the island of Misfit Toys"

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#44782 - 05/04/04 04:12 PM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
My main music tastes lean towards Rock on the harder side. My wife say's I'm a 36 year old metal head but I don't think the stuff I listen to is that hard! I do however have 2 young daughters who like the funky side of things. I don't mind it when they listen to it as it gives my SVS a chance to show what it can do!

As for ratio of movies to music. I can honestly say it's about 70/30 with the high side going to movies.

It's funny that you and almost everybody else seem to really like the 60's. I would love to hear them side by side but the wife will kill me if I order the 60's and have the 80's still sitting here. Have you ever heard the 50's by chance?

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#44783 - 05/04/04 04:35 PM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
Misfit_Toy Offline
devotee

Registered: 02/22/04
Posts: 346
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
I'm proud to have guessed your ratio correctly. Yes. Many do favor the M60s. That's what pulled me to them. This forum. Otherwise I'd have a pair of M80s myself. But I was mostly turned from them from a power/room size standpoint (which you seem to lack in neither).
I've never heard the 50s...but from what I've read on the forums they make a better rock music speaker. Perhaps the 50s are a good fit afterall. How much volume they produce, I'm not sure. But as far as style to perfomance they'd fit really well. I'm sure they'd do great for movies as well.
So, I suppose for you musical taste I'd go for 50s. For movies...I'm sure you'd notice a difference, but how much is uncertain. You'd lose some low end, and certainly the high end (one less tweeter per speaker)...I guess you just won't know till you try it. Hopefully somewhere out here in the great Axiom forum is a M50 user waiting to give you his thoughts...
Good luck!
_________________________
"We're on the island of Misfit Toys"

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#44784 - 05/04/04 11:40 PM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
I have been searching the forums for stuff on the 50's and it all seems to be rather positive. I also found a few post's from folks who are thinking like me, the 80's didn't do it and the 50's did it. Perhaps the lack of a dedicated mid-range? Maybe I don't like mid-range? Who knows but I'm leaning towards the 50's. If I like them, I will ditch my 22's and add another set of 50's in the back. I'm one of those people that in a perfect world (and money was no object) I would run all the same speakers. Everyone would be identical. 50's for the front, back etc.

I have a good buddy of mine who runs all Monitor Audio Silver 5i's for all 5 channels and it sounds amazing.

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#44785 - 05/05/04 01:38 PM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
BigWill Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 1951
Loc: Corona, Calif. USA!!!
I think the most simple, sure solution would be to get yourself a pair of mains that would blend well with the rest of your Axiom set-up (assuming you're happy with the other speakers). I have M60s and have found that some rock recordings sound good and others don't. Maybe the M50s would do it for you. The Monitor Audios would be better (more forgiving) than the M60s on those bad recordings. They may also blend well with the Axioms though I have yet to verify that with my little Bronze 2s. If you send me a dollar, I'll bring 'em downstairs for a listen and let you know. JK
BTW, GoodGuys was willing to sell me MA Silver 8s for $1250 with no payments, no interest for a year. Not too bad, though I decided to stick with my M60s.

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#44786 - 05/05/04 05:39 PM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
snippy Offline
devotee

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 427
Loc: San Luis Obispo, CA
I cannot say I have ever heard a really strong sounding modern/hard rock CD or DVD-Audio. I own the Linkin Park, Staind, and Disturbd DVD-Audios, they really sound poor compared to all of my other DVD-A's. It has nothing to do with my system, but everything to do with the recording. There is usually just too much going on in the music to really appreciate the sound. Have you tried any Jazz or Accoustic rock selections to compare with? I love the sound of the Jack Johnson albums. They have simple, clean guitar and vocals, yet powerful bass.

I learned with my Axioms, just as I did with my HDTV, that when you have revealing equipment, you realize that many products are not well mastered/transferred.
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MySpace

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#44787 - 05/05/04 05:47 PM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17695
Loc: NoVA
That's because the bands don't sound good! Nyuk nyuk nyuk...
_________________________
I didn't do it, no one saw me, you can't prove anything.

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#44788 - 05/05/04 06:09 PM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16220
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
you beat me to it!
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#44789 - 05/05/04 11:06 PM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
Check out Dio's DVD Evil or Divine. It's one of the better sounding ones I have heard. It's not the EAGLES but it's not bad.

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#44790 - 05/05/04 11:07 PM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
Oh yeah, about the speakers. I have a set of 50's on order. Wife is going to lose it but I'm going to sit them side by side with the 80's and see what gives.

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#44791 - 05/06/04 07:34 AM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
real80sman Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/16/02
Posts: 1115
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Never, once you get the 50's, is it at all possible to take both pairs over to your buddy's and do a comparo with his Silver 5i's? It would be awesome to hear your thoughts on the differences in sound between the 3. Plus, you may gain a new appreciation for the 80's hearing them in a new environment.
_________________________
Shawn

Epic 80/600 + M3's + Custom Finish Algonquin V3's

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#44792 - 05/06/04 03:56 PM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
I had the same idea. What we are going to do is bring a set of his 5's over here and have the 80's, 50's and 5's sitting side by side. We have agreed to demo them on my Parasound HALO. That way as we test we can never say the amplification made a change in sound etc.

I'm actually pumped about this but the wife is going to have me for lunch. I will post back when I get to doing this. I already got word from Amie that the 50's shipped so I'm thinking mid next week I will get them.

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#44793 - 05/06/04 03:58 PM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6212
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Boy! I'll really be interested to hear what you think of the three sets. Cool!
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#44794 - 05/07/04 02:11 AM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
Ajax, I'm looking forward to it. I know what the 5's sound like and of course I know what the 80's sound like but to have them side by side will be fun. The Monitor's are a darn nice speaker. Not much for bass but they are one of the more detailed speakers I have heard. For some reason the Monitor's really shine when run with Parasound stuff. Not sure why but the John Curl stuff and Monitor get along really well. Anyway, when this happens I will post back.

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#44795 - 05/07/04 10:40 AM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
alan Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 3178
Loc: Toronto/New York/Dwight
NeverHappy,

Always fun and interesting doing speaker comparisons, but be sure and get the loudness levels exactly equal when you switch from one pair to another. The bias towards picking the ever-so-slightly louder speaker is incredibly persuasive and ever so subtle. I have to constantly check levels with the ol' Radio Shack SPL meter when I do comparisons.

And try and place the speaker pairs in exactly the same location. If you are switching with a comparator, sometimes just the slight shift in soundstage height will bias you to prefer one speaker over another.

A really ruthless test of spectral (tonal) balance is to line up a single sample of each speaker and do instant comparisons in mono with one speaker of each pair. You can zero in on tonal differences very quickly without the flattering and in some ways masking effect of stereo.

Regards,
_________________________
Alan Lofft,
Axiom Resident Expert

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#44796 - 05/08/04 10:14 PM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
Alan, thanks for the feedback. We are going to try them in MONO and see what shakes. We plan to take at least 4 hours to do this just to be fair to all the speakers. Each will be calibrated via a SPL and we are going to go to the point of measuring out each speaker to make sure it sits exactly the same as the one before it. I have also gone ahead and ordered a VP-100 to compare against my VP-150. This is just for fun. When I'm done the VP-100 goes to the back wall and I may go 8.1 or 9.1 from my current 7.1.

My wife is going to shoot me as I still have not told her and chances are everything will probably show-up the start of this week. Maybe I can tell her I got them for her for mothers day?..............Might work.............but I have my doubts!

At the end of all this I will still have Axiom's. The only question is what set?

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#44797 - 05/12/04 01:38 AM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
Well the 50's and the 100 showed up today safe and sound. Tomorrow is test day! I have already hooked up the VP-100 beside my VP-150 for some comparisons and there isn't much to talk about. The VP-100 is a good speaker that holds up just fine versus the VP-150. Only edge I would give the VP-150 is in overall tone. Basically it's a little brighter. Not sure if that is the right word but I think most of you will get what I'm trying to say. Vocals etc sounded exactly the same to me and four other people that were sitting there with me. I even got out the old SPL and they are both outputting the same db with zero changes being needed to the channel level. I punished the VP-100 with the Eagles DTS DVD and it surprised me to say the least. Excellent bass, clear etc. In a nutshell, If I didn't already have the VP-150, I would be more then happy with the VP-100. Not the greatest review but I honestly can't think of anything else to say as they are that close.

The 50's vs the 80's comes tomorrow!

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#44798 - 05/12/04 10:55 AM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
I'm not much of a picture taker but I thought I would give you an idea as to what I have going on. The Odyssey 3 channel is sitting behind the wall. The shelf I have the Stereo Stratos on (Top) will only take so much weight. The HALO is also sitting behind the wall. This picture is a few weeks old and does not show my Phillips 963SA.

http://www2.freepichosting.com/Images/421501138/0.jpg



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#44799 - 05/12/04 10:57 AM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
bigjohn Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 3016
Loc: San Angelo, TX
neverhappy- well, now it looks like you finally have something to be happy about..

thats a nice set up.

bigjohn
_________________________
EXCUSE ME, ARE YOU THE SINGING BUSH??

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#44800 - 05/12/04 10:59 AM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
Here is one showing the back. The M22's and QS8's are what you see. Yes I know the QS'8 are to close to the side wall (Above the tree) but it had to be that way for the wife. I tried them in a few other spots and the difference was minimal, so in the end I can live with this even though it's technically not perfect.

http://www2.freepichosting.com/Images/421501140/0.jpg

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#44801 - 05/12/04 11:00 AM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
Thanks bigjohn and congrats on your new stuff! I saw the pics you posted. Very nice!

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#44802 - 05/12/04 11:00 AM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17695
Loc: NoVA
Personally, I think it's pretty cool that there wasn't much difference.
_________________________
I didn't do it, no one saw me, you can't prove anything.

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#44803 - 05/12/04 11:03 AM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
Yeah me to. I even had the wife sit down and give a listen and she thought the same thing, the VP-150 was a little brighter but overall she thought they both sounded good. I have seen a lot of post's about the VP-150 throwing more sound into the room. That may be the case but if it does I can't tell so it must be minimal to say the least.

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#44804 - 05/12/04 11:04 AM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17695
Loc: NoVA
Actually, I meant that there wasn't much difference in positioning of the QS8s, but the VP100/VP150 thing is pretty cool, too!

BTW, great looking setup.

I'm looking forward (I think!) to hearing about the M50s.
_________________________
I didn't do it, no one saw me, you can't prove anything.

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#44805 - 05/12/04 11:06 AM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
lol Sorry my screw up!......and your right on the QS8's.

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#44806 - 05/12/04 11:36 AM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
bigjohn Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 3016
Loc: San Angelo, TX
your two faces are scaring me!! i hate masks.

bigjohn
_________________________
EXCUSE ME, ARE YOU THE SINGING BUSH??

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#44807 - 05/12/04 07:16 PM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
Ray3 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 2811
Loc: Rochester, NY
Nice setup never. Looks like you'll need to change your moniker to AlwaysHappy. Keep trolling through the music & concert DVDs - they are amazing. Strong recommendation for the Norah Jones DVD.

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#44808 - 05/14/04 10:42 AM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
Well guy's we spent almost 6 hours playing around yesterday and the results didn't surprise me. The Monitor Audio's win on clarity, detail etc. However they have limited bass. The Axiom's had them for lunch in that area. The M80's and M50's are way ahead when it comes to bass. As for M80's vs M50's there really isn't much to say. They sound really close to each other with the 80's being more forward or bright. There is no huge difference in sound from the 80's to the 50's at all. The 50's filled the room with sound just as well the 80's. I had a total of 7 people over and some of these folks have some nice gear and we all agreed that the difference between the 80's and the 50's was one simple thing as I mentioned above. The 80's are a little more in your face on the higher end of the treble scale and that is it.

To all you M50 owners out there, don't panic on moving up to 60's or 80's unless you want a little bit more of a brighter speaker. I'm not sure if brighter is the best word but I think it gets my point across. As for me, I'm keeping the 50's up front and the 80's are gone. The 50's suit my tastes. They are not mid heavy and the treble to me is just fine and dandy without being in your face!

To all current 80 owners, remember that what I like, you may not like and vice versa!

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#44809 - 05/14/04 10:56 AM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
chesseroo Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 4729
Loc: western canada
neverh,
This only goes to show how the subjective evaluations of things are so different and varied from person to person.
You can note here how a friend and I auditioned some Monitor Audio S8s and we thought the bass was more robust than the Axioms (M60s). Saturn also replied with a similar experience.
You reported that the Silver 9i (nearly identical to the 8s) had less bass.
Isn't that interesting eh?

It seems you enjoyed the M50s though and for this reply i know kcarlile will be pretty happy. The difference in sound is subtle. Too many ppl report the difference being a dramatic (and overexaggerated) 'night and day'.
I like the review, as short as it was.
_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

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#44810 - 05/14/04 11:22 AM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
chesseroo, yes it was a short post there is no doubt but I honestly can't think of more to say. The 80's and 50's are very close to each other. There is no night and day difference as many have reported. If there is everybody who was here didn't hear it.

Keep in mind that we had the Monitor Audio 5i's over here not the 8's or 9's. I have owned the 9's and they do in fact have excellent bass and if I remember right, probably better then the Axiom's. It has been a long time since I had the 9's so don't quote me on that. When I did have them I never complained on there bass output. I tried to hunt down a set of 9's yesterday but we didn't have any luck. I did find a local guy who was going to let us audition a set of the new 10's but it was to late in the day to bother.

I actually had some reservations about making my post. I didn't want to get a war going between 50 owners and 80 owners but in the end I figured why not. I have read post's in here that make it sound like the 80's are heads and tails above the 50's and that is not the case by any stretch of the imagination.

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#44811 - 05/14/04 11:29 AM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
One more thing, If I get 10 spare minutes today I'm going to go down and listen to the Monitor Audio 10's just for fun. I hear they are fantastic.....curiosity I guess is getting the better of me.

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#44812 - 05/14/04 11:37 AM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17695
Loc: NoVA
Woo hoo!

Thanks for the comparison. I wasn't really worried about my order, but a little bit, you know...

I love reading speaker comparisons done by real people who don't use all the audio mumbo-jumbo that professional reviewers often do. Thanks!
_________________________
I didn't do it, no one saw me, you can't prove anything.

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#44813 - 05/14/04 11:45 AM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6212
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Me too, Ken. Wish I could hear some 50s sometime.

John, thanks for posting your impressions. I enjoyed what you had to say.
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#44814 - 05/14/04 05:31 PM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
I hate "Audio" terms also. Most if not all of it is marketing hype which is something I know a thing about.

I wish I could have said more but as I sit here listening to the 50's, there is nothing else to add. I also went down and gave the Monitor Audio 10's a listen. WOW! is all I have to say. Very nice. Good bass that was nice and tight, excellent high's and the mids are not to overpowering. If I felt like spending yet more money on this hobby I would seriously consider a pair but they are not cheap to say the least.

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#44815 - 05/14/04 07:14 PM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
Ray3 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 2811
Loc: Rochester, NY
John, thanks for the input on the 50s. You hear almost nothing about them. Interesting compare with the 80s. I would have thought there was a bigger difference. Sounds like you helped Ken avoid some buyer's remorse as well and that's a good thing. Well written and appreciated.

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#44816 - 06/30/04 01:45 AM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
I'm bringing this thread back to life as I have a new test I will be running soon. My father in law has been bitten by the HT bug and wants to try some Axioms. As I still have my 80's and 50's I have thrown out the idea of him getting the 60's. Most of you who have taken the time to read this thread at one point or another know that I didn't like the 80's and have been more then happy with the 50's......to be honest the more I listen to the 50's the more I like them!...........but I'm curious. A lot of you have had real good things to say on the 60's so I figure I will have my father in laws 60's sent to me so I can have a quick listen.

I'm fairly sure going in that I won't like them much as it seems the general consensus is they sound like the 80's but when the chance presented itself to hear them both, I figure why not!

Oh yeah, I know what some of you are thinking, why does he still have the 80's? I actually sold them to my brother in law who has yet to pay me in full for them so I'm hanging on to them. Yes he's family but I ain't a bank!

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#44817 - 06/30/04 02:00 AM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6212
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
In reply to:

I actually sold them to my brother in law who has yet to pay me in full for them so I'm hanging on to them.


Wise Move!

By all means keep us posted as to your impressions of the 60s relative to the 50s and the 80s. Interesting!
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#44818 - 06/30/04 01:15 PM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
bigjohn Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 3016
Loc: San Angelo, TX
never happy-

as ajax requests, please keep us informed of your impressions.. i think you may the only person on here(besides alan and amie) that have heard the 50's, 60's and 80's.. so that makes you some what of a source for information. why dont you go ahead and get the M2's, M3's and the M22's just to round out your collection.

bigjohn
_________________________
EXCUSE ME, ARE YOU THE SINGING BUSH??

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#44819 - 06/30/04 02:00 PM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 17695
Loc: NoVA
Don't forget the M40s. We've got a new person asking about those...
_________________________
I didn't do it, no one saw me, you can't prove anything.

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#44820 - 07/04/04 03:50 AM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
bigjohn, I already have a set of M22's I also have a set of M3's on order! I'm going to try the 3's as a center and then as surrounds. I'm just trying new things out.

I kid you not I have owned almost all of them! If anyone thinks I'm BSing here, ask the good folks at Axiom! :-)


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#44821 - 07/05/04 01:16 PM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
sensibull Offline
regular

Registered: 06/27/04
Posts: 6
Loc: Northern Cali, soon to be Hart...
Thanks very much for your post, NeverHappy, as I happened upon it at a critical time in my decision making process. I imagine many others brand new to the Axiom line have followed the same trajectory as me ... after reading tons of glowing reviews and narrowing down my choices to the M60s or M22s, I actually sought out the bad reviews as a hedge against buyer's remorse (to which I am particularly susceptible). Now I'm finding myself a little worried about the "too bright" tag that seems to be the only line of attack against them. I certainly don't want to re-open the semantic can of worms of "bright" vs. "detailed" but if the M50 mitigates the issue at LESS cost while still delivering outstanding quality, then I may have found the perfect solution. I'm also heartened by the idea that there isn't a huge difference between the VP100 and 150, as that would save me even more money. I'm assuming by the set up you retained, that the QS8s (which now seem, in my situation anyway, to be the one Axiom upgrade that is unquestionably worth the money) still blend well with the lower models of the center and mains?

FWIW, and to protect myself against the inevitable backlash, there are a whole host of reasons why even the remote possiblity of speakers sounding "too bright" or even "overly detailed" worries me. One is that the musician I listen to the most is a guitarist named Steve Kimock who is famous for a crystalline tone that often edges close (at least to my wife's ears) to piercing on its own merits. Any additional shade in that direction might make him off limits and I couldn't bear that.

Secondly, I also collect and listen to a lot of unofficial live recordings, many of which are recorded under ideal circumstances -- with the band's full support, very expensive rigs onstage, in an high as 24bit -- but some of which are not. The idea of spending money on merciless speakers that render unlistensable an already large and ever growing collection is similarly horrifying. I also plan to incorporate a (PC) digital media server into my setup, and though I'll be using a good soundcard, it certainly won't be true audiophile quality and once again I fear the revealing qualities of the M60 or M22 would be a double-edged sword.

I'll just stop now, as I've rambled on WAY too long already (if it's not obvious, I am currently obsessed with the question of which speakers to buy next). I'd love to hear feedback, though, to anything I've said.


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#44822 - 07/05/04 02:34 PM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
skeleterror Offline
newbie

Registered: 07/05/04
Posts: 4
This has been an excellent read. I'm new to these boards, but I've had a set of M50Ti's for some time now. I've heard them in comparison to some M60Ti's. Not under ideal testing circumstances, but close enough. The result? Not much difference at all. The M50Ti's and M60Ti's sounded very similar to my ear. The only difference I could hear was that voices seemed a little bit more forward with the M60Ti's, but we're talking a small enough degree that unless they were side by side, switching back and forth, I'd never really have noticed.

But, NeverHappy, and others, I have a couple questions:

1) Re: the VP100 and VP150. So far I've only used the M50Ti's in a stereo setup. I've played a few movies this way and I love them for movies as well so I'd have no problem expanding into a surround sound system with the M50Ti's as fronts. From the descriptions of the VP100 and VP150, it would seem that the VP100 may be a better match for the M50Ti's...would you agree?

Also, I've not heard the VP100 or VP150 myself. I've been a little bit hesitant due to some reviews. These reviews have mentioned some possible shortcomings of the VP100 and VP150. Namely:

a) The timbre is not a perfect match. Pans are noticable.

This would bug me a lot. With my previous Polk setup, I ended up not using the center at all because it didn't match the tone of the fronts exactly. Can anyone comment on how well the VP100 or VP150 matches the front Axiom speakers? Do pans sound like one continuous sound, or can you notice when it moves from front, to center, to front?

b) I've also heard that the VP150 lacks good dispersion and that if you move to either side, there is a very large change in timbre.

This would also bug me a lot. So can anyone comment? Can you sit to one side of the VP100 or VP150 and still get a good timbre match, or is there a very noticable difference in sound?

2) NeverHappy, you mentioned that the Monitor speakers had better clarity and such, just lacking bass. How much better are we talking here?

The Axioms happen to fit my price range. Would anyone say I'd be much better off purchasing more expensive speakers? I've always heard that the Axioms are good value. The M50Ti's I have certainly better my old Polks, which were actually about the same price. But how much better do more expensive speakers get? Are we talking a small difference here, or something that is really quite obvious?

Thanks for all the info so far. I look forward to the M60Ti comparison and the M3Ti vs. M22Ti as well.

Also, have you tried using the M22Ti's as you fronts yet? I'd love to hear how you think they compare to the towers.

Thank you again.

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#44823 - 07/05/04 02:39 PM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
skeleterror Offline
newbie

Registered: 07/05/04
Posts: 4
I have another question as well.

3) I have a projector setup for my home theater (Z2 + Da-Lite high power 92") so using bookshelf fronts is not out of the question. Towers will not work, but the M22Ti's could.

Would anyone consider the sound of the M22Ti's or M3Ti's to be better than the VP100 or VP150 as a center?

Also, can the M22Ti's be put on their side to use as a center?

Also, I have enough power and whatnot to use two bookshelf speakers as a center, running in series or parallel. I'm really only concerned with getting a perfect timbre match across the front and good dispersion so that people can sit to either side and still get the same sound.

I want the best way to achieve this. So does anyone think that a bookshelf or two bookshelves could do this better than the VP100 or VP150? And if so, would you put it/them standing upright or lay them on their sides?

Thank you.

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#44824 - 07/05/04 02:48 PM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6212
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
I've never heard the M50s, so I'll not be much help.

Some here prefer using a regular speaker as a center, but I think most would advise NOT placing them on their sides.

In addition to the answers you get here, may I suggest that you email Axiom's resident expert, Alan (alan@axiomaudio.com) and ask him the same questions. He's a good guy, and he'll give you the straight poop about timbre matching and using the 22(s) as centers.


_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#44825 - 07/05/04 03:03 PM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
sensibull, I will try and answer some of your questions first. I found the 80's not a little to bright but a ton to bright. I like you listen to a lot of guitar based music albeit on the harder side. Joe Satrani, Steve Morse etc etc. When these guys get going the brightness was simply to much for me to take. As I like Axiom I wanted to stick with them. Thus I went with the 50's and have not looked back. They sound a lot like the 80's but much less bright. As for the QS8's, I actually have a set of M3's on order to try out as surrounds. I like to listen to multi channel music a lot and the QS8's are a great surround speaker but don't do it for me with music.

You also mentioned that you are thinking of either the 22's or the 60's. I can't really help you there as I have only heard the 22's and they are nice little speaker. Clean is a word that comes to mind. Would I use them as mains, I doubt it but a nice speaker none the less.

With respect to the VP100 versus VP150, as I said before and at the risk of starting a war in these forums, there is squat for difference with the exception of the VP150 is once again and a little brighter and has a little wider soundstage. They both do what they were made to do well and that is pass dialogue.

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#44826 - 07/05/04 03:14 PM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
skeleterror, Re: the VP100 and VP150. My own two cents are that yes the VP100 works better with the 50's. I have both the 100 and 150 and when I got my 50's, I went with the 100. I hate to say it but I would agree that the timbre matching could be better on both the 100 and the 150. I can't however say I notice it to much. The panning etc has been relatively accurate as far as I'm concerned.

As for how much better are the Monitor Audios over the Axioms. I think a lot comes down to taste but for me and once again I hate to say it, but it was night and day. The Monitors all the way.

Yes I ran my 22's up front for all of about 10 minutes and put them in the back again. Don't get me wrong they sounded darn good but nowhere near a big enough sound stage for me. I need to hear some bottom end coming from my mains. I also have a fair size room I'm trying to fill. If my room was say half the size, I would look at running 22's as mains.

I'm going to sound like a broken record here but I need to say it again, these are my opinions only based on my listening tastes etc. What I like you may not like etc. Axiom's are a great speaker. Is there better, sure but they will cost a lot more. Monitor Audio comes to mind. If money was no object I would have the Monitor S10's up front in a heartbeat.

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#44827 - 07/05/04 03:15 PM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
md55 Offline
local

Registered: 05/20/03
Posts: 284
Loc: Nevada City, CA
I have M50's and and older VP150 with a WTWTW array rather than the current TWWWT layout. I find the timber match to be very very good. Even though my VP150 is supposed to be less able in terms of even dispersion than the current version, I have never noticed any problem or differnce across the listening positions in my setup. From everything I have heard I beleive the VP100 is excellent as well. The reasons for selecting the VP150 would probaly be the size of your room, the distance from speaker to the listener, and the volume at which you like to listen.

Laying bookshelf speakers on their side will result in an uneven dispersal of frequencies on the horizontal axis due the the asymetric driver layout that would result. This may or may not be a problem depending on your room and listening positions. I believe in earlier threads Alan reported an M22 on its side worked quite well for him as a center.

Given you have M50's I think M3's would be the obvious choice for alternate center(s). I beilieve JohnK uses an M3 for a center channel and is very happy with it. I may be wrong about this, that he is using an M2 with M22 mains.

Using two bookshelves for a center in parallel will result in halving the resistance of their load which may or may not be a problem for your receiver depending on what it is and how loud you play it.

Personally, I would not worry much about timber matching and dispersal with a VP100 or 150. These problems seem to be by far the exception in most setups. Try it and if it really doesn't work you are only out the shipping for one speaker.
_________________________
Mark

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#44828 - 07/07/04 03:56 AM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
skeleterror Offline
newbie

Registered: 07/05/04
Posts: 4
Thank you all for the info. I think I will try the VP100 and see how it sounds. I CAN send it back if I don't like it

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#44829 - 07/12/04 11:41 PM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
Well my father-inlaw is still on the fence for his speakers. We did bring in a set of M3ti's that I hooked up as surrounds and I have to say these sound far better then I thought they would going in. Very clean. They remind me a lot of my M22ti's but a little bit more laid back. They work not bad as surrounds either. With multi channel music they (at least to me) walk on my QS8's. They are by far and away a more musical speaker but based on design alone, they should be. Since I stole my father-in-laws Denon 3805 I have found myself listening to a lot of stuff in 5 channel stereo and the M3ti's with the M50ti's up front, work real well together.......I find myself a little tempted to go back to 7.1 just for music...........but that will have to wait until such time as I pay back my father-in-law for the 3805.

I have put together a few of the pieces for his HT set-up. In case anybody is curious he will be running a 34in Sony XBR KD-34XBR960 and a Sony DVP-NS999ES DVD player or a Denon 2200 DVD player. I'm still on the fence for this one. Speakers are yet to come. Receiver is now going to be my trusty Onkyo TX-SR800.

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#44830 - 07/21/04 03:10 PM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
This is taking forever as my father in-law can't make up his mind. Anyway, has anyone here heard the Swan 6.1's? If so I welcome any and all thoughts.

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#44831 - 08/07/04 01:39 AM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
Well this is done and over with! My TV goes and I get myself in all sorts of trouble. Anyway, the system for my father in law is now complete..............with some of my Axiom speakers.

I had the chance to pick up some Montior Audio Silver 9i's in Rosemah and I jumped at it. My 50's went to the inlaw and I have some new fronts. Not the way I thought this would go but NeverHappy is dam Happy at the moment! lol

This is the end result of what I put together for him:
34in Sony XBR KD-34XBR960
Onkyo TX-SR800
Denon 2200 DVD player
M50's Mains
VP100
No surrounds as of yet.


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#44832 - 08/07/04 11:30 AM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
TonyM Offline
veteran

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 137
Hello NeverHappy,

Hope you are well. Those Monitor Audio Silver 9i's look like some nice speakers, very similar to the M50 in design. Very highly reviewed. The reviews say they are not at all laid back, how do they sound compared to your old M50's?

Later,

TonyM

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#44833 - 08/07/04 01:41 PM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
Hi ya Tony,
I had these speakers before and they have always been one of my favorites. Excellent bass, treble etc. The bottom end on these is far better that I remember. For some reason I had it in my head that the bass was a little lite but that is not the case. I find the bass to be on the money. Not muffled just good bass. As for the 50's vs the 9i's. They are a lot alike but not alike at all if that makes sense. They are both what I would call a laid back speaker but to me the sound of the 9i's is heads and tails above the 50's. I still love the 50's but the 9i's take everything the 50's do well to a new level.

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#44834 - 08/07/04 04:56 PM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
TonyM Offline
veteran

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 137
Hello NeverHappy,

Hope you are well. Sounds like they are as good as the reviews of them that I saw. Enjoy them, it looks like they no longer manufacture that model anymore looks like the Monitor Audio Silver S6 is it's replacement.

Later,

TonyM

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#44835 - 08/07/04 07:47 PM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
Tony,
Actually according to the folks at Monitor, the new S10's are the Silver 9i's big brother. The S6's would be more in line with the Silver 5i's or the Silver 7i's. I heard the 10's and they are an awesome speaker but I still like the Silver 9i's. I have been sitting here all day trying to decide if I'm going to ditch all my Axiom stuff and try and put together a total Monitor Audio system. My M3's blend rather well with the 9i's but there is something there now that is just not right. Have yet to put my finger on it but I will.

I don't buy into all the hype surrounding timbre matching but there may be a little something to it.

Anyway, I will get this figured out sooner or later. My biggest fear is if I go all Monitor again, I may have a hard time putting it all together as the Silver line is no more and the S line does sound a little different. Most reviews I have seen have people wanting the old ones vs the new ones.

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#44836 - 08/07/04 07:54 PM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
TonyM Offline
veteran

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 137
Hello NeverHappy,

Hope you are well. You should be able to pick up some used Monitor Audios on Ebay maybe. Always a risk buying used speakers though, never know if they have been abused. You will figure out what is bugging you, you always do.

Later,

TonyM

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#44837 - 08/07/04 11:54 PM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
NeverHappy Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/12/03
Posts: 1424
Loc: Western Canada
Ok I got this figured out. The M3's up front working with the Monitor's sound a little dull compared to the Monitor's and there are actually standing out now verus blending in. The 3's still sound great but it's way to noticeable for me..... so something has to be changed.

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#44838 - 08/08/04 12:03 AM Re: Odd question 80's vs 60's vs 50's
TonyM Offline
veteran

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 137
Hello NeverHappy,

Hope you are well. From what I have read those 9i's are very accurate speakers, and the M3 is slightly laid back, or dull compared to them. Stick that VP150 into the center, if you still have it, and see how that sounds, should be much less dull sounding.

Later,

TonyM

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