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#53949 - 10/21/04 05:26 PM Re: OT: Politics
jorge016 Offline
local

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 248
Loc: Minnesota
BigWill There's precious little to like about Kerry-I've said that many times in this forum. There's just a helluva lot less to like in Bush/Cheney. Their arrogance and deception have absolutely diminished the US in the eyes of the world. It pisses me off to no end to watch this administration blunder about-yet 47% of this country think that he's been annointed by God to lead us. I've got 2 little 6-month old boys and I look at them and think that in all probability we'll still be in Iraq in 20 years and this mess will be theirs. Here's your party line-I'd rather this country be led at wartime by someone who's done something beside run a very poor major league baseball team. Look at Bush's career and tell me what qualified him to sit in the Oval Office-must have been his bloodline. For all his BS and rhetoric I'd rather have a man like Kerry who had guts enough to fight for his country rather than hide behind his politician daddy.
_________________________
M22's, VP150, QS4's, HK 630, HSU VTF3-MKII

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#53950 - 10/21/04 06:30 PM Re: OT: Politics
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16289
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
Yes, but you specifically said "whipped into a frenzy." No matter how misguided, there's no greater aid to frenzy-whipping than being able to point your finger and say "Look! See what they're doing to us now?"
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#53951 - 10/21/04 06:38 PM Re: OT: Politics
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
Jorge, I disagree with your premise that Bush is responsible for our "diminished [status] in the eyes of the world." I also strongly disagree with the absurd contention that Bush misled or deceived us. As to the former, the EU was already going its own direction. That's why we couldn't even hope to maintain a sanctions regime against Iraq. Support for economic sanctions was failing - don't you remember the cries that the US led sanctions regime was responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi babies? You weren't one of those who believed that, were you? In reality, Saddam, the UN Secretariat, and 3 Security Council Member states, France, Russia and China, were not only scamming the Oil for Food program for Billions of dollars, they were using the "food" money for weapons, palaces and other perks for the Ba'athist Nazi leadership of Iraq.

UN inspections could not work without totally open cooperation and transparency from the Iraqi government. Saddam Hussein made a monkey out of those inspectors. If he had nothing to hide, then he must have taken the chance of US reaction based on French assurances that they would veto any resolution for US use of force. The UN and the left took the position, "please fool me," and Hussein obliged. After 9/11 the US absolutely could not take the chance that Iraq would acquire more WMD ... yes, "more." We know they had them, because they used them to the cost of hundreds of thousands if not millions of lives. So, all this moaning that the Bush administration "deceived" the people and the world community, or abandoned our traditional allies is nonsense. That alliance was dead - died with the evaporation of the Soviet threat to Europe. Personally, I'd rather an administration prepared to act for our national defense and interests than an administration which requires the support of the EU.

Where is NATO now? Do they have our back? Are they willing to send any forces to help stabilize Iraq? The answer is no.

Personally, I'm not an optimist - Bush may believe that democracy has a chance in an Arab nation. I don't. The Kurds in the north could support a democratic form of government, but they are not Arabs. The idea of Sunis or Shias supporting democracy is absurd, but like I said, Bush is an optimist - maybe he's right.

I think many of Bush's policy positions are wrong - stem cell research, refusal to obtain discounts from drug companies for large scale government purchases ... but for me, the over riding issue is what is referred to as the War on Terrorism. I think it is more accurate to call it the Jihadist Islamo-Fascist war on the non-Muslim world, but that would be a politically incorrect mouthfull. IMHO Bush, the simple ass kicking cowboy gets it. The French don't. There's evil afoot, and he's going after it. That is a strong moral voice. When Bush announced, "You're either with us or against us," he was at his best - simple, forceful - recognizing that evil in the world had acted so boldly on 9/11 that we couldn't sweep it under the rug any longer - no more responsive gestures like Clinton did by lobbing a few cruise missiles here or there. We are at war - but a war not of our choosing or making. Better win. Only Bush has winning as a policy goal.
_________________________
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#53952 - 10/21/04 07:06 PM Re: OT: Politics
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16289
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
In reply to:

If indeed Saddam did not posess the WMD stockpiles...


You've got to be kidding me that you still have doubts about this.
In reply to:

Eventually, he would have been - and at that time he would have been stronger and more dangerous.


It brings a warm feeling to my heart to know we've got these hypothetical situations covered.
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#53953 - 10/21/04 07:44 PM Re: OT: Politics
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
PMB, how can you seriously contend that there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein had no WMD? He used them!!! If he destroyed them all, then he was a fool for playing games with the UN inspectors. Hans Blix's boys needed total cooperation from Hussein because Blix's boys are the guys you call when you DON'T want to find something. Why cover up if there's nothing to cover up?

PMB, it amazes me that a person as intelligent as you obviously are would question the proposition that Saddam Hussein's Ba'athist Nazi police state would only get stronger and present a growing threat. Of course this proposition is true. The sanctions regime was collapsing - Saddam would have had the enormous revenues from sale of oil and the world would have demonstrated that it had neither the resolve or moral force to stop his expansionist criminal policies. Oh, did you forget Iraq invaded Kuwait and threatened to invade Saudi Arabia? Oh, I suppose Iraq's launching of dozens of SCUD missiles into Israeli neighborhoods doesn't foretell for you what the future with an oil rich Ba'athist regime in Iraq would have brought. You don't need a crystal ball for that one PMB, or you can play dumb and pretend everything would have been OK.
_________________________
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#53954 - 10/22/04 01:15 AM Re: OT: Politics
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16289
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia


Oh, but life is so much simpler this way!
_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#53955 - 10/22/04 01:33 AM Re: OT: Politics
BrenR Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 3602
Loc: Winnipeg MB Canada
Oh, hell, I don't read this thread, just view it to keep the New Messages number from piling up... but that says a whole lot even just scrolling through on my way to the next page button!!!

Bren R.

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#53956 - 10/22/04 01:34 AM Re: OT: Politics
2x6spds Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2726
Loc: CA, USA
Sorry PMB, I obviously over estimated you. I won't ask you to try to reason your way through this discussion any more.
_________________________
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

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#53957 - 10/22/04 01:44 AM Re: OT: Politics
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16289
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
Whew! I feel as if a great weight has been lifted from my shoulders. It's like all the terrorists have gone home to their mommies, Saddam and Osama have committed suicide at the exact same moment and left letters of apology to the world beside them, and the Pope has reconsidered his position on birth control in third world countries.

... and I think to myself "What a wonderful world."
Oooh yeaaaaaahhhh.....

_________________________
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

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#53958 - 10/22/04 11:22 AM Re: OT: Politics
Riffman Offline
local

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 242
the "isolated from the world" is a red herring. we live in the age of global capitalism and are furthest from isolation than ever before. its simply a garbage idea fed to the uneducated masses. a policy dispute on Iraq doesn't have anything to do with isolating any country.

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