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#52105 - 07/12/04 01:09 PM movie dialogue question help
animate_animate Offline
regular

Registered: 07/12/04
Posts: 9
HI! I have m22ti vp150 and three qs8. I use onkyo 601.
I noticed that when you watch movies the dialogue is very low while the action scenes explode and very loud. I did calibrate the speakers with spl meter and moved around center speaker but still no luck. Is it normal that dialogue comes out in a low volume? Also I noticed that when people have high pitch voices it sounds like a squeaking door(maybe bacause I turn the volume up to hear the dialogue). When I watch the movies the volume is usually at -15 db. And calibration I did is 75db. I don't know what to think. Is it my receiver or center speaker or me:) Any advice will be appreciated. Thank you!

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#52106 - 07/12/04 01:32 PM Re: movie dialogue question help
Capn_Pickard Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/09/04
Posts: 1056
Loc: Arlington, VA (NOVA)
What you're experiencing is the difference in volume of the voices on the track and the explosions (which are louder) due to the dynamic range of the audio track. Basically, the dynamic range is the range of volume (from the quietest moment to the loudest moment) played in the track. The mix has been intentionally done this way so that the explosions have the impact that the director/sound mixer intended.

In a theater it usually is not a problem because the volume is turned up loud enough to hear the voices. The loud explosions are relatively louder too, but this isn't an issue in a sound-isolated theater - without babies, roommates and neighbors to worry about.

One thing you can do is limit the dynamic range on your reciever (by making it narrow, rather than wide or normal). The narrower the dynamic range, the less difference there will be in volume between the quietest and the loudest sound. There may be some changes to the quality of the sound - what they may be, I am not sure. The limited dynamic range will ensure that the voices will be loud, but the explosions don't have the neighbors banging on your door.

About the whining of the high pitched voices - that might be caused by the amp straining to produce a lower level signal at a higher volume (guessing here). In any event, you may find the problem solves itself by narrowing the dynamics. But understand that it might come with some negative side-effects with which others may have more experience which they choose to comment on.

hope this helps.

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#52107 - 07/12/04 01:54 PM Re: movie dialogue question help
bigjohn Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 3016
Loc: San Angelo, TX
the 601 also has a feature that allows you to increase the volume level of the center channel(mainly voice), without affecting your overall calibration.. wait, that sounded wrong..

you can increase the center volume for whatever you are listening to, then when you turn off the receiver, it will automatically go back to the original settings you have made.. now, i know that seems like its defeating the purpose of calibrating in the first place, but keep in mind, your ears dont care about calibration.. if you cant hear the voices, then turn it up so you can.. and this is a way to do that without raising the total volume, and it defaults back to your original settings once you turn it off..

just another idea?

bigjohn
_________________________
EXCUSE ME, ARE YOU THE SINGING BUSH??

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#52108 - 07/12/04 02:04 PM Re: movie dialogue question help
animate_animate Offline
regular

Registered: 07/12/04
Posts: 9
are you talking about increasing the volume of the center in speaker calibration menu where you assing db difference for each speaker? or there is another option. I think I had onkyo manual memorized but didn't remember this option
Thanks guys for your help!!!!

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#52109 - 07/12/04 02:10 PM Re: movie dialogue question help
animate_animate Offline
regular

Registered: 07/12/04
Posts: 9
I mean assigning

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#52110 - 07/12/04 02:13 PM Re: movie dialogue question help
bigjohn Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 3016
Loc: San Angelo, TX
before i tell you wrong, let me double check my manual when i get home.. but, i know its not the regular calibration volume setting.. its a different 'mode' that allows you to increase the center channel volume temporarily.. then, once you turn the unit off, it defaults back to what you have it calibrated at..

i have this on my 701, and just assumed you would have it on the 601.. i will check my manual when i get home this evening, and give more details..

bigjohn


_________________________
EXCUSE ME, ARE YOU THE SINGING BUSH??

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#52111 - 07/12/04 02:19 PM Re: movie dialogue question help
animate_animate Offline
regular

Registered: 07/12/04
Posts: 9
thank you very much!

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#52112 - 07/12/04 04:01 PM Re: movie dialogue question help
James_T Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/03/04
Posts: 715
Loc: Seattle WA
As always BigJohn is right. There is a button on the 510 remote called "Late Night" For the 601/701 it's within the audio adjust menu.
From the manual for the 510:
Late Night (Dolby Digital)
With this function you can reduce the dynamic range of
Dolby Digital material so that you can still hear quiet parts
even when listening at low volume levels—ideal for watching
movies late at night when you don’t want to disturb anyone.
Late Night=Off............no effect
Late Night=Low..........small reduction in dynamic range
Late Night=High .........big reduction in dynamic range
Note that the impact of the Late Night function depends on
the Dolby Digital material that you are playing, and with
some material there will be little or no effect.
This function is automatically cancelled when you set the
HT-R510 to Standby.

Hehe. Sorry, Capt. Credit to you! And a bow to BigJohn for having some humilty.


Edited by James_R (07/12/04 04:10 PM)
_________________________
"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." C Hitchens

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#52113 - 07/12/04 04:06 PM Re: movie dialogue question help
bigjohn Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 3016
Loc: San Angelo, TX
no offense james, but i think you got mine and capt pickards comments confused.. reducing the dynamic range was his idea, just keeping credit where its due.. what i am speaking of is actually adjusting up the center channel volume without affecting the original calibrated levels.. i know it can be done, i just cant remember how here at work.. i will check the manual when i get home.. although, i DO think changing the dynamic will help also.. but if he still wansts the explosions in FULL sound, then turning up the center might be a good alternative.

but i do like what you had to say.. as always, I AM RIGHT!!

bigjohn
_________________________
EXCUSE ME, ARE YOU THE SINGING BUSH??

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#52114 - 07/12/04 04:49 PM Re: movie dialogue question help
Capn_Pickard Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/09/04
Posts: 1056
Loc: Arlington, VA (NOVA)
James - It's ok. I was just crapping from the mouth anyway.
John - Thanks for always being right.

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#52115 - 07/12/04 06:24 PM Re: movie dialogue question help
BigWill Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 1951
Loc: Corona, Calif. USA!!!
Seems to me that you should be able to solve this without using that dynamic range control.
A few questions:
- Do you have the VP150 tilted down so that it points directly at your listening position?
- Did you calibrate by pointing the spl meter directly at each speaker as the test tone went from speaker to speaker? (I believe the correct method is to point the spl meter straight up.)
- Do you have the VP150 set to "small" or "large"?
- If you have it set to small (as it probably should be), are you sure you calibrated your subwoofer correctly? IMO, too much sub will muddy your center channel when you have it set to "small".
Keep trying, it should sound pretty damn good.

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#52116 - 07/12/04 06:54 PM Re: movie dialogue question help
animate_animate Offline
regular

Registered: 07/12/04
Posts: 9
I did put spl meter on tripod pointing up. and I also tried to tilt center speaker down. It is about3 feet higher then front speakers as it sits on top of the tv. I did have it set to small and my sub is not set to produce too much I even tried turning it down. I also have a question about large and small settings. If I have large set it will output full range to speakers. Can I do it with my speakers?
Why it is only recomended with speakers that are 6 1/2 inches? Will it make movies sound better with double bass?
I am a little concern about my center, I just want to make sure it is working right. Is it possible it is wired wrong inside( I mean polarity) cause I checked my wiring alot of times and it is all correct. I am just not to happy with the way things coming out of the center. I hope I don't have a defective one. maybe there is a way to test it some how?

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#52117 - 07/12/04 11:55 PM Re: movie dialogue question help
BigWill Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 1951
Loc: Corona, Calif. USA!!!
I guess you should check driver by driver to ensure that each is indeed operational. It sounds like you know what you're doing. Maybe try running the center a couple clicks louder than everything else?

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#52118 - 07/13/04 01:42 AM Re: movie dialogue question help
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10395
AA, possibly bigjohn is referring to the "Dialog Enhance" feature as described(superficially)on page 59 of your manual. It only mentions T-D mode and isn't clear if it's otherwise available. I'd guess that on the center channel it boosts the formant frequencies(about 1-4KHz)that give speech intelligibility and probabably it raises the center channel volume a bit too. If it is available you could try it for speech, although something like that wouldn't be very good for music.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#52119 - 07/13/04 11:18 AM Re: movie dialogue question help
alan Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 3188
Loc: Toronto/New York/Dwight
Hi animate,

While it's always advisable to calibrate the relative levels of all your speakers, don't get too obsessive about the center channel. With some movies, dialog is mixed at too low a level because in the mixing sessions, the director and the audio engineer know it by heart (they've heard it so many times) and mix it too low. In cases like that, you will need to turn up the center-channel volume until it's clear and intelligible.

That setting may change depending on what movie or video you watch, so find the easiest way to adjust the center-channel volume level. Every receiver will let you do that, but you may have to go to the on-screen menu to adjust it. Usually an increase of 2 to 3 dB is enough to improve dialog clarity.

Also keep in mind that the sound quality of the center-channel speaker is very dependent on placement. All the tips here are useful, but try experimenting with the placement of the speaker. If you can put it beneath your TV screen, you may find the dialog clearer. Every room and setup is different and what works well in one room may not in another.

Don't set your center channel speaker to "Large." Use an 80-Hz crossover freqyency in your receiver's bass management setup. " may inhibit dialog clarity, and your subwoofer will carry all the important bass frequencies anyway.

Regards,

_________________________
Alan Lofft,
Axiom Resident Expert

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#52120 - 07/13/04 01:17 PM Re: movie dialogue question help
animate_animate Offline
regular

Registered: 07/12/04
Posts: 9
Thank you very much for the help and suggestions. I think that there could be other problem. I will take a picture of my setup today and will post it. My room has 3 alcoves the center speaker is sitting in the middle one and fronts in the left and right one. The alcoves are large about 8*4*3 feet. Maybe that's why the sound could sound like out of the box. But I keep speakers on teh edge. I will post the picture tomorrow morning so it will be easier to explain.
Thank you!

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#52121 - 07/13/04 05:06 PM Re: movie dialogue question help
snakeyes Offline
aficionado

Registered: 07/13/04
Posts: 828
Loc: Newburgh, NY
Ya know Ani i have the previous onkyo model tx-sr 600 and i find the same thing. even turning up the db on the center helps but still sometimes the loud explosions will still be way over the top. I dont have axiom speakers (yet) just some sony towers and denon center and surrounds. I also should mention im still very new to this but im leaning towards just a annoying nuance of the onkyo reciver. hope this helps but probably not lol
_________________________
------------------------------------------------
Leave the gun, Take the canolis.

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#52122 - 07/14/04 01:51 AM Re: movie dialogue question help
animate_animate Offline
regular

Registered: 07/12/04
Posts: 9
I guess I have to set up my web page first. Cause I don't see how I can attach an image here.

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#52123 - 07/14/04 02:40 AM here is my image
animate_animate Offline
regular

Registered: 07/12/04
Posts: 9
http://mysite.verizon.net/res8j0od/
click on the thumbnail to see bigger size.


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#52124 - 07/14/04 07:51 AM Re: here is my image
bigjohn Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 3016
Loc: San Angelo, TX
lets make it clickable..

here is animate's system

cool lamps!!

bigjohn
_________________________
EXCUSE ME, ARE YOU THE SINGING BUSH??

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#52125 - 07/14/04 09:40 AM Re: here is my image
alan Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 3188
Loc: Toronto/New York/Dwight
Hi animate,

Looking at your photo, there is no question that the wall surfaces and reflections in the alcove where the center and the TV are placed are changing the timbral (tonal) balance of the Vp150 and inhibiting clarity.

The alcoves with the M22ti's may be having similar effects, increasing the disparity in tonal balance between the center speaker and the mains. Do you have some sort of support you could use as a temporary stand to put the VP150 on below the TV screen (and in front) to remove the alcove influence from the center?

Once you've tried that, then you can see if the tonal match and intelligibility is better. You can decide on a different setup that would not place the three front speakers in the alcoves.
Try moving the M22ti's farther apart, perhaps putting them in the center of the left and right alcoves and toeing them in a bit towards the listening position.

There may be options with stands and/or wall-mounting that could largely eliminate the problems you're having.

Regards,
_________________________
Alan Lofft,
Axiom Resident Expert

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#52126 - 07/14/04 12:14 PM Re: here is my image
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6251
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
animate,

I used to have my VP150 on a shelf suspended just under the TV. As you can see, I put it on a short stand, moved it forward out of the little alcove beneath the TV some, and flipped it over so it's aiming slightly upward toward my ears. Much mo' betta'. I'd actually like to get it out of the alcove even more, and sometines I do pull it a bit more forward, and adjust the distance and volume in my receiver's menu.


_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#52127 - 07/14/04 01:05 PM Re: here is my image
bigjohn Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 3016
Loc: San Angelo, TX
jack- were you watching 'ROCKSTAR'??

STAND UP AND SHOUT!!!

i dont know if its just me, but everytime i watch that movie, i always see dirk diggler as the lead singer.. i think its the leather pants

bigjohn
_________________________
EXCUSE ME, ARE YOU THE SINGING BUSH??

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#52128 - 07/14/04 01:30 PM Re: here is my image
animate_animate Offline
regular

Registered: 07/12/04
Posts: 9
thank you very much Alan!!! I will folow you advise this coming weekend . It sounds like a great idea.
Thank you very much everybody for the helpfull tips you gave me!!!

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#52129 - 07/14/04 02:19 PM Re: here is my image
Ajax Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/30/03
Posts: 6251
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Nah That's a Lynyrd Skynyrd concert that was being broadcast in Hi Def (not live, I assume) on INHD.
_________________________
Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton

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#52130 - 07/15/04 04:14 PM Re: movie dialogue question help
MrBill Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 85
Loc: Tucson, AZ
In reply to:

IMO, too much sub will muddy your center channel when you have it set to "small".


Interesting - many of the movies I watch could have clearer dialog IMHO. Last night I was watching a movie and noticed that the male star's dialog was very muddy and difficult to understand. So remembering this post, I quickly reduced the LFE channel by 10dB. The result was that the dialog seemed more intelligible to me. OTOH, it seems that very few movies have this dialog problem, so I returned the LFE to its original setting. Does anyone have any information from any source, or even a personal opinion suporting the idea that LFE can muddy the center channel sound, resulting in lost dialog?

- Bill

_________________________
My Home Theater

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#52131 - 07/15/04 09:28 PM Re: movie dialogue question help
Ray3 Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 2842
Loc: Rochester, NY
Late to the party as usual. Once the setup is calibrated, take the time to write down the settings for each speaker. I have found over time that tweaking the center, the two fronts or the QS8s by a db or two in a given situation makes a big difference. As Alan pointed out, there are are lots of variables in play where the audio is recorded. Nothing wron with a bit of manual intervention from time to time. Having the settings written down allow you to get everything back to where it was as needed.

I am lucky to have the Denon 3803 and MX-700 Home Theater remote. The combination allows me to control each speaker up/down by 1/2 db at a time directly from the remote. Having this control over the sub is just a small slice of heaven. Hope this helps.

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#52132 - 07/17/04 05:47 PM Re: movie dialogue question help
BigWill Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 1951
Loc: Corona, Calif. USA!!!
I believe when your center is set to small the sub plays both LFE AND the lower frequencies diverted from the center channel. The sub is then amplifying part of the center channel signal and sometimes it just isn't very good at the upper regions of that signal?
I don't know if I'm full of it or not, but I'm glad it worked for you!

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