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#54069 - 11/05/04 01:59 PM Re: OT: politics
bigjohn Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 3016
Loc: San Angelo, TX
In reply to:

I know very well how you love to correct me



no i dont

i would love to correct the fact that you are a republican, but i think thats an impossible correction to make.

i aint got nothin but love for ya bigwill. i am all about conversation, argument, and constructive criticism. all this has just been entertaining and informative. i never intended any personal attacks, nor do i feel i ever received any.

bigjohn
_________________________
EXCUSE ME, ARE YOU THE SINGING BUSH??

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#54070 - 11/05/04 02:14 PM Re: OT: politics
TurboDog1 Offline
devotee

Registered: 02/29/04
Posts: 342
"no, but i think it points out the fact that the majority of republican voting states, still use the 'slave driving, good 'ole boy network' that was prevalent 140 years ago. its the backwords attitude that to keep one's self up, you gotta keep someone else down, and make sure to hook up all your buddies in the process. its just old, wrong thinking. but obviously, the republican party has embraced that section of the vote, and has made their directive clear. we will stay rich, and keep the poor, poor. and give all the billion dollar contract to all our old business partners. *pat on the back here*pat on the back there* everyones happy.."

Man....I've tried very hard to cease posting on this thread (mostly to save my own sanity), but I have to chime in after these comments. I don't even know where to start. You guys talk about stereotypes and labels like they're the primary weapons of conservatives and then you go ahead and unleash a line of offensive crap like this?

I have said on numerous occasions that I used to live in the North and used to be a bleeding heart liberal (not a label, a reality). I used to hold the highest disdain for the South based upon stereotypes of hooded toothless wonders trying to keep us in the dark ages. Then, in a purposeful attempt to insert myself into something completely out of the box, I went to grad school in Nashville, the epicenter of the South in my mind.

The problem w/ stereotypes is that they are rarely indicative of reality. They have some basis either in isolated instances or in history, but they're rarely completely accurate. This is what I found when I got down here. Yes, I found a more religious-based mentality, which I have never gotten fully used to. But, what I didn't find is metropolitan areas rampant w/ gun-toting Jethros blazing up the crosses and terrorizing the blacks. Yes, there are your fair share of red-necks, but no more than the bubbas up North. It's all a bunch of insensitive hype created by hateful and ignorant people who are so damn idealistic that they lack a solid grasp on reality.

You (and I in the past) hold Liberals up on this elite pedestal from which you look down on the ignorant church-going evil conservatives. The problem is that you are the ones being ignorant and close-minded. Has it occured to you that your party isn't comprised of fully educated "enlightened" people? Has it occured to you that a significant portion of your base are uneducated (maybe poor) people that don't give a crap about the issues, except for what the government is going to give them?...what they are entitled to? Your boy Kerry is the pinnacle of this ignorance and condescension and it bit him in the a$$. He sat up in his multi-million dollar personal jet and tried to act like he represented the common man and it didn't sell, except to those sheep who heard only "blah blah blah money for me blah blah blah keeping me down blah blah blah evil conservatives blah blah blah money for me".

My suggestion is that you might want to do a little soul-searching about this election and what it means to you and your party. If anything, this election has proven that the average Joe worker isn't going to bite on this class warfare drivel. Your party will have to reevaluate it's view of the "average middle-class worker" if it's ever going to get a grip on sub-urban and rural America....or even urban America. This type of rhetoric is not going to cut it.


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#54071 - 11/05/04 02:44 PM Re: OT: politics
bigjohn Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 3016
Loc: San Angelo, TX
In reply to:

Has it occured to you that your party isn't comprised of fully educated "enlightened" people?



you just explained george w, to a tee.

maybe what i said was an 'exaggerated' stereotype, but it is still a valid description. but i see where you are coming from, and i agree with some of your points.

and i couldnt agree more with your comments on kerry. i kinda knew this race was doomed from the get-go. they gave us a horrible candidate, and an inexperienced vice candidate. he parades as the 'underdog' yet he has never been the underdog his entire life. regardless of all that, it still goes to show how bad the american public is and was willing to make a change from the last 4 years. bush won, i aint trying to change that, but it should send up some danger signals to republicans. he barely squeaked it out, and look at who he was running against. imagine if the democrats would have got their $hit together 12 months ago, and given us someone worth voting for.. and why they didnt, is the biggest reason this election was lost. the republicans didnt win, the democrats were stupid enought to give it away.

bigjohn
_________________________
EXCUSE ME, ARE YOU THE SINGING BUSH??

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#54072 - 11/05/04 03:47 PM Re: OT: politics
TurboDog1 Offline
devotee

Registered: 02/29/04
Posts: 342
Glass half full or half empty?

Perhaps you should see this in a different light. Instead of seeing this as a red flag, consider that the Republicans might see this as a positive that he won the election even in the environment where he had eroded his base w/ the mess in Iraq. I for one was surprised that he won. His supporters rallied, but I did fear that Iraq was going to be his downfall. Just think how much he might have pulverized Kerry had the war in Iraq been going smoother.

...just an alternative viewpoint. I think that they realize that there is a disconnect between the Republicans and the Left. However, I don't think that they have a clue how to bridge that gap. What I was elluding to before is that the Democrats have an even larger problem than trying to gain traction w/ those right of center. Their problem is the erosion that we're seeing amongst their own base. I have not stats readily available, but I believe that they are seeing some losses on all fronts (women, hispanics, blacks, etc). This I would attribute partially to their continued emphasis on the "oppressed middle/lower class" and the class warfare. Not everyone in the Democratic party is poor, downtrodden, and oppressed. Not everyone in the party is a victim waiting on the edge of their seats for the great white government savior to make their lives better. Until they get off that extreme Left tangent, I don't see them rebuilding that base or gaining any penetration outside of urban areas.

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#54073 - 11/05/04 04:34 PM Re: OT: politics
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16268
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
A while ago I posted a link about the BBC documentary The Power of Nightmares: The Rise of the Politics of Fear. This wasn't aired in the US (unless you get BBC2). I found all 3 episodes online and downloaded them. The documentary makes a pretty good case against the neo-cons and how they have used their unique position of power to distort facts and to use fear in order to push their agenda and their own vision of our destiny as a country.

I'd like to share the episodes with you so you can make your own conclusions. Each episode is an hour long, so the file sizes are pretty large. If you'd like me to put them all on a DVD-R for you, I'm willing to do so. Just PM me.

The first 2 episodes require the latest version of the DivX codec, available here.

Episode 1: Baby It's Cold Outside - 380mb
Episode 2: The Phantom Victory - 344mb
Episode 3: The Shadow in the Cave - 586mb
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#54074 - 11/05/04 08:35 PM Re: OT: politics
INANE Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/04/04
Posts: 1660
Loc: Omaha, Nebraska
To me this election came down to two kinds of ppl (mainly).

Those that had such a dislike for GW that it became anyone but him. These ppl obviously found something in the way he spoke and of course his decisions that they didn't trust him and plain hated the guy.

The other half of ppl could not have been more opposite. They actually liked the guy to the first groups dismay. They also trusted him and believe in the fight he has undertaken to protect us all.

Everything I've read, seen, friends and other ppl I've talked to have lead me to this conclusion. Obviously I am in the second group but I have friends that are in the first. I really think thats what it mainly came down to. Perception and beliefs.
_________________________
-Ben
HT v2.0 !
HT v1.0

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#54075 - 11/05/04 09:10 PM Re: OT: politics
BigWill Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 05/01/03
Posts: 1951
Loc: Corona, Calif. USA!!!
"1) Those county by county maps are very misleading. The election is not decided by land mass, it's decided by population."

I don't think they're misleading at all. We know there are large concentrations of people in urban areas. They vote for the left for a number of reasons.

But that is only one community of voters. Outside of that community are huge numbers of smaller communities that are clinging to traditional values. They have been under attack from liberals and judicial activists for 40 years, yet they turned out big time in this last election.

BTW, what qualifies the people of these large, but isolated, urban communities to legislate whether bigjohn's community can say a prayer before a high school football game? I'm an atheist, but wtf! give allow people the ability to determine the values of their own communities.

Would you like it if the folks in the IE wanted the gov't to restrict gay public displays of affection in west LA? I'm guessing you would politely tell us to mind our own business, eh?



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#54076 - 11/06/04 01:45 AM Re: OT: politics
spiffnme Offline
axiomite

Registered: 04/01/03
Posts: 5214
Loc: Los Angeles
Need I remind you that 11 states just ammended their constitutions to prevent me from ever getting married in their states? If that's not the small red communities dictating what I can or can't do, what is?


_________________________
"A nation cannot prosper long, when it favors only the prosperous." -President Barack Obama

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#54077 - 11/06/04 01:16 PM Re: OT: politics
bigjohn Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 3016
Loc: San Angelo, TX
In reply to:

legislate whether bigjohn's community can say a prayer before a high school football game?




our school district chooses to have what they call, "a moment of silence for private reflection". and the guy over the P.A. even says, "please use this time to reflect on the players, the students, your family and friends, and those sitting amongst you in the stadium". i kid you not, its the funniest thing in the world. a few weeks back while at a game, during our 'reflection' time, i heard a lady about three rows back ask, "didnt they used to call this prayer?"

the loopholes that we have to go through, just to have a prayer at a football game is ridiculious. this issue has left me confused and baffled for years.

bigjohn
_________________________
EXCUSE ME, ARE YOU THE SINGING BUSH??

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#54078 - 11/06/04 01:28 PM Re: OT: politics
craigsub Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/15/03
Posts: 1306
Spiff... It has been a while. My gay cousin and I have come up with our "wish list" for everyone.

Get the government completely out of the marriage business. How ?

1. Abolish the current tax code completely and replace it with a National sales tax. Now there is no more marriage penalty, no more hiding income (as a side note, the Kerry family had a net tax rate of 12 % ... pretty good for someone making $5 mill per year NET). And yes, plenty of super-rich Republicans pay the same low rate.

When you do this, you get rid of favorable rules for married people... etc...

2. Allow ANYONE the option of Private Social Security ... when you turn 67, ALL that money you put in is yours, and can be given to anyone you want.

3. Eliminate Estate taxes. Again, having the ability to give moneys to anyone you want works.

NOW... with these three major policy changes, Marriage becomes a religious decision. Anyone could then join a church which DOES allow Gay marriage, and everyone is happy.

Plus, we get to tax drug dealers, prostitutes, and the super-rich no longer get to make 7% TAX FREE on their money...

By the way, the National Sales tax has a built in credit for the less well off to ensure they pay nothing in taxes, and EVERYTHING they earn, they keep.
_________________________
Remember, this is a HOBBY

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